Heat Input

[Adi]

I have done the PQR for LTCS by using 6010 & 7018-1 as per ASME SEC IX
some time i got 5KJ heat in put
What is the limitation for heat input and where it is mention?

Adi

[Vinayak Kale]

Adi ,

Pls refer to ASME Sec II C ,  where information about heat input depending upon the diameter & manufactures recommendation. In general client may restricted this parameter,

High Input leads to lower the toughness , ductility & increases the Hardness ,  if your value is accepted to client , no issue



Thanks & Best Regards,

Vinayak Kale
E & C  DIv. QA & I , OGSP
Larsen And Toubro Ltd
Powai , Mumbai
vinaya...@lntenc.com
Ph No.+91- 67053805/3685
Fax No. +91-67051988
(M) - + 91 9892743803

Adi <adin...@gmail.com> Sent by: material...@googlegroups.com 09/29/2009 09:35 AM Please respond to material...@googlegroups.com

To "Materials & Welding" <material...@googlegroups.com> cc Subject [MW:3352] Heat Input

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[Shashank Vagal]

Adi, Heat input is a guideline for subsequent welding. The yardstick is the average  value as obtained from your PQR. Your production welding should not exceed PQR HI values. By the way, is 6010, 7018-1 Ok for LTCS?  What is the working temp? Shashank Vagal --- On Tue, 29/9/09, Adi <adin...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Adi <adin...@gmail.com> Subject: [MW:3352] Heat Input To: "Materials & Welding" <material...@googlegroups.com>

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[Muhammed Ibrahim]

Adi,

Heat in put affects seriously in impact properties. If your impact test passes with this heat input, then it is O.K.

Generally the heat input should control in between .5 KJ to 3 KJ. Then you will get good impact value.

 

Regards,

Muhammed Ibrahim Pathayakkodan.

 

2009/9/29 Adi <adin...@gmail.com>

--
Thanks & Regards
Muhammed Ibrahim PK

[BHARAT GOLE]

E 7018-1 is acceptable up to -46 degree but selection E 6010 is not suitable for LTCS ! As per which clause it is selected for LTCS ?

Regards

Bharat B. Gole

 

---

Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 09:49:23 +0530
From: nach...@yahoo.com
Subject: [MW:3354] Re: Heat Input
To: material...@googlegroups.com

Adi,

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[Shashank Vagal]

Bharat, Thanks. I thought so. On 6010 I had doubts, please let me have the ref from any doc about 7018. Though I have seen it used for LTCS applications. Shashank Vagal --- On Tue, 29/9/09, BHARAT GOLE <bhara...@hotmail.com> wrote:

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[Muhammed Ibrahim]

E6010 will support up to -29 degree celcius only and used in pipe line root application. But if the PQR passes the impact you can use it with batch restriction.

regards,

Ibrahim

2009/9/29 BHARAT GOLE <bhara...@hotmail.com>

[shabbir ahmad]

Dear Adi,

 

As per QW 409 Heat Input is supplementry variable, when impact testing is required it will become essential variable that time it will become mandatory to maintain heat input which you have achived maximum in your PQR. And for LTCS i dont think you have selected right consumable?

 

[BHARAT GOLE]

With E 6010 PQR will always pass becoz during preparation of impact test specimen max. weld metal deposited by E 6010 in root is going to be  removed.
but in actual service situation is different so i would like to know As per which clause E 6010 selected for LTCS ?
regards

Bharat B. Gole

 

---

Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 10:16:04 +0400
Subject: [MW:3358] Re: Heat Input
From: ibra...@gmail.com
To: material...@googlegroups.com

[Jeremy Zibin]

Gentlemen, We've used qualified welding procedure specifications for LTCS that specifiy a root layer of 6010 (but only 1 root layer and no hot-pass) and then fill and cap layers with 7018.  This welding was performed on pressure piping under B31.3 for use in Northern Canada (min. design temp. of -46C).  The WPS was qualified, stamped by professional welding engineers and approved by the client. It is my understanding that the root lay is limited in thickness on the WPS and therefore the total thickness and properties of the full weld are majority 7018, which is approved for LTCS.  The heat input is limited to a max. on the WPS so that the welded joint should have the adequate impact properties at low temperatures.  This will be proven during qualification but remember not to limit yourself on heat input on the WPS, use a typical heat input for your welding process and material thickness to pass the qualification.   Regards,   JZ   --- On Mon, 9/28/09, Muhammed Ibrahim <ibra...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Cotzia Francesco]

Jeremy,

 

The use of cellulosic electrode for low temperature carbon steel is not quite appropriate. Sometimes and especially nowadays there some product classified as E6010 that can bear CVN at -46°C. I don’t know the diameter of root pass electrode, the WT you have used for PQR nipple, but I think that the weld metal deposited by cellulosic electrode is not more than 2mm. When you are extracting the CVN specimens, you will never test them the root pass. Then you are not sure that the E6010 will resist at -46°C. This risk will be increased if you are using high heat input.

If you are using this type electrode, you are increasing the risk to have hydrogen cracks especially in the root. I would suggest to use GTAW or low hydrogen electrode (E7016-1) for the root pass.

 

Regards

 

F

 

 

 

---

Da: material...@googlegroups.com [mailto:material...@googlegroups.com] Per conto di Jeremy Zibin
Inviato: martedì 29 settembre 2009 9.56
A: material...@googlegroups.com
Oggetto: [MW:3361] Re: Heat Input

 

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[Jeremy Zibin]

Francesco,   I agree that the cellulosic electrode is problematic for low temp. applications, especially for danger of H2 cracking.  There is usually tight quality control on the electrodes and they are always in rod ovens prior to use.  Also, the root pass is limited in thickness, 5 or 6mm if I remember properly on the WPS, applied with a small diameter electrode.  The second pass (7018) or hot pass is applied immediately after the root pass and it blends in with the root pass and thus creates a mixture of 6010 & 7018 in the root (i.e. the root is not totally 6010 in mech. properties).   I'm just adding to the discussion what I've observed in the oil & gas industry in Canada.  The welding with 6010 & 7018 for LTCS is quite common and it is approved from very large clients at multi-billion dollar sites that have been in operation for 20 years or more, so I would think these people know their welding, especially in the cold temperatures of Northern Canada where it is not uncommon to see -50 or -60C during the Winter.   Of course a GTAW root would be of higher quality and shouldn't have any issues with low impact resistance but this process is impractical/uneconomical for production welding on construction sites where manual welders are welding hundreds or thousands of pressure piping joints everyday.  Not to mention, you would have trouble finding enough welders that could TIG roots on these large construction sites in the oilsands.   Regards,   JZ  --- On Tue, 9/29/09, Cotzia Francesco <Francesc...@saipem.eni.it> wrote:

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[Cotzia Francesco]

Jeremy,

 

We can play with the dilution as much as we want. Have you tested the root pass only or not?

20 years ago, there was no such knowledge on this subject as today. During this period, it has been done also several damages. It is not a good point to say: “it has been done like this for several years and we have to follow the same way“.

I’m not talking about GTAW only but you can use for the root pass some semi-basic electrode that can guarantee quality and productivity in the same time.

Bear in mind that if we are talking about pipeline, today there is no code where you can use cellulosic electrode for the root pass.

 

This is my point of view that as far as I can understand, it is different from yours.

 

Regards

 

F

 

 

---

Da: material...@googlegroups.com [mailto:material...@googlegroups.com] Per conto di Jeremy Zibin
Inviato: martedì 29 settembre 2009 10.43
A: material...@googlegroups.com
Oggetto: [MW:3364] Re: R: 3361] Re: Heat Input

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[Jeremy Zibin]

I was never involved with qualifying the WPS using these methods and I have only observed these procedures being used widely in industry.  From what I recall, the impact specimens were cut from the full weld section so the results would show mech. properties from both the root and fill combined (both 6010 & 7018) and they passed for qualification.  I do not believe there was testing performed soley on the root pass as this thickness would not provide enough materials for a specimen.   I agree with you that welding technologies & consumables have evolved over the past decades and there are higher quality options available today.  My whole point was that this type of welding using 6010 & 7018 is currently being used at construction sites and on pressure piping under ASME B31.1 .   Keep in mind that Canada's welding & construction is dominated by American standards and practices, so this may be one reason why these practices are still in use versus the European industry which is more advanced.  I'm not saying which is a better option, just that this type of WPS is an option and is being used today.

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[Shashank Vagal]

Hi, Something is wrong here. Cellulosic electrodes are not to be subjected to any temp > 5o deg C or they will deteriorate as far as the bonding cellulose is concerned. They are never baked for this reason. Am I right or wrong? Shashank Vagal --- On Tue, 29/9/09, Jeremy Zibin <jzi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

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[Cotzia Francesco]

Jeremy,

 

If you want to test root pass using the sub size specimen, you can use ASME Sec VIII Table UG 84.2.

 

Francesco Cotzia

Business Unit Offshore

ISCND - Welding Pipeline,

Material Engineering and NDT

Tel. +39 02.520.34013

Fax +39 02.520.44032

francesc...@saipem.eni.it

 

Via Tolstoj, 86

20098 - S. Giuliano Milanese (MI)

www.saipem.eni.it

A subsidiary of Eni S.p.A

 

 

 

---

Da: material...@googlegroups.com [mailto:material...@googlegroups.com] Per conto di Shashank Vagal
Inviato: martedì 29 settembre 2009 14.19
A: material...@googlegroups.com
Oggetto: [MW:3368] Re: R: 3361] Re: Heat Input

[John Henning]

Jeremy,

 

I agree with you.  It is common pipeline practice in the both the US and Canada to put in a root with E6010 and fill the joint with 7018.  If only the root is made with 6010 the deposit thickness will generally be less than 3/16 in. (5mm) thick.  The subsequent pass with 7018 will consume nearly the entire root pass (if it doesn't melt through).  I have seen impact test specimens removed from the root area of the weld and they have passed -20F (-30C) easily.  The reality is that the root will have acceptable properties at reasonably low temperatures.  Although, it may be important to note that pipe line welds may not be as heavily loaded as other applications.  In severe conditions GTAW would be a better process, as crack initiation will become a more critical factor and elimination of any preferential material is desireable.  But practically, it is one hell of a lot easier in the field to use SMAW than GTAW (not to mention less expensive).  That, combined with successful application of this type of weld over the past 30+ years, is why this process is still employed.

 

I have my doubts about the use of any low hydrogen SMAW electrode for open root welding.  I have seen and tested weldors with E7018 open root (very good weldors) and they have passed RT and bends, but I would not want most weldors doing this.  Because of the slag type associated with low hydrogen electrodes you open yourself up to serious weld flaws.

 

I would disagree that European industry is more advanced.  There are just differences in approach to the same problems with one side of the pond being more conservative in some areas and the other side more conservative others.  Both sides have had significant problems due to their particular type of tunnel vision.  While there is a lot of cooperation between Canada and the US, they have their individual ways also, e.g. CWB regulations for structural welding and local provincial requirements.  Canda has representatives on many US welding committees such as AWS A5 and ASME B&PV Code and I know from personal expereince that their expertise/opinions are well respected. 

 

John

---

From: material...@googlegroups.com [mailto:material...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy Zibin
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 5:10 AM
To: material...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [MW:3366] Re: R: 3364] Re: R: 3361] Re: Heat Input

[israr]

Dear Mr. Adi,

I don't understand about the combination selection of 6013 and 7018-1,
In LTCS with tensile strength more than 60 not suitable to do the
welding with 6010.

Regarding Heat input it depend upon your client specification and
Manufacturer's specification, Normally every manufacturer give the
limit of heat input depending upon the material and that heat input
should not be more than the manufacturer's specification.

You can get this value in catalog of material manufacturer.

On Sep 29, 11:42 am, Jeremy Zibin <jzi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Francesco,
>  
> I agree that the cellulosic electrode is problematic for low temp. applications, especially for danger of H2 cracking.  There is usually tight quality control on the electrodes and they are always in rod ovens prior to use.  Also, the root pass is limited in thickness, 5 or 6mm if I remember properly on the WPS, applied with a small diameter electrode.  The second pass (7018) or hot pass is applied immediately after the root pass and it blends in with the root pass and thus creates a mixture of 6010 & 7018 in the root (i.e. the root is not totally 6010 in mech. properties).
>  
> I'm just adding to the discussion what I've observed in the oil & gas industry in Canada.  The welding with 6010 & 7018 for LTCS is quite common and it is approved from very large clients at multi-billion dollar sites that have been in operation for 20 years or more, so I would think these people know their welding, especially in the cold temperatures of Northern Canada where it is not uncommon to see -50 or -60C during the Winter.
>  
> Of course a GTAW root would be of higher quality and shouldn't have any issues with low impact resistance but this process is impractical/uneconomical for production welding on construction sites where manual welders are welding hundreds or thousands of pressure piping joints everyday.  Not to mention, you would have trouble finding enough welders that could TIG roots on these large construction sites in the oilsands.
>  
> Regards,
>  
> JZ 
>

> --- On Tue, 9/29/09, Cotzia Francesco <Francesco.Cot...@saipem.eni.it> wrote:

>
> From: Cotzia Francesco <Francesco.Cot...@saipem.eni.it>
> Subject: [MW:3363] R: 3361] Re: Heat Input
> To: material...@googlegroups.com
> Received: Tuesday, September 29, 2009, 1:13 AM
>
> Jeremy,
>  
> The use of cellulosic electrode for low temperature carbon steel is not quite appropriate. Sometimes and especially nowadays there some product classified as E6010 that can bear CVN at -46°C. I don’t know the diameter of root pass electrode, the WT you have used for PQR nipple, but I think that the weld metal deposited by cellulosic electrode is not more than 2mm. When you are extracting the CVN specimens, you will never test them the root pass. Then you are not sure that the E6010 will resist at -46°C. This risk will be increased if you are using high heat input.
> If you are using this type electrode, you are increasing the risk to have hydrogen cracks especially in the root. I would suggest to use GTAW or low hydrogen electrode (E7016-1) for the root pass.
>  
> Regards
>  
> F
>
>  
>  
>  
>

> Da: material...@googlegroups.com [mailto:material...@googlegroups.com] Per conto di Jeremy Zibin
> Inviato: martedì 29 settembre 2009 9.56
> A: material...@googlegroups.com
> Oggetto: [MW:3361] Re: Heat Input
>  
>
> Gentlemen,
>
> We've used qualified welding procedure specifications for LTCS that specifiy a root layer of 6010 (but only 1 root layer and no hot-pass) and then fill and cap layers with 7018.  This welding was performed on pressure piping under B31.3 for use in Northern Canada (min. design temp. of -46C).  The WPS was qualified, stamped by professional welding engineers and approved by the client.
>
> It is my understanding that the root lay is limited in thickness on the WPS and therefore the total thickness and properties of the full weld are majority 7018, which is approved for LTCS.  The heat input is limited to a max. on the WPS so that the welded joint should have the adequate impact properties at low temperatures.  This will be proven during qualification but remember not to limit yourself on heat input on the WPS, use a typical heat input for your welding process and material thickness to pass the qualification.
>
>  
>
> Regards,
>
>  
>
> JZ
>
>  
>

> --- On Mon, 9/28/09, Muhammed Ibrahim <ibrat...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> From: Muhammed Ibrahim <ibrat...@gmail.com>
> Subject: [MW:3358] Re: Heat Input
> To: material...@googlegroups.com
> Received: Monday, September 28, 2009, 11:16 PM
>
> E6010 will support up to -29 degree celcius only and used in pipe line root application. But if the PQR passes the impact you can use it with batch restriction.
>
> regards,
>
> Ibrahim
>

> 2009/9/29 BHARAT GOLE <bharatg...@hotmail.com>

>
> E 7018-1 is acceptable up to -46 degree but selection E 6010 is not suitable for LTCS ! As per which clause it is selected for LTCS ?
>
> Regards
>
> Bharat B. Gole
>  
>

> Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 09:49:23 +0530

> From: nach_...@yahoo.com

> Subject: [MW:3354] Re: Heat Input
> To: material...@googlegroups.com
>
> Adi,
>
> Heat input is a guideline for subsequent welding. The yardstick is the average  value as obtained from your PQR. Your production welding should not exceed PQR HI values.
>
> By the way, is 6010, 7018-1 Ok for LTCS?  What is the working temp?
>
> Shashank Vagal
>

> --- On Tue, 29/9/09, Adi <adinr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> From: Adi <adinr...@gmail.com>
> Subject: [MW:3352] Heat Input
> To: "Materials & Welding" <material...@googlegroups.com>
> Date: Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 9:35 AM
>
> I have done the PQR for LTCS by using 6010 & 7018-1 as per ASME SEC IX
> some time i got 5KJ heat in put
> What is the limitation for heat input and where it is mention?
>
> Adi
>

> From cricket scores to your friends. Try the Yahoo! India Homepage!</a
>
>  
>

> Get easy photo sharing with Windows LiveT Photos. Drag n' drop
>
>  
>  
>
> --
> Thanks & Regards
> Muhammed Ibrahim PK
>  
>

> Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail </a
>
>  
>
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[Jeremy Zibin]

My mistake, I was thinking of the basic 7018 eletrodes.  The 6010 electrodes are kept in their package until being used for the root pass.  Sorry for the mix-up. JZ --- On Tue, 9/29/09, Shashank Vagal <nach...@yahoo.com> wrote:

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[Adi]

Thank Q all



i have to do impact test,

at one point 5KJ/mm is accepted, I think average shall be below 3KJ/
mm, What do u say ?

if my impact test passed with average 5KJ/mm or above, can I proceed
with this



Adi


On Sep 29, 7:19 am, Shashank Vagal <nach_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Adi,Heat input is a guideline for subsequent welding. The yardstick is the average  value as obtained from your PQR. Your production welding should not exceed PQR HI values.By the way, is 6010, 7018-1 Ok for LTCS?  What is the working temp?Shashank Vagal

>
> --- On Tue, 29/9/09, Adi <adinr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: Adi <adinr...@gmail.com>

> Subject: [MW:3352] Heat Input
> To: "Materials & Welding" <material...@googlegroups.com>
> Date: Tuesday, 29 September, 2009, 9:35 AM
>
> I have done the PQR for LTCS by using 6010 & 7018-1 as per ASME SEC IX
> some time i got 5KJ heat in put
> What is the limitation for heat input and where it is mention?
>
> Adi
>

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