Re: Sand debate-- let's chill and reflect / Seasonal-type Greetings/ {for interested eyes only}

[cc2...@verizon.net]

Abram

Sorry for getting your name wrong, sorry that our discussion has again taken a bitter turn. Like you, I apologize for my part in raising the temp.  Seems we tend to veer from "hot and engaged" arguments, (great)-- to "hot and enraged". Too bad. because by the standards of the wider world,  we are both far-out lefties-- we know what the SS would have done with both of us..
I will show you the respect of checking out the links you give.  Get back to you on it.

Meanwhile-- can we all chill and try to process what was said so far?. 
Solidarity, Greetings of the Year End, etc.

Joe Cugini

 

 

On 12/23/12, abram spritzler<aspri...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

It is also disappointing to see that no one addressed the issues. Also that someone claimed i have no proof, when I do in fact have proof of there being two different stories about Sandy Hook.

  Did anyone even check out the first link?  Is it not more interesting than I am?

I provided an article with real evidence that there are two stories behind Sandy Hook, one is the mainstream medias story-line (which by the way, on the day it occurred, included the now suppressed story-line), the other is first-hand accounts of eye-witnesses.  Why Joe and others have refused to give any serious thought to the questions that this article raises is beyond me.

Crypto-fascism is not the same as fascism.  This is my point as well.  The idea that voting in favor of keeping federal dollars in your country is crypto-fascism is a stretch.  People in this country are accused of horrible things for simply understanding the truth that immigration is used to lower wages and increase the power of the 1% over ALL working people, here, elsewhere, undocumented or documented.  Are they crypto-fascists?  I do not believe that we need to fear people who have national pride, or national pride itself in most circumstances.  When national pride changes over to joining the SS, yeah, that's when there is an issue.  Since the SS was not a working class organization, and di not represent the majority of Germans, in fact it terrorized Germans, I do not believe that national pride is the main ingredient to fascism - fear is the main ingredient.

And the point of including the review by Howard Zinn (and am i wrong, or was it insinuated that it was not a real quote?  go to Black Rose Books, and see for yourself) was to make clear that my statements about Hitler are substantiated, and by a respected historian, who usually gets nothing but praise from leftists, activists, Occupiers, so on.  I dont intend to compliment myself, only to urge Joe and others who base their ideas on events in history to read another perspective that is based on facts, facts endorsed by a leading historian that most of us trust more than the mainstream media.

 

Again, whats interesting is this is all about something other than the two completely different narratives of the events at Sandy Hook.  I may be insane, i may be a robot who live on the internet, still, no one has addressed the issue that i intended to bring up in the first place.  

  I will listen for days about what is wrong with my approach, as long as those days are followed by someone, anyone on this list, addressing the fact that there are two stories about Sandy Hook, the story of people who were there, and the story of Social-Security-killing Obama and his fellow 1%ers.

I will sincerely apologize for antagonizing anyone.  It is not my intention.  I do regret that this has played out like it has.  I have not hit my mark.  I do care more about changing the world than anything else, and so as i have missed that mark, I am sorry.  It was a fake apology.  And i think it would be just as ridiculous to apologize for not providing proof to Joe as much as it is ridiculous for him to claim that there is nothing to what I and witnesses at Sandy Hook are saying.  It is fine if he does not believe that this was an inside job.  But for him to not address the facts is disappointing and unbecoming of an intelligent debate.  I may be guilty too.  I will think more carefully in the future, I know i want the same from others.

Nonetheless, does anyone think it odd that there are two very different accounts of events on that day?  Does anyone else think it is interesting that as the world becomes more a plutocracy, as people are getting more and more  angry with the system, the 1% announces plans for 'world gun ban' that would make real resistance to their rule incredibly difficult?  Does qui bono come into play here at all?  Does killing one hundred Palestinian women and children put you in the same category as a serial killer?  Is it really hard to believe that men and women who think the death of 500,000 children is "worth it" might also think that the death of 20 children in Conn might also be worth it, in order to disarm potentially rebellious Americans?  I mean, Madeline Albright meant that in the course of liberating iraqi's, it was worth killing 500,000 Iraqi children.   Does anyone believe that her intent was to liberate Iraqis?  Do these seems like people who play by our rules?  

I hope something good can come of this, and i am sorry for having played a part in delaying the arrival of that good.

-Abram Benjamin Spritzler.
Again, here is the link that talks about facts:    http://www.sott.net/article/254873-Sandy-Hook-massacre-Official-story-spins-out-of-control

On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 12:25 PM, Randall Rose <rr...@pobox.com> wrote:

    It's very disappointing to read these fake apologies by
Abram Spritzler.

On Sun, 23 Dec 2012 00:56:33 -0500, abram spritzler wrote:

I have to apologize for not having video of people in the
government admitting to engineering these attacks.  My point is that it is
really somewhat absurd of you to demand "proof."

    At the end of his email, he takes words of praise that
he says come from "Howard Zinn, A People's History of the
United States", and he turns these words of praise into a
compliment to himself, even though the words weren't about
him to begin with.

You make a strong argument, well-documented…your point of view needs to be
considered seriously. --Howard Zinn, A People's History of the United
States

   I wish Abram Spritzler knew that what gets people taken
seriously is not his kind of fake apologies and appropriated
quotes.  Instead, people get taken seriously when they show
the integrity to sincerely apologize, when they cite sources
(especially neutral or verifiable ones), and when they take the
time to really understand where others are coming from.

    I wish Abram Spritzler would be more careful about where
others are coming from.  He thinks that Joe Cugini said that
Japanese voters are fascists, but that wesn't what Joe said.
Joe Cugini said that some Japanese voters were swayed by
parties offering ideas of national pride and "Japan First".
And Joe also said that these ideas are crypto-fascist. But
that's not the same as saying that Japanese voters in
general, or those Japanese who vote for parties with these
slogans, are in favor of outright fascism.  There's a
difference between outright fascism and crypto-fascism, and
Joe Cugini is right that a substantial number of voters find
ideas like national pride genuinely appealing, which
doesn't always mean they're willing to support outright
fascism.

On Sun, 23 Dec 2012 00:56:33 -0500, abram spritzler wrote:

First, my name is Abram.

Second, I have to apologize for not having video of people in the
government admitting to engineering these attacks.  My point is that it is
really somewhat absurd of you to demand "proof."  I am not claiming that I
know what happened, and I think it is unbecoming of an intelligent
discussion of ideas for you to imply that I am.

Third, as for 9/11, if I recall correctly I failed to provide you the link
I wanted to, but here it is:
    http://www.newdemocracyworld.org/9-11/david_ray_griffin_miracles-1.html
David Ray Griffin is someone who everyone reading this should get to know
the writings of.  I eagerly await your opinion of his writings on the
subject of 9/11.

Fourth, I never said that the exclusive source of evil in the world was
ruling elites, please, stop putting words in my mouth, it makes for very
long responses when I have to make clear what has already been written
clearly.

Fifth, here is a link that talks about how the financial crisis was indeed
engineered.  Also, where is it  that you have learned that the 1% has less
wealth than they did before the crisis?  The 99% have less money, so, where
did it go?  Also, Obama has transferred more wealth to the 1% than Bush.
  http://www.newdemocracyworld.org/revolution/Inside%20Job.html
What do people think?  Big accident?  Or engineered, just like out-sourcing
jobs, both used to intentionally undermine the power of working people,
both blamed on "the economy", both are solutions to the wealthy's problems
and burdens on the backs of ordinary people.

Yes, the elites sometimes encounter events that they cannot control.  AIDS
is one of those things, and this is why billions of dollars are spent on it
yearly.  But to believe that events that devastate ordinary people while
enriching a few with power and privilege beyond some people's imagination
are just random occurrences makes one seem to be quite ignorant of the
dynamics of power.

Sixth, I completely disagree with your assertion that everyone is equally
likely to become a champion of mass murders called wars.  Who on this list
thinks that it "was worth it" like Madeline Albright thinks the death of
500,000 Iraqi children is "worth it"?  Who on this list works to enrich
their pockets even at the expense of people being able to afford
healthcare, food, shelter?  Who on this list believes they or anyone else
should have the supreme power to detain and execute anyone in the world
without a trial?  Who here on this list works to ensure the welfare of
their families, friends, neighbors?  Who here would rather die than hear
about another 9/11 or brutal invasion of a foreign country?  There may be
people who, with the lies they are lead to believe in the media, lies that
many of us believed at one time, may support this or that war or cut to
social programs.  There may be very wealthy people who just want capitalism
to work out for everyone.  I ask you this, who cares more about equality,
Bill Gates or rank-and-file union members, your neighbors and friends?

My point is that claiming that people can be bad makes no change in the
fact that we who are good, (and we are the vast many, my friends) must band
together to fight those who are bad, who happen to be disproportionately
1%ers.

Seventh, "prove" to me that Japanese voters are fascists.  Is this not what
you said?  I don't know anything about Japan right now, nor have I quickly
read anything before writing this email.  Nonetheless, "prove" to me that
Japanese voters are fascists.

As for Hitler, he was granted power by the ruling class, and not because he
had support, as I have mentioned to you previously, the Nazi party was
bankrupt before the meeting of Hitler and the bankers.  Afterward, their
situation "turned around overnight".  This does not seem like a party that
had huge or even decent support from the people.  Germans were had by the
balls, but this was after Hitler was placed into power by the bankers.
 Hitler was chosen to do this because he was determined to do whatever it
would take to suppress the growing worker's power that was in open
confrontation with the German government and banker class.  So, after
Hitler was appointed Chancellor, he did have the Germans by the balls, via
his mostly upper-class and upper-middle-class SS and storm-troopers who
were brutal in their oppression and abduction of union leaders and
opposition party leaders and members.
  As for the claim that Hitler's party was the largest single party and
thus wielded more power than the others, yes.  What was the platform that
Nazi leaders were running for office on at this time?  It was not a "kill
Jews first, socialize the economy second" platform.  It was a "socialism
first, jobs programs second, education and infrastructure investment third,
and in the distance were vague mentions of "Jews" controlling the world
economy.  This is what was happening when Hitler won elections.  Remember
Obama?  Hope, Change?  And did he mention drone-planes, an end to your
right to a trial, transfer of trillions of dollars to Wall St?  No, that
was later.  Difference is Obama won the election that got him into the top
spot, Hitler didn't.
  Will you tell me that Germans supported Hitler when he did change the
tune and started rounding up union leaders, communists, Jews, and others
and threw them into gas chambers?  Can I ask why most Germans did not know
the Holocaust was happening at all, and that it was done far from the
population in order to keep this fact concealed?  And why was Obama
re-elected after doing the above crimes against ordinary people?  There
were no elections after Hitler was appointed Chancellor.  If Hitler thought
he had the support of most Germans, he would have had elections to shove in
the face of those who did not support him, like what happens here and
everywhere else.

   - - - - - - - - summary- popular support did not sweep Hitler into
power, people opposed his pro-bank platform, but had few other options when
he became Chancellor, appointed by the bankers - not the people, and then
set out immediately to terrorize German working people into going back to
their jobs and keeping their mouths shut.  The lie that Germans voted
Hitler into power is one used to convince us that ordinary people should be
feared, and lead by a morally upright elite, in other words, democracy is a
sham, can't trust your neighbors more than the bankers.

Eighth, people don't support socialist parties, and this to you is evidence
of them having values equal to ruthless members of the 1% and "our" current
regime?  People might not support socialist parties when these parties call
for what is basically state capitalism and do not indite the banker class
that has impoverished us, and instead choose to agree with austerity,
because of the just mentioned reasons.  Again, 'socialism' means nothing.
 It is a word without meaning today, and that is fine.  Please, stop
equating 'socialism' with 'good' or 'getting there'.  Supporting or not
supporting 'socialism' says nothing about a person.  NOTHING.

Hope this was helpful.  Joe, send me your address, or PO Box, and I will
send you a copy of 'The People As Enemy' about WW2.  The author is my
father, and no I don't believe everything he says, but when Howard Zinn
says of the book;

"*The research is impressive. You do an excellent job unearthing the

instances of class conflict, and internal opposition during the "good war."
You make a strong argument, well-documented…your point of view needs to be

considered seriously.* --Howard Zinn, A People's History of the United

States

.......I do exactly that, consider it seriously.

-Abram.

On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 12:57 PM, Randall Rose <rr...@pobox.com> wrote:

    Good points.

On Sat, 22 Dec 2012 11:29:07 -0600 (CST), cc2...@verizon.net wrote:

Adam

Here's where you and I definitely part company. You have put the
paranoia before the facts. Needed facts are--anything that connects
the shooting of those kids and teachers with Operation Gladio or any
other secret government murder conspiracy . We have debated the issue
of 9/11 before, and you did not present me with a shred of credible
evidence that that was a "false flag" attack. I could resend you that
stuff. In that exchange, I argued that evidence of one bogus event,
like the "Gulf of Tonkin Incident", -- no doubt, a fraud from day 1--
cannot be taken as evidence of another. Here you are doing it again.
 I accept that the US govt. is often the source of evil in the world.
I don't believe it is the exclusive source of all evil everywhere,
that it is all cleverly engineered exactly as the string-pullers want
it. Even really solid progressive journalists like Naomi Klein fall
into this "manufactured crisis" mindset. It assumes the government and
the forces we oppose are never surprised by crises, that they never
loose control. So-- the financial crisis of 2007-? is a trick to foist
austerity on us, bust unions and progressives... Look at the financial
wealth charts, and you will see that the ne wealth of the 1% dropped
during that crisis--- plenty of fat-cats went totally bust, for good.
If these elites had as much control as you say, why would they not
have rigged it so their wealth went up and up, smoothly-- as it did
during the Bush years?
Elites are one source of a lot of the evil in the world-- but I don't
see their "human nature" as being so far from the average. We all
succumb to selfishness, ignorance, laziness, rationalization of our
failures--- but elites have more power, so they have more ability to
spread damage around. Same reason that the Roman Empire, the British
Empire, and the American Empire wreak havoc--- because they are big
enough to be able to.
As for other sources of evil-- look at recent political events in
Japan. Since about 1950, the " Liberal Dems" {establishment biz party}
were the majority party, with a good sized Japan Socialist opposition.
New development-- the Socialists have just about evaporated, and the
ascending opposition party are --- ulltra-right Japanese nationalists,
spouting on about "Japan First" and "Japanese honor and pride" and all
that cypto-fascist horseshit. Source of this new development--- the
Japanese electorate. We would both say they voted "wrong"-- but why
did they buy the line of the neo-nationalists and dump the
Socilialists? Reasons, images, emotions-- some mix of these led to a
change of mind--- exactly how and why is what progressive have to
figure out.
Same story in Greece-- the quasi-fascist "New Dawn" movement is no
damn good, as many prog journalists have made clear. But why has the
Greek electorate turned to them? Not enough Greeks seem to believe
that the answer to the crisis of international finance capitalism is
-- Socialism. Socialists have been making their arguments for a long
time, and the Greek electorate knows them -- for a long time parties
of the left totally dominated. Why do many no longer believe them?
And, of course, Germany in the 1930's, which we have debated before.
It is a hard truth for progressives to acknowedge, but -- whatever the
last minute machinations that made Hitler "Chancellor of Germany", ---
those machinations became possible because by the end of 1932, the
Nazis were the largest political party there. Germans could and did
vote Socialist and Communist-- but their combined vote only approached
that of the Nazis. Thereafter-- the Nazis played a way smarter game of
insider politics-- But the German electorate opened the door for them.
Why?
At the time these votes happened--- NO ONE yet held the people by the
b____. Saying, opinion was "manipulated" by elites is just another way
of saying, "THEY won the war for hearts and minds..." Why- when THEY
are so hateful?

Lastly-- as a teacher who spends a lot of my working day in front of
a classroom, anything that distracts from the facts and reality of
that day is--- purely repellent.

Joe Cugini

On 12/21/12, abram spritzler wrote:


http://www.sott.net/article/**254873-Sandy-Hook-massacre-**

Official-story-spins-out-of-**control<http://www.sott.net/article/254873-Sandy-Hook-massacre-Official-story-spins-out-of-control>
[1]


http://lewrockwell.com/**roberts/roberts382.html<http://lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts382.html>[2]


http://newdemocracyworld.org/**culture/newtown.html<http://newdemocracyworld.org/culture/newtown.html>[3]

Links:
------
[1]

http://www.sott.net/article/**254873-Sandy-Hook-massacre-**

Official-story-spins-out-of-**control<http://www.sott.net/article/254873-Sandy-Hook-massacre-Official-story-spins-out-of-control>
[2] http://lewrockwell.com/**roberts/roberts382.html<http://lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts382.html>
[3] http://newdemocracyworld.org/**culture/newtown.html<http://newdemocracyworld.org/culture/newtown.html>

[abram spritzler]

Sounds great.  

But am i to understand that you did not check out the links before writing your response?

Happy New Year to All!  It will be a good one.  Everyone: think about mini-occupies, a group of 4-10 people holding the fort and discussing things with people who walk by, 6 hours per day, once or twice a week.  We need to be out there engaging people, and it doesn't have to be with a large 24-7 occupy.  If we had mini-occupies weekly in different areas, we could reach a lot of people and remind people that there is dissent and they can join it.  whether you like what i say, i think we can agree that mini-occupies would be a great thing, so work with me on it or without me on it, i would love to see a mini-occupy whether i was a part of it or not!

Bless!

[Randall Rose]

Thanks. To answer Abram's question, I
did figure that the quote from "Howard Zinn,
A People's History of the United States" was
from a book review by Zinn. So it is authentic,
as Abram says. When Abram, right after quoting
Zinn's words of praise, goes on to say "I do
exactly that", I thought that might be too
quick a jump, but I didn't think Abram was
misquoting Zinn.

I, too, want to apologize because I suppose
I made things more negative, and I want to
apologize to Abram in particular. Let's chill,
as Joe says. Happy holidays and solidarity....

On Sun, 23 Dec 2012 12:59:53 -0600 (CST), cc2...@verizon.net wrote:
> Abram
>
> Sorry for getting your name wrong, sorry that our discussion has
> again taken a bitter turn. Like you, I apologize for my part in
> raising the temp. Seems we tend to veer from "hot and engaged"
> arguments, (great)-- to "hot and enraged". Too bad. because by the
> standards of the wider world, we are both far-out lefties-- we know
> what the SS would have done with both of us..
> I will show you the respect of checking out the links you give. Get
> back to you on it.
>
> Meanwhile-- can we all chill and try to process what was said so
> far?.
> Solidarity, Greetings of the Year End, etc.
>
> Joe Cugini
>

> [17]

>>> [14]

>>> David Ray Griffin is someone who everyone reading this should get
>>> to know
>>> the writings of. I eagerly await your opinion of his writings on
>>> the
>>> subject of 9/11.
>>>
>>> Fourth, I never said that the exclusive source of evil in the
>>> world was
>>> ruling elites, please, stop putting words in my mouth, it makes
>>> for very
>>> long responses when I have to make clear what has already been
>>> written
>>> clearly.
>>>
>>> Fifth, here is a link that talks about how the financial crisis
>>> was indeed
>>> engineered. Also, where is it that you have learned that the 1%
>>> has less
>>> wealth than they did before the crisis? The 99% have less money,
>>> so, where
>>> did it go? Also, Obama has transferred more wealth to the 1% than
>>> Bush.
>>> http://www.newdemocracyworld.org/revolution/Inside%20Job.html

>>> [15]

>>>>> [1]
>>>>>
>>>>> Official-story-spins-out-of-**control
>>>>> [1]
>>>>>
>>>>> http://lewrockwell.com/**roberts/roberts382.html [3][2]
>>>>>
>>>>> http://newdemocracyworld.org/**culture/newtown.html [5][3]

>>>>>
>>>>> Links:
>>>>> ------
>>>>> [1]
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.sott.net/article/**254873-Sandy-Hook-massacre-**

>>>>> [7]
>>>>>
>>>>> Official-story-spins-out-of-**control
>>>>> [2] http://lewrockwell.com/**roberts/roberts382.html [9]
>>>>> [3] http://newdemocracyworld.org/**culture/newtown.html [11]

>
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] http://www.sott.net/article/**254873-Sandy-Hook-massacre-**

> [2]
>
> http://www.sott.net/article/254873-Sandy-Hook-massacre-Official-story-spins-out-of-control
> [3] http://lewrockwell.com/**roberts/roberts382.html
> [4] http://lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts382.html
> [5] http://newdemocracyworld.org/**culture/newtown.html
> [6] http://newdemocracyworld.org/culture/newtown.html
> [7] http://www.sott.net/article/**254873-Sandy-Hook-massacre-**
> [8]
>
> http://www.sott.net/article/254873-Sandy-Hook-massacre-Official-story-spins-out-of-control
> [9] http://lewrockwell.com/**roberts/roberts382.html
> [10] http://lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts382.html
> [11] http://newdemocracyworld.org/**culture/newtown.html
> [12] http://newdemocracyworld.org/culture/newtown.html
> [13] mailto:cc2...@verizon.net
> [14]
> http://www.newdemocracyworld.org/9-11/david_ray_griffin_miracles-1.html
> [15] http://www.newdemocracyworld.org/revolution/Inside%20Job.html
> [16] mailto:rr...@pobox.com
> [17]
>
> http://www.sott.net/article/254873-Sandy-Hook-massacre-Official-story-spins-out-of-control
> [18] mailto:rr...@pobox.com