Roof breakdown
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Juan
Nov 13, 2025, 3:50:08 PM11/13/25
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Si and Di's video in el Gordo (Cueva Hoyuca) this October shows a gentle shower of particles falling from the roof. This prompted a 'conversion' with Anthropic's AI assistant Claude. The responses ranged through granular disaggregation, catastophic roof falls, draught testing and health implications. I found the process interesting from both the AI and caving perspectives!
The developing 'conversation' can be followed here on the Matienzo Caves website. (You're now unlikely to sit still in a chamber without waving your LED light around.)https://www.matienzocaves.org.uk/science/Breakdown/0107-jc-2025a-RoofBreakdown.htm
The developing 'conversation' can be followed here on the Matienzo Caves website. (You're now unlikely to sit still in a chamber without waving your LED light around.)https://www.matienzocaves.org.uk/science/Breakdown/0107-jc-2025a-RoofBreakdown.htm
Patrick Devine
Nov 13, 2025, 4:20:53 PM11/13/25
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Juan
That's another rain forest destroyed then.
Has a partical shower been seen elsewhere in Matienzo or is this unique?
It would be easy enough to make some sample collectors but they would require careful placement/recovery and there's no way I will get in to el Gordo to do it.
Pat
Si and Di's video in el Gordo (Cueva Hoyuca) this October shows a gentle shower of particles falling from the roof. This prompted a 'conversion' with Anthropic's AI assistant Claude. The responses ranged through granular disaggregation, catastophic roof falls, draught testing and health implications. I found the process interesting from both the AI and caving perspectives!The developing 'conversation' can be followed here on the Matienzo Caves website. (You're now unlikely to sit still in a chamber without waving your LED light around.)https://www.matienzocaves.org.uk/science/Breakdown/0107-jc-2025a-RoofBreakdown.htm
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Amata Hinkle
Nov 13, 2025, 4:44:24 PM11/13/25
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Agreed, “AI” use like thats just…no thanks.
I will say I read particle shower as in reference to the amazing Auroras as I forgot the topic briefly! But speaking of, anyone over there enjoying them? Had a show here in the us southeast two nights ago. Was almost this bright to my eye! If we are seeing them this far south I thought surely maybe some ya’all did too!
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Juan
Nov 14, 2025, 4:41:09 AM11/14/25
to Matienzo Caves
This effect can be seen again in the Trdient Passages video, https://youtu.be/VxYFKsqhyZk at 6:35. In this case there may be suit dust and "caver heat plume" involved! The particles have only become really noticeable with modern strong LED beams.
I asked Claude (of course) how much energy was used during that roof breakdown conversation. The answer is here.
Terry Whitaker
Nov 14, 2025, 4:56:25 AM11/14/25
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Hi Amata
No Aurora Spotting feasible here in Southern Scotland; unremitting cloud rain and wind
T
At 21:44 13/11/2025 +0000, you wrote:
No Aurora Spotting feasible here in Southern Scotland; unremitting cloud rain and wind
T
At 21:44 13/11/2025 +0000, you wrote:
I will say I read particle shower as in reference to the amazing Auroras as I forgot the topic briefly! But speaking of, anyone over there enjoying them? Had a show here in the us southeast two nights ago. Was almost this bright to my eye! If we are seeing them this far south I thought surely maybe some ya’all did too!
Amata Hinkle, MS, CPDT-KA
♡ Delight in Every Individual ♡
Cave Bio Lab Dog Trainer Photographer
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On Thursday, 11/13/25 at 15:21 Patrick Devine <p...@devine.xyz> wrote:
- Juan
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Dr Terence M. Whitaker,
4, Crowtrees,
Low Bentham
Via LANCASTER
LA2 7EE
UK
Tel. +44 015242 62269
Mob. +44 07407 141147
Mob. +44 07543 794036
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Patrick Devine
Nov 14, 2025, 9:02:21 AM11/14/25
to matienzocaves
Damned by its own analysis.
And let's not forget the energy and pollution connected to the construction and decommissioning of the data centre, telecom system, servers, power station etc. Ooooh, I am sounding like an eco warrior. More like a neo Luddite.
Pat
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David Bell
Nov 14, 2025, 11:13:52 AM11/14/25
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Hmmm,
Data centre power consumption carbon footprint seems a lot lower than air / car / ferry travel carbon footprint.
It seems it's less damaging to "explore" using technology rather than visiting in person ...
You can't win either way, so don't try.
Dave.
Data centre power consumption carbon footprint seems a lot lower than air / car / ferry travel carbon footprint.
It seems it's less damaging to "explore" using technology rather than visiting in person ...
You can't win either way, so don't try.
Dave.
Terry Whitaker
Nov 14, 2025, 4:57:09 PM11/14/25
to matien...@googlegroups.com
Hi Juan et al.
As you suggested in one of your conjectures about the origin of the 'particles' spotted in El Gordo I would suggest that the particles are probably present in many places in caves as well as in large chambers.
I think they are likely to be very small droplets of water (less than1 µm [Microns] condensing in the air and dropping out in cave areas with low air movement. Effectively we are now able to see a very thin mist in which very few droplets are being formed by condensation and not a dust which usually has particles greater than 1 µm in diameter
Their reflections have now become obvious in these days of ultra-bright caving lamps.
Regards
Terry
As you suggested in one of your conjectures about the origin of the 'particles' spotted in El Gordo I would suggest that the particles are probably present in many places in caves as well as in large chambers.
I think they are likely to be very small droplets of water (less than1 µm [Microns] condensing in the air and dropping out in cave areas with low air movement. Effectively we are now able to see a very thin mist in which very few droplets are being formed by condensation and not a dust which usually has particles greater than 1 µm in diameter
Their reflections have now become obvious in these days of ultra-bright caving lamps.
Regards
Terry
Amata Hinkle
Nov 14, 2025, 11:04:15 PM11/14/25
to matien...@googlegroups.com
Google wants to put a nuclear reactor here back online to power a new data center for this shit; and use water from our river. Its a big thorn in my side right now. We are already losing species due to climate change warming the waters and this will increase it a few more degrees.
Im joining Terry on this one.
1990s internet was the best. We should stop at that level of tech. (:
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Amata
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Amata Hinkle
Nov 14, 2025, 11:08:09 PM11/14/25
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Sorry, I meant Im joining Pat. The emails came in off i got the wrong name lol. See? Dumb trying to be smart aps ruining orders of emails lol
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Amata
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Juan
Nov 15, 2025, 5:38:52 AM11/15/25
to Matienzo Caves
Hi Terry, I couldn't let your water droplet hypothesis stand without putting it through Claude! The response can be seen at the base of the web site page: https://www.matienzocaves.org.uk/science/Breakdown/0107-jc-2025a-RoofBreakdown.htm
Juan
Nov 17, 2025, 7:06:14 AM11/17/25
to Matienzo Caves
An observation from Toby Chilton, first published on the Matienzo caves Facebook page:
When the collapse happened just beyond The Pillars Of Hercules, the Biggo/Hoyuca Rocky Horror connection (myself, Big Nose, Slug and Richard Greenslade) there were VERY fine particles falling through the choke as we went in. As we came back out I was aware of a quietish hissing noise which I saw was caused by grain of sand size particles falling to the right hand side of the route out. Then the collapse started.
I understand that miners take any unexplained small particles falling from the roof (ie they haven't disturbed themselves and are not aware of anything else that has done so) as a sign of imminent collapse and get out immediately.
I'd urge caution!
It would be interesting if movement activated cameras/ sensors could be placed, without wandering around the chamber, sound activated may work.
Having experienced the change from fine particles to boulders/blocks falling and seen how fast this can happen I'd rather stay in the Bar!
When the collapse happened just beyond The Pillars Of Hercules, the Biggo/Hoyuca Rocky Horror connection (myself, Big Nose, Slug and Richard Greenslade) there were VERY fine particles falling through the choke as we went in. As we came back out I was aware of a quietish hissing noise which I saw was caused by grain of sand size particles falling to the right hand side of the route out. Then the collapse started.
I understand that miners take any unexplained small particles falling from the roof (ie they haven't disturbed themselves and are not aware of anything else that has done so) as a sign of imminent collapse and get out immediately.
I'd urge caution!
It would be interesting if movement activated cameras/ sensors could be placed, without wandering around the chamber, sound activated may work.
Having experienced the change from fine particles to boulders/blocks falling and seen how fast this can happen I'd rather stay in the Bar!
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