Multiple process GTAW+SMAW Process,

[Weld Giant]

Hello welding expert,

 

 

We have approved WPS, GTAW+SMAW ( ER70S2+E7018) Process for piping welding works. Shall we use only SMAW process with back chipping  as per QW -200.4 (a)  paragraph.1, 2 for the single V groove joint.

 

san

[shankar narayan karanth]

Dear San,

One is permitted to carry out the welding by only one of the two or
more processes used for the qualifying procedure povided 2T
requirement of the weld metal deposited is valid for each of the
process employed.

P.S.KARANTH.

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[Saravanan Sornam]

Dear San ,

As U said, the WPS is for Piping Welding works, 

are you planning to use SMAW only for piping ? Then, what is the Pipe Size for production Joint ? What is the weld metal deposit thk for SMAW ?

E7018 cannot be used for Single V for piping if not access , unless you use SMAW for the plates only, welded on both sides , after back gouging Or Grinding.

Regards,

Saravanan,

Korea

[jaffar ali riyas mohamed nizamin]

dear ssaravanan,

           I cant understand what you are saying.. we are also using SMAW for sch 40 for 12" pipe .the root will be ER 70S-2 and fill/cap is E7018... 

[Rudolf]

Hi Saravanan,

Just wanted to check with you, is it mandated in the code that any CJP singleV or single bevel should be back welded after gouging or grinding. I know it is a practice.  

But If on a plate there is a proper fit up we can get a excellent weld penetration atleast on FCAW. 

Can you please share your thoughts on this. 

Ref code ASME Sec IX and AWS D1.1.

Thanks n regards

Rudolf 

Sent from my iPhone

[george....@gr.bureauveritas.com]

If the essential variables related to SMAW are valid, then you can. You should check the deposited thickness (QW-404.30) for SMAW only, if it is sufficient to cover all the thickness of the pipe

best regards

Dr. Georgios Dilintas

Authorized Nuclear Inspector
Authorized Inspector Supervisor
API 510 Inspector
Prelude FLNG ASME Subject Matter Expert

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[Saravanan Sornam]

Hi San ,

I said that , only SMAW on the Inaccessible Pipe size, for example 6 ", cannot be welded and even you cannot get Full Penetration using E7018 only on Single V Bevel.

It should be welded only by using GTAW for Root and subsequent welds by SMAW until Cap.

Regards,

Saravanan,

Korea

[Chetan Kapadia]

Dear All, I would suggest use of E 6010 for root pass provided mechanical properties meet MOC UTS, FPW piping work. There is no other solution for FPW by SMAW. One can even alternatively use GMAW with ER-70-S2. C.B.KAPADIA Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android

---

From: Saravanan Sornam <sarava...@gmail.com>;
To: <material...@googlegroups.com>;
Subject: Re: [MW:18670] Multiple process GTAW+SMAW Process,
Sent: Tue, Sep 17, 2013 6:05:44 AM

[Saravanan Sornam]

Dear Rudolf ,

Only the skilled welder can make FCAW on plate with a proper fitup, but need to remove the Slags on the root side, if presents. Hope clients would not accept welding FCAW directly on Single V , without GTAW for backing .

Visually may be penetrated well with FCAW , but when we check with RT or UT, then you will see the real defects encountered with FCAW, which is directly welded on Root without back grinding or gouging .

We need to refer the design code ASME VIII Div.I UW-12 for Joint Efficiencies for the type of Joint required in fabrication and it is given with Back strips possible for Single V butt Joint.

Regards,

Saravanan

[rudolf saldanha]

hI, Saravanan,

 

May I know if it is mandatory by code that back gouging has to be done when we have a Full Penetration Joint using only SMAW process.

As far as I know, backing and back gouging are supplementary essentials for SMAW process.

 

To get a full penetration it is not compulsory to go for GTAW + SMAW process, but we can still do it with SMAW only.

 

We can use LB52U which also belongs to SFA 5.1 just as E7018, and it is commonly used for welding on pipelines where welding is done on one side.

 

http://www.weldingsupply.com.au/index.php/kobe-lb52u-low-hydrogen.html

 

The above link may be of help.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

Thanks and regards

Rudolf

 

 

 

From: Saravanan Sornam <sarava...@gmail.com>
To: material...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 17 September 2013, 14:05
Subject: Re: [MW:18670] Multiple process GTAW+SMAW Process,

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[hany alfy]

Dear Experts

We have to weld Pad eyes from plates 65 mm thick. Grades S355 through and with Pipes  610x15.9mm Grade X70 

Which electrode should be used please note this is for piling works 

Regard,

H.A

[Saravanan Sornam]

Dear Rudolf,

I do not have ASME-IX right now, but I do not think Backing and back gouging is a Supplementary variable for SMAW, please confirm again what is given in code.

As per your below info, LB-52U is for E7016 class , SFA 5.1.

If there is no Impact Test, then we can write the WPS using E7016 , even the PQR done with E7018 and can be done for Piping with Single V joints, without back grinding. As you know, change of AWS class for SMAW will be a supplementary variable as per ASME-IX.

My below point is , we cannot use E7018 SFA 5.1, without grinding on the back side on Single V Preparation on root unless any back rings used on the Root side instead of using GTAW on Root .

Hope I am right and other experts, please confirm if you have ASME-IX right now and forgive me, If I am wrong.

Hi Mr.San, still you have not given reply for the queries which I have asked you for confirmation, could you please go through it.

Cheers,

Saravanan,

Korea

[Rudolf]

Thanks Saravanan 

Tea it's a supp. essential variable. So I do agree for impact it requires requalification. I also agree with you that 7018 does require back weld to be done after gouging or backing ring. 

But I am not sure if SMAW process is it mandatory that we should back gouge using 7018. Lets not talk about the failure rate etc. I remember the code saying as gouging as supp essential which only means that a pqr qualified with gouging, the construction weld should follow procedure. 

My doubt is does the code prohibit a CJP to be welded without back gouging? 

Thanks mate

Regards

Rudolf 

Sent from my iPhone

[Weld Giant]

Hi sir,

It is 42"NB pipe with WN flange. so my question is , whether i can use single process alone to do welding, where i got approved wps GTAW+SMAW process? as per Qw-200.4 (a) 1, 2..

For the welder qualified is GTAW+SMAW process. So i want use this welder to do the above said joint with  by back-gouging. Becoz for welder it is essential variable backing.

[John Henning]

For procedure qualification per Section IX:

·         Backing is addressed in Non-Essential variable QW-402.5 (addition) for GTAW

·         Backing is addressed in Non-essential variable QW-402.4 (deletion) for SMAW

·         Back gouging is addressed in Non-essential variable QW-410.6 (method) for both GTAW and SMAW

 

Your WPS must, per QW-200.1(b), address the non-essential variables.  A change to the non-essential variables is permissible without requalification but must be addressed in the current or a new WPS.

 

See interpretation IX-81-32:

Status:

Currently Valid

Status Description:

Interpretation:	IX-81-32
Subject:	Section IX, QW-200.4
Date Issued:	May 13, 1982
File Number:	BC-81-205
Related Documents:

Question: QW-200.4 states, in part: "One or more processes or procedures may be deleted from a production joint..." In a procedure for a GTAW root and SMAW fill, can the GTAW root be deleted and the production joint welded completely using SMAW?

Reply: The joint can be completely welded with SMAW provided this process has been properly qualified for the deposited weld metal thickness range to be used in the production joint.

The above interpretation was transcribed by HSB Code Services from the official publications

 

 

This issue has been interpreted to death,  see also interpretations:

IX-04-08

IX-95-10

IX-86-01

IX-92-77

 

John A. Henning

Welding & Materials

 

From: material...@googlegroups.com [mailto:material...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of rudolf saldanha

Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 1:35 AM
To: material...@googlegroups.com

 

On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 9:03 AM, Saravanan Sornam <sarava...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[george....@gr.bureauveritas.com]

Backing (not back-gouging) is an essential variable for welder qualification...

best regards

Dr. Georgios Dilintas

Authorized Nuclear Inspector
Authorized Inspector Supervisor
API 510 Inspector
Prelude FLNG ASME Subject Matter Expert

I&F REGIONAL TECHNICAL MANAGER
BUREAU VERITAS HELLAS

Tel: +30 210 40 63 113/4
Fax: +30 210 40 63 118
Cell: +30 69 44 64 62 04
Korea cell phone: +82 10 2777 8922

"John Henning" ---17/09/2013 20:22:10---For procedure qualification per Section IX: *         Backing is addressed in Non-Essential variable

Related Documents:

This message contains confidential information. To know more, please click on the following link: http://disclaimer.bureauveritas.com

[george....@gr.bureauveritas.com]

If you want to involve only SMAW then E-6010 is the only option for the root pass.
For filling you could continue with E-7018

best regards

Dr. Georgios Dilintas

Authorized Nuclear Inspector
Authorized Inspector Supervisor
API 510 Inspector
Prelude FLNG ASME Subject Matter Expert

I&F REGIONAL TECHNICAL MANAGER
BUREAU VERITAS HELLAS

Tel: +30 210 40 63 113/4
Fax: +30 210 40 63 118
Cell: +30 69 44 64 62 04
Korea cell phone: +82 10 2777 8922

rudolf saldanha ---17/09/2013 10:30:00---hI, Saravanan,  

From: rudolf saldanha <rudol...@yahoo.com>
To: "material...@googlegroups.com" <material...@googlegroups.com>
Date: 17/09/2013 10:30
Subject: Re: [MW:18673] Multiple process GTAW+SMAW Process,

This message contains confidential information. To know more, please click on the following link: http://disclaimer.bureauveritas.com

[c sridhar]

E7018 type electrodes give radiographic quality  full penetration welds on single 'v' groove butt joints with DC EP .

Both E 7016 & E 7018 type electrodes give deep  and full penetration welds with DC EN  (like in E 6010) and filler
passes to be continued with DCEP.

Both techniques were adopted successfully in pipe line joints.

sridhar.

---

From: "george....@gr.bureauveritas.com" <george....@gr.bureauveritas.com>
To: material...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 18 September 2013 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: [MW:18690] Multiple process GTAW+SMAW Process,

If you want to involve only SMAW then E-6010 is the only option for the root pass.
For filling you could continue with E-7018

[kannayeram gnanapandithan]

7016&7018 will give medium penetration unlike 6010 which gives deep penetration

[c sridhar]

There is  no doubt about  penetration(medium)  level with E 7018 & E 7016 type electrodes compared to E 6010.

But what I have said is " E 7018 gives full penetration  with DC EP & both E 7018 & E 7016 electrodes give deep

penetration with DC SP " and could be used for root application.

The penetration depth  is  comparable to welds made with E 6010 using  DC RP.

Filler & Cap passes to be done with DC RP.

Sridhar.

 

---

From: kannayeram gnanapandithan <kgpan...@gmail.com>
To: materials-welding <material...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, 26 September 2013 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [MW:18770] Multiple process GTAW+SMAW Process,

[Saravanan Sornam]

Dear Mr.Sridhar ,

Thank you for your details .

As ASME II C, SFA 5.1, Table 1 and I referred other major welding consumable manufacturer's catalogues ,  E7018 is not recommended for DCEN ( Straight Polarity ), so practically you might have achieved with DCEN for E7018 on pipes with full penetration.

Have you tested any tensile, bend tests in PQR with the same technique you have mentioned in your mail .

If it is OK, then I would check in my shop too.

Regards,

Saravanan.

[Sam]

Dear experts,

1) i want to learn that is there any option of E6010 in root welding of pipe by SMAW available ? i do know that same E6010 used for API 5L grade B, 42 and upto grade 60 also. 

2) If we use E7018 in root (when it suits UTS of base metal) , what is the main problem ? is it only about slag in inside face  and penetration ?

3) Why E6010 is AWS SFA 5.1 and same E7010 is AWS SFA 5.5 (both looks same except UTS) ?

please answer in details.

Regards,

sam.

[kannayeram gnanapandithan]

E7018 is not to be used in DCSP