Discussion - New York Harbor
Waylander
tugsc...@gmail.com
favor of the men who work on the boats. Since the local 333 strike in
1988 the crew members have been at a distinct disadvantage at
negotiation time mostly due to the lack of strength of the union body
and more specifically the ineptness of the union leadership starting
with Al Cornette and leading up to John Healy who was one of
Cornette's flunky s. But now is our time. With lack of qualified man
power on the boats we have an oppurtunity to get back at least a
little of what we've lost over the years. The union men at Reinauer
have already set things in motion by demanding more and have already
turned down one proposal. It's up to us specifically K- sea crew
members to carry the ball through the next 12 months. We need to be
ready to negotiate fairly and with strong conviction or we only have
ourselves to blame. That means paying our dues and showing 333 is more
than just a couple of officials who role over for the company's. K-
Sea likes to talk about how there a multi million dollar corporation
meanwhile pinching pennies with there crews. It's time to start
reinvesting in there employees. Show us that building experience and
competence in your men and women is just as important as building a
new piece of equipment. It s time to be proactive. Both for us and the
company
tugsc...@gmail.com
and liability for short money
On May 21, 10:59 pm, Waylander <justinlew...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Waylander
I do not think the problem is the companies. I think the problem is
with your crappy union! Local 333 is not a union, it extorts it
members and provides ZERO benefits. You pay them $1600 to join and $40
a month so they can roll over and negotiate a crappy contract every 5
years. I worked for K-SEA, which is in local 333. In my opinion
approximately 60% of the employees are union members. I believe if you
read the contract it says that the union will strike if it is found
that non-union members are working on the vessels.
Why doesn't local 333 enforce this? Does it not care about its paying
members? Why don't they care? Don't they want their money from all
these people who have not joined?
Maybe they are getting money from somewhere else.
Why are we paying these people to do nothing?????????
I think the solution as far as wages and benefits should be left to
the market system. I truly believe you should ditch the union and see
what happens.
In my opinion contracts only work one way as far as labor is
concerned. If the companies are doing well, they are not obligated to
pay you more because they have a contract with the union. Instead
they wait until the contract is up. If the company is not doing well
you can still be laid off. If there is no work, there just is no work.
The union is used as a control mechanism for the companies.
I think we should leave it to economics "the allocation of scarce
resources which have alterative uses" We are scarce and can go other
places.
Gutzy Mariner
I would not mind joining a union like the kind in the old days. They
really looked out for their membership and fought hard for good wages.
I worked in the dredging industry and I have seen our union fail time
and time again to provide us a decent wage for the skills we provide.
But at the same time they would get a rate that was higher for the
levermen in the clamshells. Now- a leverman on a clamshell can make or
break a dredging operation, but a mate on a hopper dredge is sitting
on a very expensive peice of equipment-much more so than a bucket
dredge- a crane and bucket are a hell of a lot cheaper. It also
requires that we have a good well rounded education. Not many mates
out there these days are hawspipers. God bless them. Hawspipers are
great, but with the requirements the coast guard is putting on
mariners these days you almost have to go to a state academy to get
your license. All that education and skil and the union treats a damn
uneducated leverman better than a hopper dredge operator with a mates
license a radar cert and an STCW ticket that costs a bundle to keep
up. It isn't worth it in my estimation.
Now the free market of today should have us making much more money
than the leverman. Or longshoreman, or truck drivers. I know some
folks that are truck drivers that make more than me. Once again, not
that I don't respect the truck drivers or longshoremen- but it isn't
as important. They don't have the responsibility. If the american
maritime industry is going to survive, the unions are going to have to
pull their heads from their asses and get working with all that money
we give 'em. They are just taking our money to line their damn
pockets- they aren't much better than the companies in that respect.
It's too bad - if we could all go on strike at once and shut things
down for a few days- that would really show them who runs things. But
tugscan has a point- there are going to be holdouts- the guys that are
loyal to the union and company even when they are getting walked all
over. It only works if there is solidarity.
Strength in numbers! Strength in knowledge that the fatcats at the
office lack.
Maritimelinks.net {Moderator}
get your raise in pay? How much of a raise are you looking for- or for
that matter, how much do you make now? I wonder if the company has a
mechanism for employees to file a greivance outside of the union. Each
individual could put in their complaint to the company - in this case
K-Sea- and request that the crews get a better wage.
When I went to Maine Maritime K-Sea seemed to be a new, or relatively
new company. I had neer heard of them until I was graduating. I had a
lot of friends go to work for them and most of them have been pretty
happy, though I have heard that the pay is nothing special. Would you
be able to get enough people together to go to the union and launch a
campaign to get yourselves a pay raise?
I would like to see companies start to give a little more to workers
and care a little less about the shareholders. I am all for the free
market- but when CEOs are making insanely high wages and getting
golden parachutes when they screw up- I really think we need to
reverse that trend for our country to survive in a free market. Too
much money and power in the hands of a few is not a good thing.
I whole heartedly support your fight for higher wages!
> > Lets start a discussion for New York Harbor.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Waylander
Hello All,
I would like to bring up one more point to illustrate how the New York
union Local 333 is not working for its members.
At this time, I have a friend that would like to quit one company that
is part of the union to work for another company within the same
union. Why would he want to do this? Money, the other company is
paying 20K a year more! Now this would normally be easy to do, you
apply to the new job, get hired, and then switch jobs. I did this, and
any normal person does this too, you get a new job before you quit
your current employer.
Local 333 does not permit it members to do this!! They have to quit,
and then apply if they choose to work for a company in the same
union. Why would a union that you pay to "protect" your interest not
allow you to move companies without a disruption in your pay? Anyone
that switched jobs in this industry knows that this could be a two
month process to get hired, with Physicals and the such. This could
result in a few months without pay! Why do they do this? It seems this
would be beneficial to the companies and not for the paying members. I
would think if they let labor move freely between companies that this
would bring a rise in pay to its MEMBERS. Instead the union is
inhibiting the free movement of labor and protecting the companies
from market conditions. Supply and demand people! The union is making
it hard for the supply to move to the demand. So, I ask again. Why are
we paying these guys?
Gutzy Mariner
That is ridiculous!! I cannot believe that a Union would bar you from
changing companies within the same Union? That makes no sense- the
union is not around to protect the companies but that sounds like that
is exactly wha they are doing in your case. I would be very upset if I
were paying dues in your union and getting that kind of response to
trying to apply for a new job- a job that is covered by the same
union!!
So you said that you had to quit, then re-apply to the new job? That
does not make any sense for the union- unless the union is protecting
the company paying lower wages. It seems that might be the case. What
relationship does the union leadership have with these companies? Is
there anyone in the union who would actually listen to your complaint
about this?
Tugscan-
Do you see these some things being an issue with the local 333? I was
a Masters Mates and Pilots member with the government and they treated
us like crap. But then the government employees get no real
representation. The MM&P representative came in when I was new-- and
we were never really told to join the union. So I asked this woman who
was the representative what the union would do for me if I joined- she
turned and asked how many in the room did not pay union dues- then she
reffered to the half of us in the room as "fucking scabs" and said
that we need to pay our dues... I told her- but we are not required
to. I asked again- what will you and MM&P do for me if I join- she
lauged and did not answer.
So I never joined. Why would I pay dues voluntarily to an organization
that would insult me and not even tell me what they can do for us.
Maritimelinks.net {Moderator}
politicians support the money-fat unions and not the workers who need
them. The problem? Absolute power corrupts absolutely- and the unions
carry too much power- large unions are basically the same as a
corporation- they have a lot of money, they are slow to react to
situations, there is a lot of red tape and politcal garbage to deal
with if you want to get any benefit from the unions.
I would like to see what kinf of response the local 333 would have to
this. They are local, but may be controlled by the AFL/CIO- I don't
know. But since I don't know what they do for their people, it would
be interesting if we could get the union leadership on here to comment
on the situation.
To be fair, I know that there are often disputes between labor and
management- or unions and their members. Some leadership will do what
they feel is the best for their members and some do what is best for
themselves.
Would anyone be opposed to inviting them here to discuss these issues?
NYC Tugging
I do, and I as I understand I make more than the 333 guys and don't
pay dues or deal with the politics. IMHO, 333 has become barely more
than an employment agency.
Maritimelinks.net {Moderator}
union outfits out there. I am personally of the opinion that unions
are no good. There are some guys out there that had parents in unions
and they heard good things... I think most unions are pretty corrupt.
I think that unions in the US are one of the reasons the salary is
pretty stagnant in the country today.
If we don't find a way to get the market to value us more- we will
become the 'truck drivers of the sea'. My last job I had a watch
partner, and we used to joke about the prestige of going to the
maritime academy and getting the coast guard license. They make you
and officer in an industry that no longer respects the value of its
workforce. So instead of officers, we have become lower management (on
some vessels) and 'drivers' on others. There is little value placed on
our hard work to get and maintain the credentials.
Who can be the voice of the American Maritime Officers if the unions
will not speak up for us?
Companies have us by the balls because we need to work- if we go get
the job with the lower paying company because it is all we can find at
the time- then they have no incentive to raise wages. I am afraid of
the day that we become the North American Union!! Then Mexican
officers can work on the ships for $15 an hour and we will be screwed-
if there is no more 'USA' then the Jones Act will be gone.
Take a look at a Corporate prospectus and take a look at what the
company is raking in- why aren't we sharing in that? The CEO has too
much- the officers have too little.
NYC Tugging
Sea, working their butts of doing the K-Sea shuffle sometimes doing
3,4,5 sometimes 6 barge moves in a six hour watch. Granted many of the
moves are obviously very short. But each time you dock, you run the
risk of doing a damage causing an injury to crew member etc. At
Hornbeck, each tug has one barge and we move only that barge. The rate
in which we move is roughly once every nine hours. Lately though..it's
been significantly less. Last week, we sat around for over four
days...hanging off the dock. I also move the smallest barge my company
owns...therefore, we tend to do more loads and discharges then the
rest of the fleet! With that in mind, I'd almost say I have a "union
job" I work less and make more!