Radiographic Film Interpretation Excess Penetration..

[Dominic v.k.dominic]

Dear Expertise,

I have this issue please anyone clarify me,

One QA/QC- Inspector 20 years Experience person  he rejected one 24" pipe line  RT film   because of excessive penetration by measuring the dimension with a ruler and required the joint to be repaired..

This is Acceptable or Not Acceptable.

if Acceptable where is mentioned the code?

Please clarify me, Because my management take this issue very serious  

Best Regards 

Dominic V.K.

[Babur Khan]

Dear friend,

1st you mention construction code which applicable if ASME B31.3-2008 then see Table 341.3.2 Acceptance Criteria for Welds and Examination Methods for Evaluating Weld Imperfections

as per this
L Height of reinforcement or internal protrusion [Note (8)] in For T w, mm (in.) Height, mm (in.)
any plane through the weld shall be within limits of
the applicable height value in the tabulation at right, ≤ 6 (1⁄4) ≤ 1.5 (1⁄16)
except as provided in Note (9). Weld metal shall merge > 6 (1⁄4), ≤ 13 (1⁄2) ≤ 3 (1⁄8)
smoothly into the component surfaces. > 13 (1⁄2), ≤ 25 (1) ≤ 4 (5⁄32)
> 25 (1) ≤ 5 (3⁄16)
M Height of reinforcement or internal protrusion [Note (8)] Limit is twice the value applicable for L above
as described in L. Note (9) does not apply.

so and same like API 1104 have criteria
 

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Regards

BABUR KHAN LASHARI

Welding Inspector

(QA/QC)

SATORP (JERP)

Mob: +966 (0) 56 2179280

         +92334 6186285  

Skype Id : babur.lashari

[Dominic v.k.dominic]

Dear friend ,

that code is API 1104..

my question is excess penetration how is measuring the rt film like ruler scale..your knowledge it is possible

Thanks

Dominic V.K.  

[Shridev Kurup]

Dear

I find your main concerns as if the inspector does not know his job.You also says that your management has taken this issue very seriously.I believe they should taken it during welder qualification.

I believe your client inspector may be having enough experience where he clearly states the repair.

Please note that where limited information available for the imperfection by any method you as a constructor demonstrate any other method to prove that internal protrusion/penetration is with in the code limit. Destructive or NDT for one or two dispute cases.

The case of intelligent pigging will come later if it required as per specification. Excess penetration will stuck the pig in the line.

Please read below clauses of API-1104. specially rights of rejection.

13.8.4 Rejection Based On Reinforcement
The inside-diameter weld reinforcement shall not be raised
above the parent material by more than 1/16 in. (2 mm). The
outside-diameter weld reinforcement shall not be raised
above the parent material by more than 1/8 in. (3 mm).
13.

9.2 RIGHTS OF REJECTION
All nondestructive test methods are limited in the information
that can be derived from the indications they produce.
The company may therefore reject any weld that appears to
meet these acceptance standards if, in its opinion, the depth of
an imperfection may be detrimental to the weld.

Regards

[meisam shokri arfaei]

Dear friend,

At first look we should say it is not practical generally to measure the excess penetration from RT film because it is 2-dimensional. But some techniques may be employ to do this measurement by RT. Also some joints may be shown their excess penetration on RT film If you didn't use such techniques and your joint is simple butt joint, so your answer is NO. 

Regards

[Lalu r p]

Dear Friend 

In cross country pipeline due to pigging operation there are some limits for the internal reinforcement of weld.Mr. Kurup has already pointed out according to  API 1104 in his reply.I also have the experience in cross country pipeline for gas distribution, in there the acceptance limit for excess penetration was 2mm. Correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks & Regards

LALU R.P

[sevak hiren]

There is some lack of information in your inquiry email.

 

Question1: RT defect indication was of how much length in the film ? Was it a girth weld ? 

 

Question2: The inspector who rejected the film, gave you the answer or justification that why he is rejecting or giving repair, can you explain his way of answer ?

 

Question3: As you have mentioned in your email that inspector has measured the defect with the use of ruler.

How he has mesured the dimension of the defect (that is widthwise or lenghwise across the film or by any calculation) ?

What was his conclusion / final measurement length / depth of weld reinforcement after measuring ?

 

Question4: What was the welding process ?

 

Question5: Was there any access in the inside of the pipe to measure actual weld reinforcement ?

 

Queston6: What was the pipe thickness ?

 

Please refer my reply point wise.

 

Point No.1: Rejection should always be based on some measurable basis / or by some written reference while referring the code.

Point No.2: Can anyone explain the technique, how the depth of weld reinforcement be measured from RT film ?

 

Point No.3: API 1104 is silent about RT acceptance criteria for weld reinforcement.

 

Point No.4: Refer Appendix A of API 1104 (A 5.1) for the limitations / inaccauaracy of RT for evaluating such defect. (Proper Justification is required from inspector for rejection)

 

Point No.5: If the inspector is unable to explain the calculation he made, I think he has no right to reject the film.

 

Point No.6: API 1104 is allowing some major welding defects like Incomplete penetration, Incom. Fusion etc., then the weld refinforcement would not be a cause of rejection only by assuming & if not measurable.

 

Point No.7: Clause no. 13.8.4 Rejection Based On Reinforcement, is for Automatic welding without filler metal addtions (e.g. flash butt welding process)  - Was pipe welding process is the same ?

 

Best Regards

 

Hiren Sevak

[bijoy joseph]

dear meisam,

Please explain your  secret technique to measure the 3 dimensional defect in RT 

rgds

[Dominic v.k.dominic]

Dear Friends,

Sorry for the delay replay, i have a problem for network error.

 

There is some lack of information in your inquiry email.

 

Question1: RT defect indication was of how much length in the film ? Was it a girth weld ? 

Answer 1 : Indication length 20mm, yes girth weld

 

Question2: The inspector who rejected the film, gave you the answer or justification that why he is rejecting or giving repair, can you explain his way of answer ?

 Answer 2: Yes he said the last movement pigging test is problem

Question3: As you have mentioned in your email that inspector has measured the defect with the use of ruler.

How he has mesured the dimension of the defect (that is widthwise or lenghwise across the film or by any calculation) ?

What was his conclusion / final measurement length / depth of weld reinforcement after measuring ?

Answer 3: He measured by like defect  excess penetration was 6mm. as per specification 3mm Allowed  

Question4: What was the welding process ?

Answer 4: Root SMAW (6010 cellulosic),+ hot,fill & Cap FCAW.

Question5: Was there any access in the inside of the pipe to measure actual weld reinforcement ?

 Answer 5: NO. that is 24" cross country pipeline 

Queston6: What was the pipe thickness ?

 Answer 6: 8.74mm

Please refer my reply point wise.

 

Point No.1: Rejection should always be based on some measurable basis / or by some written reference while referring the code.

Point No.2: Can anyone explain the technique, how the depth of weld reinforcement be measured from RT film ?

 

Point No.3: API 1104 is silent about RT acceptance criteria for weld reinforcement.

 

Point No.4: Refer Appendix A of API 1104 (A 5.1) for the limitations / inaccauaracy of RT for evaluating such defect. (Proper Justification is required from inspector for rejection)

 

Point No.5: If the inspector is unable to explain the calculation he made, I think he has no right to reject the film.

 

Point No.6: API 1104 is allowing some major welding defects like Incomplete penetration, Incom. Fusion etc., then the weld refinforcement would not be a cause of rejection only by assuming & if not measurable.

 

Point No.7: Clause no. 13.8.4 Rejection Based On Reinforcement, is for Automatic welding without filler metal addtions (e.g. flash butt welding process)  - Was pipe welding process is the same ?

[Jean Staton]

It my be possible to perform a Paralax method.

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[Steven Teo]

Pigging will flush (flatten) out all excess pene.   ======================================================= --- On Thu, 30/5/13, Jean Staton <Jean....@metco-ndt.com> wrote:

[sevak hiren]

I am still not sure how he measured that root penetration is 6 mm.

 

If you believe the inspector's judgement & if pigging is going to be performed in the pipeline, then you need to do the rectification.

 

Or you may cross check with the PIGGING PROCEDURE / PIG Diameter from your client.

 

In my view you better go for rectification & reoffer the joint RT after rectification.

 

Regards

[Nandesh Kumar]

Parallax is a method to 'estimate' the depth of the discontinuity in the weld; not for the measurement of volumetric flaws. ವಂದನೆಗಳೊಂದಿಗೆ / Best regards, Nandesh Kumar Arasappa P.S. : Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.

--- On Thu, 30/5/13, Jean Staton <Jean....@metco-ndt.com> wrote:

From: Jean Staton <Jean....@metco-ndt.com> Subject: RE: [MW:17841] Radiographic Film Interpretation Excess Penetration.. To: "material...@googlegroups.com" <material...@googlegroups.com>

[meisam shokri arfaei]

Dear bijoy

I think you are kidding, It's  not a secret. You may hear about STEREO-RADIOGRAPHY!

Regards

[Declan Foley]

Michael,

 

This may be stating the obvious, but a 36” pipe allows enough clearance to crawl through and grind this from the inside – we have done this on a recent project using 26” pipe. There is no doubt that this is defective, but you might also find that the gauge plate, rather than getting damaged, might just knock this off.

 

From: material...@googlegroups.com [mailto:material...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Lawrence
Sent: 06 June 2013 13:20
To: material...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [MW:17893] Re: Radiographic Film Interpretation Excess Penetration..

 

Dear Friends,

 

I have attached one photo of RT film for excess penetration please find the attachment.

The excess penetration depth thickness is 17 mm (not length in pipe circumference) and the thickness is not exact measurement may be it will increase or decrease.So the client give repair.

Because the pipeline Dia 36" and thickness 14.23 and the pipe inner dia is 885.94 mm and pig gauge plate dia is 841.643 (95% of inner dia) that means the clearance is 22 mm (Total 44.297mm) between pipe inner dia to gauge plate OD.

And one more think as per ASME B31.8 (841.643 H) Dents that affect ductile girth or seam welds are injurious if they exceed a depth of 2% of the nominal pipe diameter.That means the depth is 18 mm.

So in the safe condition we repair the joint during the mainline welding time because after gauging may be it will damage the gauge plate that rectification is very difficult in cost wise also. 

But the API 1104 is not mention any acceptable limit for excess penetration.

 

This is my opinion if any think wrong please correct it and reply.

 

Regards,

Michael Lawrence

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[Dindo]

That is a burn through, welder should have notice that during welding

On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 5:20 AM, Michael Lawrence <mila.w...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Friends,

I have attached one photo of RT film for excess penetration please find the attachment.

The excess penetration depth thickness is 17 mm (not length in pipe circumference) and the thickness is not exact measurement may be it will increase or decrease.So the client give repair.

Because the pipeline Dia 36" and thickness 14.23 and the pipe inner dia is 885.94 mm and pig gauge plate dia is 841.643 (95% of inner dia) that means the clearance is 22 mm (Total 44.297mm) between pipe inner dia to gauge plate OD.

And one more think as per ASME B31.8 (841.643 H) Dents that affect ductile girth or seam welds are injurious if they exceed a depth of 2% of the nominal pipe diameter.That means the depth is 18 mm.

So in the safe condition we repair the joint during the mainline welding time because after gauging may be it will damage the gauge plate that rectification is very difficult in cost wise also. 

But the API 1104 is not mention any acceptable limit for excess penetration.

This is my opinion if any think wrong please correct it and reply.

Regards,

Michael Lawrence

On Monday, May 27, 2013 2:28:20 PM UTC+8, dominic v.k.dominic wrote:

[Steven Teo]

Such significant dingle-berry with associated fish-eye has to be removed. Should there be doubt, pls remove the doubt.   ===================================================== --- On Thu, 6/6/13, Michael Lawrence <mila.w...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Michael Lawrence <mila.w...@gmail.com> Subject: [MW:17893] Re: Radiographic Film Interpretation Excess Penetration..