[maya_he3d] rob van der bragt?

[Matt Estela]

who let him in? ;)

-matt

[Horvátth Szabolcs]

> who let him in? ;)
>

Sorry Matt, I've made a serious mistake, I resign. :))

Szabolcs

[rvdbragt]

Ah, it's good to feel welcome!!! I've missed you too!

;O)

How are you guys?

Rob

[matt estela]

Heh, I'm good, settling back into Sydney and life at Animal Logic..
hitting crunch time now, lotta shots, not much time, usual story.

We're locked to maya2008 for this project (legend of the guardians,
aka 'that zack snyder owl film'), no time to play with maya 2010 yet.

What's the general consensus? Any good?


On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 7:11 PM, rvdbragt <rvdb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How are you guys?

[Kiernan]

2010? You really are busy. ;)

KM

[matt estela]

ha, well spotted! :)

seriously though; RnD got all excited a month ago because we got 2010
rolled out for testing... Film does NOT move at the same pace as
commercials...

On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Kiernan <kiern...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2010? You really are busy. ;)
>
> KM
>
> On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 9:36 AM, matt estela <ma...@tokeru.com> wrote:

>> <snip>

>> We're locked to maya2008 for this project (legend of the guardians,
>> aka 'that zack snyder owl film'), no time to play with maya 2010 yet.

>> <snip?

[David Lawson]

Its way to buggy for us to use yet.

[Stefan Andersson]

unfortantly I can only agree. 2008 or 2009 works fine, not really sure what to benefit from using 2010 or Qt buggy 2011.

-stefan

--
- Stefan Andersson * Senior Artist * Mad Crew
- Roddargatan 8 / 116 20  Stockholm / SWEDEN
- p: +46 (0)8 668 2713 * w: http://www.madcrew.se

[Phinnaeus OConnor]

Hey Rob, hows it going? you guys used 2011 on a project recently at the Mill didn't you?

I'm using the the hotfix at the moment, nParticle stuff. The new surface tension and particle rotation has added a whole new level. 

Getting used to the Gui now too. :)

Phin

---

From: David Lawson <davidl...@googlemail.com>
To: maya...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, May 19, 2010 10:10:20 AM
Subject: Re: [maya_he3d] Re: rob van der bragt?

[David Lawson]

Don't get me wrong 2011 is the best release in terms of features and GUI improvements for a while but at the moment its to buggy for us. I haven't tried the Hotfix hopefully it will sort a load of things out. The Linux file browser brought a small tear to my eye. particle rotation and fluid auto resize rocks.

[rvdbragt]

Hi Phin,

2010 is 2009... But, for the record, we are using both 2010 and 2011
here. Most of the time it still is 2010 though, as 2011 is indeed a
little more buggy than we'd like it. Also, the QT GUI behaves a little
different when we run our custom scripts. textScrollList now can't
display for example less than 12 or 13 rows. Some scripts here use
only a couple of rows, so in 2011 the GUI layout no longer works as
expected. We haven't installed the hotfix yet, so hopefully it will be
better after that. The refraction bug on blinns and other shaders and
the crash when converting light types is hopefully fixed with the
hotfix.

Just for fun, we have also just moved to Fedora11, which is a bit
moody. So, it's always hard to know what causes the crash of flashing
GUI when you hit the spacebar in the viewport.

Whilst the new gui has introduced some new issues, it is definitely
getting better. I can only compliment AD for having made the move. It
was a brave move, but "out with the old and in with the new" is a good
attitude to have here! Just hope the channelbox, connection editor,
hypergraph/hypershade (need to merge into one versatile tool),
outliner and AE are seriously going to be improved soon. Not just
visually, but functionality-wise. We need more node based focus in
Maya. It's all good and well that Maya's architecture is claiming to
be node based, but unfortunately many things are not node-based at
all. Too many actions/tools aren't nodes, but scripts. Too much trial
& error (ie. create delete re-create). Even the node graphing,
channelbox and AE do not allow you to really work with the nodes. No
easy way to enable/disable nodes (unless you go to the AE and set node
states one by one), no re-ordering, no elegant container/asset based
workflow, no multi node editing via the AE (only the channelbox allows
you to set some common attributes at the same time), no easy re-
linking of nodes to a new node, or replacing nodes, or caching a node
graph up to a point and freezing the intput graph (until user requests
recalculation), no easy connecting of nodes (using the current ctrl
+drag+drop or connection editor often is slow or faulty), not enough
node types to manipulate data and no data/geo creation, etc... Oh
yes, compounds (as xsi or houdini use) are great and a similar thing
is possible with containers/assets in Maya, but unfortunately the work
flow and graphing is cluttered. Also laying out selected nodes in Maya
(like compositors do) is not possible and laying-out/re-graphing asset
contents doesn't work (all nodes are on top of each other).

Generally, Maya is not node based enough. Which is a problem. The good
news is that I think in the next years, they will/should release some
improvements on this front. On the gui front, I hope some issues are
going to be addressed soon due to the new QT initiative and on the
core front, I hope it will follow soon. As users, it's up to us to
keep the pressure and to push for innovation, not nParticle style
rewrites of the old particle system, but a new way of doing things
better/faster/easier. I'm not so much blaming nParticles here, but
more that AD isn't focusing on making Maya a LOT more node based.

Don't get me wrong, nParticles has some nice features, but the new way
to do things is to empower the user base. Give them the tools (nodes
and interface), and they will create what they need. Not everybody
knows C++, but many people understand node structures. Creating new
deformers and amazing effects needs a more procedural toolset for
artists and TDs. There is no reason for Autodesk to get involved in
answering every small request, if the package empowers the user.
Autodesk should focus on the bigger picture and supply more powerful
nodes and overall tools. The great news is Autodesk owns xsi and
Houdini has done many things right for years. It's time to borrow and
improve ideas. We saw a similar thing happen in the past with MEL.
Empowered users made great tools and customised Maya left, right and
center. The same should now be done for the core architecture and GUI.
Maya is already on it's way, but AD needs to show users that that is
their intension.

Okay, I'll get of my soapbox now.

Regards,
Rob

On May 19, 11:01 am, David Lawson <davidlaws...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Don't get me wrong 2011 is the best release in terms of features and GUI
> improvements for a while but at the moment its to buggy for us. I haven't
> tried the Hotfix hopefully it will sort a load of things out. The Linux file
> browser brought a small tear to my eye. particle rotation and fluid auto
> resize rocks.
>

> On 19 May 2010 10:23, Phinnaeus OConnor <phinna...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Hey Rob, hows it going? you guys used 2011 on a project recently at the
> > Mill didn't you?
>
> > I'm using the the hotfix at the moment, nParticle stuff. The new surface
> > tension and particle rotation has added a whole new level.
>
> > Getting used to the Gui now too. :)
>
> > Phin
>

> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* David Lawson <davidlaws...@googlemail.com>
> > *To:* maya...@googlegroups.com
> > *Sent:* Wed, May 19, 2010 10:10:20 AM
> > *Subject:* Re: [maya_he3d] Re: rob van der bragt?

>
> > Its way to buggy for us to use yet.
>

> > On 19 May 2010 02:53, matt estela <m...@tokeru.com> wrote:
>
> >> ha, well spotted! :)
>
> >> seriously though; RnD got all excited a month ago because we got 2010
> >> rolled out for testing... Film does NOT move at the same pace as
> >> commercials...
>

> >> On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Kiernan <kiernan....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > 2010? You really are busy. ;)
>
> >> > KM
>

> >> > On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 9:36 AM, matt estela <m...@tokeru.com> wrote:
> >> >> <snip>
> >> >> We're locked to maya2008 for this project (legend of the guardians,
> >> >> aka 'that zack snyder owl film'), no time to play with maya 2010 yet.
> >> >> <snip?
>
>
>

>  33A.gif
> < 1KViewDownload

[rvdbragt]

In case anybody has a comment about the length of my post... Well, get
used to it! Hahaha! Every once in a while it's good to challenge your
dyslexia. :O)
No, just kidding. I'll keep it bite sized as much as possible.

Rob

[stephenkmann]

In response to your textScrollList problem, I was having that problem on 2011 beta. but in release I no longer have this issue.

On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 9:59 AM, rvdbragt <rvdb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Phin,

different when we run our custom scripts. textScrollList now can't
display for example less than 12 or 13 rows. Some scripts here use

 

-=s

[Phinnaeus OConnor]

Hey Rob,

Well what can you say to that!

I agree on every level with what you just said and boy did you say it ;)

its revenge of the nodes 2012 then...

Bring it on.

P

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: rvdbragt <rvdb...@gmail.com>
To: maya_he3d <maya...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, May 19, 2010 2:59:19 PM
Subject: [maya_he3d] Re: rob van der bragt?

Hi Phin,

2010 is 2009... But, for the record, we are using both 2010 and 2011
here. Most of the time it still is 2010 though, as 2011 is indeed a
little more buggy than we'd like it. Also, the QT GUI behaves a little

different when we run our custom scripts. textScrollList now can't
display for example less than 12 or 13 rows. Some scripts here use

> Don't get me wrong 2011 is the best release in terms of features and GUI
> improvements for a while but at the moment its to buggy for us. I haven't
> tried the Hotfix hopefully it will sort a load of things out. The Linux file
> browser brought a small tear to my eye. particle rotation and fluid auto
> resize rocks.
>

> On 19 May 2010 10:23, Phinnaeus OConnor <phinna...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Hey Rob, hows it going? you guys used 2011 on a project recently at the
> > Mill didn't you?
>
> > I'm using the the hotfix at the moment, nParticle stuff. The new surface
> > tension and particle rotation has added a whole new level.
>
> > Getting used to the Gui now too. :)
>
> > Phin
>

> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* David Lawson <davidlaws...@googlemail.com>
> > *To:* maya...@googlegroups.com

> > *Sent:* Wed, May 19, 2010 10:10:20 AM
> > *Subject:* Re: [maya_he3d] Re: rob van der bragt?

>
> > Its way to buggy for us to use yet.
>

> > On 19 May 2010 02:53, matt estela <m...@tokeru.com> wrote:
>
> >> ha, well spotted! :)
>
> >> seriously though; RnD got all excited a month ago because we got 2010
> >> rolled out for testing... Film does NOT move at the same pace as
> >> commercials...
>

> >> On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Kiernan <kiernan....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > 2010? You really are busy. ;)
>
> >> > KM
>

> >> > On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 9:36 AM, matt estela <m...@tokeru.com> wrote:
> >> >> <snip>
> >> >> We're locked to maya2008 for this project (legend of the guardians,
> >> >> aka 'that zack snyder owl film'), no time to play with maya 2010 yet.
> >> >> <snip?
>
>
>

> 33A.gif
> < 1KViewDownload

[David Lawson]

for once Rob I have to agree with you..

[rvdbragt]

Hi guys,

If we are to make a list of nodes that would help the user a lot,
which nodes would you like to see in Maya? Or even better, do you
think that Maya should step away from hard coded nodes, and apply the
ICE approach for everything in the long run? In other words, the nodal
architecture is nodes made out of nodes running at a low-level
(Houdini/ICE style compounds), rather than a high level flat network
without nested nodes (Maya)

For me, the ideal scenario is that all nodes in Maya get moved over to
an ICE style compound (asset/container) approach and replace over time
the original Maya all-in-one nodes. I would like to manipulate my
particles with nodes and design my own deformers. nParticles should
have been node based to start with, but surely this is still possible?

I would love to see nucleus particles go nodal and deformers first. It
benefits the most. Then I would like to see geometry generation and
clever selection nodes, who can drive selection on objects based on
parameter such as facing ratio, orientation, size, edge type, light
intensity, texture, etc... Next would be fluids and hair. With this in
place, we could create amazing results already and from there we can
grow Maya's ability. Of course, a lot of these nodes should really use
ICE's approach. So, a lot of nodes will use low-level nodes and will
be pre-build by AD and put in the library of nodes.

As mentioned last time, the work flow has lots to do with the succes,
but for now I expect that to happen when AD addresses the nodal
architecture.

Rob

[mgw]

that's a nobrainer for me!

maya is the only 3d software which has no node based particle/dynamic
system!!!

that's what we need! especially fx artist would love to see
multithreaded and multicore simulations. having 8 or 16 cores in one
machine is useless if you can only simulate on one core!!!

scripting is just way too slow so we would need a modular system like ICE.

I don't even want to mention maya rigid dynamics which are the slowest!

so yes, I'm waiting for maya 2012 to have an ICE like system for all of
their dynamics and please, please, please multithreading for simulations.


cheers,
michael

[Carlos Cidrais]

If we're talking dream scenarios here, then I would like to see ( alongside the ICE cannibalization you've just described ) the integration of Mudbox in the Maya environment.

Decent high-poly modelling and texture painting tools are a must nowadays: I don't get why we have to move into a different application to do it.

Oh right..I remember now...it's the same reason why they don't do the ICE cannibalization. Why should Autodesk sell 1 app when they can sell 3?

Carlos

--
Carlos Cidrais
Lighting/Generalist Technical Director
http://www.carloscidrais.com

[rvdbragt]

Hi Michael,

Yes, agreed. Dynamics and effects generally is top of the list for
nodal workflows. And with a stronger nodal focus, you would expect
multi-threading becomes easier to implement.

I would imagine that rigids are on the cards some point very soon for
AD (since it's pretty much nCloth without the cloth effects), but if
they are to introduce something like ICE inside Maya (which is a
must), rigids might be delayed further. They can only do so much at a
time.

From where I stand though, and probably most others, if the nodal core
is not revised/improved, the new features build on the old core aren't
going to cut it. They will quickly loose their novelty. Empowering the
user is the only way forward.

Rob

[rvdbragt]

Hi Carlos,

Yes, ICE cannibalization... Yummm! ;O)

Yeah, I agree that Mudbox style support in Maya would be great!

But, it's an age-old dilemma, since there are up and downsides to
integrating Mudbox or not. Look at integrated trackers or compositors
(Maya, Houdini, XSI), They hardly ever last.

Often, you'll find that the person creating a model/texture is a
specialised person. He/she doesn't really need the overhead of loads
of other features. Just like tracking or compositing, they are done by
separate individuals. Also, from a company point of view, having
separate apps, means you can have two people working at the same time,
rather than buying two more expensive Maya licenses. Mudbox and Zbrush
(and maybe in the future Mari) are fast apps, because they focus on
just a section of the pipeline and they perfect the apps independently
of the monster 3d apps. And, externalising gives manufacturers the
ability to support multiple tools at once (Maya, Soft, Houdini, Max,
C4D, Modo, Lightwave, etc..).

My guess is that in several years time, all 3d apps (next-gen?) will
have it build in though!

Rob

[rvdbragt]

As David Lawson correctly suggested just now (he sits near me in the
studio), the topic on Maya's nodes is better served as new thread.
Of course, posting a "Hi Rob" or "Who let him in?" is still cool
here.

;O)

Thanks,
Rob