PED 97/23/EC WPS & NDT Requirements

[Saravanan Sornam]

Dear PED Experts,

When I cross checked the requirements from PED 97/23/EC Annex 1 clause 3.1.2 & 3.1.3 for category III items,

the operating procedures ( WPS & PQR ) and personnel ( Welders & NDE ) has to be approved either by a Notified Body or a third party organization recognized by a member state as provided for in Article 13 from PED 97/23/EC,

But our vendor has already made WPS & PQR as per ASME-IX which was reviewed by local Lloyd's Register Asia in Korea without getting from approval either from Notify Body or a Third party  third party organization recognized by a member state as provided for in Article 13 from PED 97/23/EC.

NDT personnel has been certified as per EN 473.

1) Are there any options to solve this issue to fulfill Annex 1 3.1.2 & 3.1.3 from PED ? 

2) The below statement from Annex 1, Clause 3.1.2 mentions about Harmonized standard, please reply with explanations.

 

Regards,

SARAVANAN,

KOREA

[veera raghava Kommisetti]

LR is a notified body. No issues as such

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[Saravanan Sornam]

Dear Mr.Veera ,

Thank you for your reply.

Whether LR to be from Europe as given in PED List of Notifiers, attached for your reference.

Or Even LR from ASIA is allowed to approve these procedures for PED.

Then for NDT personnel, can we use EN 473 qualified person for PED Jobs.

Regards,

Saravanan,

Korea

[Kannayeram Gnanapandithan]

not necessary but notify body should approve

THANKS & BEST REGARDS

KG.PANDITHAN, AWS-CWI, CSWIP 3.1

CONSULTANT-WELDING & QUALITY

[veera raghava Kommisetti]

They will certify under LRV - Lloyd's Register Verification, which is NB

[Kostas Migiakis]

EN 473 is acceptable for PED.

For PQR have in mind that the harmonized std to PED is EN 15614. So your ASME PQR shall also comply to EN 15614 requirements. 

The big issue is the requirements on impact test, hardness and macro. 

   

Dr. Kostas Migiakis
Metallurgy Engineer, NTUA

Welding Engineer, IIW, EWF

[Prakash Gotimukul]

Witness and certification by TPI/NoBo is a must for PED where as asme requires the shop to certify.

Rgds

G.Prakash

Independent Consultant, ASME AIS/ISO

Technical Director, Hitek Engg Services, Dubai
 gpraka...@gmail.com.

Tel: +9714 2778511 Mob:+97152 979 5678

[pgoswami]

Hi Saravanan,

 

I think there're some mix up on this issue.

 

First of all if PED is the directive or the design basis document then all welding qualifications should be done as per PED directives and appropriate EN standards.

 

To my understanding ,requirements and acceptance criteria of EN-288 and ASME Sec-IX are not the same. The grouping of materials , required testing and acceptance requirements  differs

 

If your vendor is trying to push the acceptance of ASME WPS and PQR , then a comparative spreadsheet must be provided to aid the AI, without which acceptance would put the AI in liability or risk.

 

LR is one of the third party review organization, accepted worldwide. Hence the selection of  LR as reviewer was not a problem, however acceptance of  ASME welding  WPS/PQR  for  PED designed equipments may not be the right choice.

 

Look at the 2nd attachment , clause 6.12 for qualification of welding procedures and 6.13 for NDE personnel.

 

The first attachment gives general overview of all EN standards.It's bit old, there may be changes incorporated in the standards.

 

Thanks.

 

Pradip Goswami, P.Eng,IWE

Welding & Metallurgical Specialist

Ontario, Canada

pgos...@quickclic.net

pradip....@gmail.com

http://ca.linkedin.com/pub/pradip-goswami/5/985/299

 

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From: material...@googlegroups.com [mailto:material...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Saravanan Sornam
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 2:35 AM
To: material...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [MW:22234] PED 97/23/EC WPS & NDT Requirements

[Karthik]

Hi,

For PED., WPS and PQR shall be qualified according to EN15614-Part 1 to 13 as applicable it superscedes EN288. example: For arc and gas welding of steel and arc welding of nickel and nickel alloys shall be qualified according to EN15614- Part1. and for tube to tubesheet EN15614- Part 8. And it shall be witnessed and the Notified body will issue the WPQR (Qualification of Welding Procedure) by the Notified Body. 

Normally we use TUV Nord. but if you go with Llloyds ., be careful before use lloyds. because lloyds in some countries are not an approved notified body. Please confirm with them before use Lloyds. 

Regarding NDT personnel , qualified according to EN473 (ISO9712). And they shall be trained and certifed by the approved Certification Body. Some countries,they train and issue certificates acording to EN473 but it will not valid if those examination centres/agencies are not an approved Certification body. Please read EN473 - Section 7 and 8 and confirm with those examination centres/agencies whether they are an approved certification body or not.

Welder shall be qualified according to EN287-1(ISO9606-1) and welding operator EN1418 (ISO14732). It will be also witnessed and certified by the Notified Body.

And in any case you cannot use the ASME WPS/PQR for PED/EN jobs.

 

Thanks & Regards,

(Karthik)

Karthikeyan.S

QA/QC Manager

German-Thai Boiler Engineering Cooperation Limited.

Rayong Factory ;

379 Moo.6 Soi 8, Tambol Pananikom,

Nikompattana, Rayong 21180 THAILAND

Tel : +66 38 897 035-9 Ext. 137

Fax : +66 38 897 034

Hand Phone: 0066 892512282

[Saravanan Sornam]

Dear Mr.Prakash,
I would like to reconfirm about your reply and give your further reply under my below queries..

1) NDT Personnel is qualified as per EN 473, so he is ok for PED job and no need of approval from NOBO Europe or NOBO korea.

2) WPS and PQR qualified as per ASME-IX, as already reviewed by Lloyds Asia (Korea) and as a harmonized standard, it is complying to EN 15614 requirements.
Macro, hardness, impact tests were all done for all the PQRs except impact tests not carried out for 4 mm pipe PQR.

3) As per your below reply, the witness and certification from either NOBO or TPI means, only the NOBO or TPI from Europe or even from Asia is well enough to certify?

4) If ASME used for PQR, then the shop shall be certified to U stamp right?

Please confirm Mr.Prakash

Regards
SARAV.

[george....@gr.bureauveritas.com]

1) NDT Personnel is qualified as per EN 473, so he is ok for PED job and no need of approval from NOBO Europe or NOBO korea.

WRONG - APPROVAL IS ALWAYS REQUIRED

2) WPS and PQR qualified as per ASME-IX, as already reviewed by Lloyds Asia (Korea) and as a harmonized standard, it is complying to EN 15614 requirements.
Macro, hardness, impact tests were all done for all the PQRs except impact tests not carried out for 4 mm pipe PQR.

ALL TESTS SPECIFIED IN EN 15614-1 HAVE TO BE PERFORMED

As per your below reply, the witness and certification from either NOBO or TPI means, only the NOBO or TPI from Europe or even from Asia is well enough to certify?

THE NOBO COULD BE BASED IN ASIA BUT MUST BE NOFIFIED BY A EUROPEAN COUNTRY

4) If ASME used for PQR, then the shop shall be certified to U stamp right?

NO

best regards

Dr. Georgios Dilintas

Authorized Nuclear Inspector
Authorized Inspector Supervisor
Level III - PED Inspector


I&F REGIONAL TECHNICAL MANAGER
BUREAU VERITAS HELLAS

Tel: +30 210 40 63 113/4
Fax: +30 210 40 63 118
Cell: +30 69 44 64 62 04
(See attached file: Dilintas_George.vcf)

Saravanan Sornam ---15/11/2014 06:14:17---Dear Mr.Prakash, I would like to reconfirm about your reply and give your further reply

Please confirm Mr.Prakash

Regards
SARAV.

This message contains confidential information. To know more, please click on the following link: http://disclaimer.bureauveritas.com

[george....@gr.bureauveritas.com]

Compliance with harmonized standards gives presumption of conformity.
However one of the basic principles of the New Approach is that harmonized standards are not mandatory!!!!
Please note that not all EN standards are Harmonized Standards

best regards

Dr. Georgios Dilintas

Authorized Nuclear Inspector
Authorized Inspector Supervisor

I&F REGIONAL TECHNICAL MANAGER
BUREAU VERITAS HELLAS

Tel: +30 210 40 63 113/4
Fax: +30 210 40 63 118
Cell: +30 69 44 64 62 04

(See attached file: Dilintas_George.vcf)

"pgoswami" ---15/11/2014 04:48:58---Hi Saravanan,

.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.[attachment "European Welding Standards.pdf" deleted by George H Dilintas/GRC/VERITAS] [attachment "ped-guidelines_en97-23-EC-Welding Requirements.pdf" deleted by George H Dilintas/GRC/VERITAS]

[george....@gr.bureauveritas.com]

COMPLIANCE WITH EN 473 IS NOT RELIEVING THE APPROVAL BY NO.BO OR RECOGNIZED THIRD PARTY ORGANIZATION
THE PQR HAS NOT TO COMPLY WITH EN 15614-1, BUT ALL THE TESTS REQUIRED BY EN 15614-1 HAVE TO BE PERFORMED

best regards

Dr. Georgios Dilintas

Authorized Nuclear Inspector
Authorized Inspector Supervisor


I&F REGIONAL TECHNICAL MANAGER
BUREAU VERITAS HELLAS

Tel: +30 210 40 63 113/4
Fax: +30 210 40 63 118
Cell: +30 69 44 64 62 04
(See attached file: Dilintas_George.vcf)

Kostas Migiakis ---14/11/2014 18:05:54---EN 473 is acceptable for PED. For PQR have in mind that the harmonized std to PED is EN 15614. So yo

From: Kostas Migiakis <kmig...@gmail.com>
To: "material...@googlegroups.com" <material...@googlegroups.com>
Date: 14/11/2014 18:05
Subject: Re: [MW:22257] PED 97/23/EC WPS & NDT Requirements
Sent by: material...@googlegroups.com

---

Welding Engineer, IIW, EWF

This message contains confidential information. To know more, please click on the following link: http://disclaimer.bureauveritas.com

[Nasser Kunju]

PED is a directive only it is not  design code. 

Since you are going for ASME for the design and construction you need to comply with all  ASME requirements plus additional requirements of PED.

PQR's should be witnessed/approved   by RTPO/ NOBO even if it is as per ASME IX and Section VII Div. 1 . ( ASME does not require third party witness )

Welders to be certified by RTPO/NOBO. If welders have been qualified as per ASME but witnessed by a RTPO/NOBO it will satisfy.( ASME does not require third party witness )

NDT personnel to be certified by RTPO typically  by BINDT etc which is a member of European Federation for Non-Destructive Testing (EFNDT). ( ASNT does not require third party witness )

NOBO and RTPO are bodies registered in the European union. You can get the list of approved national bodies from this link 

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/newapproach/nando/index.cfm?fuseaction=notifiedbody.main

Trust the above will help you.

Best regards,

Nasser M.K.

[gprak...@gmail.com]

Mr Nasser Kunju has summarised the CE requirements very well. Having worked on CE vessels with Kunju I fully agree with what he has written.

Rgds
Prakash. G.
Independent Consultant. ASME/ISO

From: Nasser Kunju Sent: Wednesday, 19 November 2014 19:25 To: material...@googlegroups.com; sarava...@gmail.com Reply To: material...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [MW:22294] PED 97/23/EC WPS & NDT Requirements

[Rajagopal Kannan]

Dear Gents,

Very Frequently we do these PED jobs.

Nasser Kunju is right as a whole. We had the instances of using PCN certified level II for NDT examinations and hence could not come across violations. I could not comment on NDT part. Except that Be it EN 15614 or ASME sec.IX, PED does not bother the construction code, where as NOBO/ RTPI Witness is a must,

Also, We have seen N no. of CE marked U stamp vessels and hence No contradiction what so Ever.

 

Also, please note that every material you use has to be supported with a PArticular Material appraisal compatible to harmonised ( EN based) Materials.

 

Thanks and Best Regards,

K.Rajagopal

[george....@gr.bureauveritas.com]

SEE MY COMMENTS IN BOLD

PQR's should be witnessed ( no formal requirement for witnessing)/approved   by RTPO/ NOBO even if it is as per ASME IX and Section VII Div. 1 . ( ASME does not require third party witness ). This applies for Categories II, III, IV

Welders to be certified (approved, the term certified is not mentioned in the PED)  by RTPO/NOBO. If welders have been qualified as per ASME but witnessed by a RTPO/NOBO it will satisfy.( ASME does not require third party witness ).  This applies for Categories II, III, IV

NDT personnel to be certified (approved, the term certified is not mentioned in the PED) by RTPO typically  by BINDT etc which is a member of European Federation for Non-Destructive Testing (EFNDT). ( ASNT does not require third party witness ), This applies for Categories III, IV


NOBO and RTPO are bodies registered  (Notified to the EU  is the correct term, legally notifcation is different from registration) in the European union. You can get the list of approved national bodies from this link 

PED is a law and when you implement a law the correct terms have to be used.

best regards

Dr. Georgios Dilintas

Authorized Nuclear Inspector
Authorized Inspector Supervisor


I&F REGIONAL TECHNICAL MANAGER
BUREAU VERITAS HELLAS

Tel: +30 210 40 63 113/4
Fax: +30 210 40 63 118
Cell: +30 69 44 64 62 04
(See attached file: Dilintas_George.vcf)

Nasser Kunju ---19/11/2014 17:25:21---PED is a directive only it is not  design code.  Since you are going for ASME for the design and con

[Rajagopal Kannan]

Dear Saravanan,

Also as Mr. George mentioned, the testing requirements of EN 15614-1 like RT, MPI, HARDNESS etc. which are additional to ASME Sec. IX, are to be performed for the PQR test coupon

Thanks and Best Regards,

K.Rajagopal

[Saravanan Sornam]

Dear Mr. Raja gopalan ,

Thank you for your reply .

As Impact test for B/M and PQR is exempted per UHA 51 (g) in ASME Sec VIII Div, 1, the ratio shows 0.20 only, for A 928 UNS 31803, 10 " 4.29 mm pipe, MDMT is -45 Deg C ( Equivalent Pipe is A 790 UNS 31803 was used for allowable stress per ASME Part II D )

Is it required to do Impact Test for PQR as per PED 97/23/EC for 4.29 mm thk pipe ? as we are going to do Impact test for pipe now.

Regards ,

Saravanan

[george....@gr.bureauveritas.com]

I would strongly advise to read and study the PED Guidelines 6/12, 7/17 and 7/28

best regards

Dr. Georgios Dilintas

Authorized Nuclear Inspector
Authorized Inspector Supervisor


I&F REGIONAL TECHNICAL MANAGER
BUREAU VERITAS HELLAS

Tel: +30 210 40 63 113/4
Fax: +30 210 40 63 118
Cell: +30 69 44 64 62 04
(See attached file: Dilintas_George.vcf)

Saravanan Sornam ---28/11/2014 05:40:11---Dear Mr. Raja gopalan , Thank you for your reply .