Supplementary essential variable - Group number As per section IX

[Vijay Katkar]

Dear All,

please sheared your valuable experience for following situation,

I have PQR with P No-1 Gr No-2 to P No1 Gr 1 combination with impact testing. Can i use following combination with same PQR For impact application.

1) P No-1 Gr No-2 to P No1 Gr 2
2) P No-1 Gr No-1 to P No1 Gr 1
3) P No-1 Gr No-2 to P No1 Gr 1

If above combination's are possible please provide code reference of ASME section IX or ASME section VIII.

Regards
Vijay Katkar

[Madhusudan Rout]

Yes  u can use As per SEC-9. QW-420, base metal grouping, 2010 edition.

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[Nandesh Kumar]

YES. 

As per SEC IX, any combination of P1, G1 materials can be welded in any combination to P2, G2, provided Impact test requirements are fulfilled.

Nandesh

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From: Madhusudan Rout <madhusu...@gmail.com>
To: material...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 13 November 2011 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [MW:12964] Supplementary essential variable - Group number As per section IX

[Vijay Katkar]

Dear Nandesh,

Thanks for reply

But if toughness requirement is applicable then group number will be essential variable. as per QW 252 change in group number call for qualification.
please give me any reference in the section IX.

Regards

vijay katkar 

[Sadique Basha]

Dear Vijay,

 

Please refer to QW-403.5 of ASME Sec IX.

 

It states “ When base metals of two different P-Number Group Number combinations are qualified using a single test coupon, that coupon qualifies the welding of these two P-Number Group Numbers to themselves as well as to each other using the variables qualified.”

 

Hope this helps.

 

Regards,

Sadique

[Fitria Rahman]

Good Day Vijay, Please find below my view:

Section in QW-403.19 (when joints are made between two different types or grades of base material, a procedure qualification must be made....) is associated with inertia and continues drive friction welding (QW-262) and flush welding (QW-265). If you want to use this process, you have to qualify a new welding procedure, because there is different grade.

If impact is required by the project specification and/or any section of the code, different grade becomes an essential variable. You have to specify grade of material in the WPS.

However, if impact is not required, group no- is not an essential variable. Therefore, it does not matter which group no- is used. You have to consider the P-No.only.

Rgds,

2011/11/14 Sadique Basha <s-b...@velosi.com>

[sevak hiren]

Dear concern,

 

In this case if you have PQR with P No-1 Gr No-2 to P No1 Gr 1 combination with impact testing.

 

The following combinations with same PQR For impact application. -  CAN NOT BE USED

1) P No-1 Gr No-2 to P No1 Gr 2
2) P No-1 Gr No-1 to P No1 Gr 1
3) P No-1 Gr No-2 to P No1 Gr 1

 

But, as per QW-403.5

 

If you have two W{PS/PQR for P No-1 Gr No-1 to P No1 Gr 1 and P No-1 Gr No-2 to P No1 Gr 1 or 2 combination with impact testing., then only the above combinations are allowed.

 

QW - 403.5 clearlly states that a procedure qual. shall be made for each P No. Gr No combination of base metals, even though pro. qual. tests have been made for each of the two base metals welded to itself. 

Thanks & Regards

Hiren Sevak
Surveyor
Bureau Veritas - Ahmedabad
207, Abhishree
Opp Star India Bazaar,
Satellite Road,
Ahmedabad-380015
Tel No. 079-26925491/92

[george....@gr.bureauveritas.com]

Sorry dear fellow but your conclusion is not correct
Best regards
Dr Georgios Dilintas
Authorized Nuclear Inspector
Authorized Inspector Supervisor
HBS Regional Technical Manager

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[Jr. Chiong]

Dr. Georgio,

What is the correct one? Please provide for the benefit of us who also intrigue with this matter.

Thanks a lot.

Jun

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From: "george....@gr.bureauveritas.com" <george....@gr.bureauveritas.com>
To: materials-welding <material...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 14 November 2011, 17:15:33
Subject: Re: [MW:12979] Supplementary essential variable - Group number As per section IX

[John Henning]

Jun

 

Hope this puts this manner to bed.  Dr. Dilintas is correct!    Sadique needs to become more familiar with ASME Section IX.

 

{As noted - the Group number is only a supplementary essential variable,  i.e. applies only when impact testing is required.}

 

READ the final portion of QW-403.5  to whit “ . . . when base metals of two different P-Number Group Number combinations are qualified using a single test coupon, that coupon qualified the welding of those two P-Number Group Numbers to themselves as well as to each other using the variables qualified.  . . .”

 

Also see Interpretation IX-79-94.  Note information below is from the HSB Web Site and should not be copied to any other document or reproduced in any other manner.

 

ASME Code Interpretations

Choose the scope of the list of Code Interpretations you wish to see:

Back

Status:

Currently Valid

Status Description: See QW-403.5(c) in current Code (2010 ed.)

Interpretation:	IX-79-94
Subject:	Section IX, QW-403.5 Qualification of Welding Procedure with Notch Toughness in Materials of the Same P-Number but Different Group Numbers
Date Issued:	October 9, 1979
File Number:	BC-79-630
Related Documents:

Question: Is it the intent of QW-403.5 to permit qualification of two different Group number materials within the same P-Number welded to themselves by welding one Group material to the other Group material and impact testing the heat affected zone on both sides of the weld and the weld metal?

Reply: Yes, provided the same essential variables, including electrodes of filler metals, are used when welding each base metal Group to itself.

The above interpretation was transcribed by HSB Code Services from the official publications [ASME published volumes, National Board, Eurodyne]. Although every effort was made to accurately reproduce this interpretation, use of this information should be for research only. It is strongly recommended that the official published document be used for Code business.

 

Please let me know if you have any additional questions.

 

 

 

John A. Henning

Welding & Materials

[george....@gr.bureauveritas.com]

The key lies on the last sentences of QW 403.5
So if you have a PQR with from one side Pno1 Gr. 1 and the other side Pno1 Gr. 2
then you can support WPS with following combinations, assuming all other essential and supplementary essential variables are in validity range:

Pno1-Grno1  to Pno1-Grno1
Pno1-Grno2 to Pno2-Grno2
Pno1-Grno1 to Pno2-Grno2

best regards

Dr. Georgios Dilintas

Authorized Nuclear Inspector
Authorized Inspector Supervisor

I&F Regional Technical Manager
Bureau Veritas Piraeus - Greece
Tel: +30 210 40 63 113/4
Fax: +30 210 40 63 118
Cell: +30 69 44 64 62 04
"Jr. Chiong" <wich...@yahoo.com>

"Jr. Chiong" <wich...@yahoo.com>  Sent by: material...@googlegroups.com 15/11/2011 15:25 Please respond to material...@googlegroups.com

To "material...@googlegroups.com" <material...@googlegroups.com> cc Subject Re: [MW:12987] Supplementary essential variable - Group number As per section IX Ref

[Sadique Basha]

Dear Mr. Henning and Dr. Dilintas,

My interpretation to this (in blue text below) is the same as yours. :-)

Thanks for your intervention in bringing this to rest.

Regards,
Sadique
Sent from BlackBerry® Excuse typos

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From: John Henning <jhen...@deltak.com>

Sender: "material...@googlegroups.com" <material...@googlegroups.com>

Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:45:28 -0800

To: material...@googlegroups.com<material...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: "material...@googlegroups.com" <material...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: RE: [MW:12992] Supplementary essential variable - Group number As per section IX

[sevak hiren]

Dear Sir,

 

The last sentence of 403.5 states that In addition, when base metals of two different P nos. Groups nos. are qualified using a single test coupan, the the combination is also allowed.

 

But, two or more qualification records should be there to support the above sentence.

 

Please correct if I am wrong.

[John Henning]

See ASME Interpretation IX-79-94.   It was included in an earlier post. 

 

Short answer is no.  Only a single PQR with one base material P1 G1 and the base material P1 G2 is required. 

 

All other essential and supplementary essential variables are the same for  any combination.

 

John A. Henning

Welding & Materials