How do native Italians feel about Mario Lanza?
jora...@comcast.net
the top 3 tenors, all attributes considered.( we of the forum, of
course, think he is number ONE)~~~ but....Would he rated this highly
in Italy, "the land of the tenors"? I think I remember Armando once
saying that Mario was quite free of an "American" accent and also
quite admired by Italians in his singing of Italian songs and arias.
Happy Birthday Mario! To us, You will always be 38 yrs old!
Derek McGovern
English-speaking countries or in Italy, though of course it depends on
which group of people you mean here: by operatic singers, opera
aficionados, critics, or the general public? Now if you asked people
at random in the street who Lanza was, I daresay that far more people
would be able to identify him than they would, say, Wunderlich or Di
Stefano. But that really means very little: after all, Russell Watson
and Paul Potts are far more familiar names to the public than vastly
superior singers such as Ramon Vargas or Marcelo Alvarez. In other
words, name recognition doesn't necessarily have anything to do with
greatness.
In Lanza's case, I think that those who know voices (and I'm including
singers, critics, and opera aficionados here), if they are honest,
would acknowledge that it was a magnificent instrument. They'd be hard
pressed not to do so, though of course some will always perversely
cling to the myth that it was a small voice. But I doubt that many of
these same people would rate him among the top three tenors as a
*singer*. A *potentially* great singer, some might argue, but a tenor
who nevertheless failed to live up to his early promise.
And if we're honest ourselves, we'd have to acknowledge that Lanza
*was* an inconsistent artist in terms of his operatic output. We can
partly blame this truth on shortage of time, Hollywood influences,
incompetent conductors, etc, but the fact still remains that his
commercial and Coke Show operatic recordings are a decidedly mixed
bag, ranging from magnificent to downright bad. Next to an artist of,
say, Wunderlich's style and stature - a man who recorded numerous
arias and full-length operas, in addition to appearing regularly on
stage - Lanza would fare rather poorly in the minds of many music
lovers, even though they might (rightly, in my opinion) regard his
voice as the superior of the two instruments. Compounding this
problem, of course, is BMG's fondness for choosing the worst versions
of arias that Lanza recorded, together with the fact that his legacy
on CD has been so dumbed down that newcomers to the tenor could be
forgiven for assuming that the Coke Shows represent virtually his
entire discography. Only *one* all-operatic CD in 21 years??!! It's
almost as if BMG is embarrassed by the man's operatic recordings.
Discerning lovers of great voices therefore don't have much to go on
when it comes to evaluating Lanza's operatic output. And so that's
really one of the main purposes of this site: getting the information
out there, making people aware that there is far more to the man's
achievements than Be My Love and a lot of popular ditties from an
11-month-long radio show.
By the way, I should make one thing clear: it's not a prerequisite of
joining this site that members must regard Lanza as "number one" among
tenors. Lanza happens to be *my* favourite tenor for many reasons, but
I wouldn't want to scare off people who enjoy his singing (and/or are
interested in learning more about him) but who also like Di Stefano,
Corelli, or whoever, equally - if not more. For all I know, some of
our members may even prefer Del Monaco to Lanza!
Armando
purely as a voice, Lanza is regarded by the majority of either critics
or opera lovers as one of the greatest, but as a singer he is
generally placed way down the list.
I'm referring only to his operatic output.
The prime criticism is directed towards stylistic lapses, incorrect
recitatives, fast tempi, and mispronunciation mainly to do with double
consonants.
Unfortunately, as we well know, his recording output is a very mixed
bag and it's very easy to find a number of arias to target.
So while, Di Stefano may be voiceless in some performances, Del
Monaco and Corelli interpretatively monochrome, Bergonzi and
Pavarotti on the dull side, and Bjorling a little detached,
stylistically, if not always musically, they fall into the required
parameters.
I do believe, however, that any opera connoisseur, be he Italian or
Eskimo, listening to a compilation of the very best of Lanza's live
and commercial operatic recordings would rate him very highly and in
some instances as number one.
On Feb 1, 3:59 am, "jorain...@comcast.net" <jorain...@comcast.net>
wrote:
Joe Fagan
, somehow , I am also somewhat saddened by this! In my heart he is
number one, hands down. I wonder if history will ever change these views?
To that extent, your forum and others like it, do Mario a great service!
Thanks again.
Derek McGovern
that when Lanza was in top form, both vocally and stylistically, he
was basically in a class of his own. And this includes some of his
operatic recordings, despite RCA/BMG's apparent indifference to the
fact. Remember that BMG's chief compiler of Lanza CDs, Derek
Mannering, has openly scoffed at those who think a Lanza operatic CD
of *consistently* great performances will make any difference to the
way in which the man is perceived by music lovers in general. Maybe it
won't, but isn't it at least worth a shot? I refuse to bow to such
defeatism.
Besides, as several of us here have often pointed out, given that the
fans will buy whatever Mannering deigns to include on the CD in any
event, why not - for once!!! - go the extra mile and compile a
first-class representation of Lanza in the genre in which he is most
under-represented? Why is it so unreasonable of us to expect a single
great operatic CD from BMG?
But as we've seen, the biggest stumbling block to assembling a
magnificent operatic Lanza CD is that, in the first instance, the
compiler needs to be able to tell the difference between a sloppy
performance and an outstanding one!
Derek McGovern
What a bizarre way for a company to represent one of its best-selling artists.
To put it another way, if we go to an art gallery to see an exhibition of a celebrated painter's work, we don't expect to see botched versions of his/her most famous portraits and rightly discarded sketches; we expect to see the artist's best work. It's irrelevant whether the painter (like Lanza) was an inconsistent artist; the curator - like the CD compiler - *owes* it to the artist and his public to represent him at his best.
And now I'm getting off my soapbox!
Jana
yet another point of view: IMHO, if Mr.Mannering and the people in BMG
were clever, they would release a *truly* definitive collection,
taking the advice of people who really do understand opera, and in a
good sound quality. That would certainly bring many new fans and
therefore would increase the sales of the other albums--a sound
commercial move. Releasing *things* like the Definitive Collection
will rather scare potential new listeners away and BMG is actually
losing money. One thing is that I hate to see Mario's talent not taken
properly care of, the other thing is that I don't understand a company
depriving itself of its own money.
Jan Hodges
| Jana wrote< |
Thank you, Derek, for summing up the problem. However, I think there's
|
Yet another point of view: IMHO, if Mr.Mannering and the people in BMG
Were clever, they would release a *truly* definitive collection,>
Well perhaps we know the answer to that already and it doesn't reflect well
on Mr. Mannering or BMG
By the way, Mike my Canadian friend ,if my memory serves me correctly, before the last Lanza forum closed due to you and Derek having a large amount of work, wasn't there a whisper of an opera only collection?
Wink, wink, nudge, nudge!
Regards Jan
| ||
|
|
Joe Fagan
Armando?? Have there been any discussions among you about some sort of
collaboration? Certainly this man must recognize the considerable expertise
both of you would bring to the table! As Jana so aptly points out, this also
hurts the BMG bottom line.
Derek McGovern
for RCA (especially real ones, where the soprano was actually present with him in the studio!). As far as I was concerned, the only duet truly worthy of being released was the Dio Ti Giocondi with Licia Albanese; I prayed that Mannering wouldn't set his sights on the rough-as-old-boots Butterfly Duet with Malbin. But of course he did, even though it had already been released only months earlier by a BMG subsidiary label.
So, yes, for well over a decade now, virtually every Lanza BMG compilation (the 2-CD Encore! set and Mario Lanza in Hollywood - both for subsidiary labels were rare exceptions), both in Europe and in the US, has largely reflected the personal tastes of Derek Mannering. That's why we get such things as Valencia and the Coke One Alone on not one, but two of his CDs (including, respectively, his Ultimate Collection and Definitive Collection), the rather graceless alternate take of My Romance on two discs, nothing from the Mario! album (well, except - you guessed it! - Funiculi' Funicula'!), only the lightest
moments from For the First Time (Ave Maria and Come Prima), nothing from Caruso Favorites (actually nothing from 1959!), and not even *superior* Coke numbers such as the immortal Some Day (Mannering prefers the 1954 live version). But you can see the bias here: I would say that only around 5% of what he's released comes from the period after the Song of India in 1953, and most of it is lightweight (eg, Arriverderci, Roma from Seven Hills, which he's released twice), with the Otello duet and Monologue being rare exceptions.
But the Mannering CDs sell very well (especially in the UK), and that's the bottom line, I guess. But as Armando's observed in the past - and this is essentially Jana's point above as well - by compiling CDs that would satisfy the more discerning listeners (eg, those who can tell the difference in quality between something like the Coke Torna a Surriento and the Serenade version), BMG could expand its customer market beyond just the diehard fans. There are far more of these people out there than BMG realizes! I for one would love to be able to recommend *without reservation* even one Lanza BMG compilation to non-aficionado friends (I'm always being asked to do this), but the truth is that other than something like the 1958 collection You Do Something To Me (now coupled on CD with the first Christmas album), there isn't a single BMG Lanza CD around that doesn't include a fair number of dubious choices.
The most successful Mannering compilation, in my opinion, is probably When Day Is Done. This disc features Lanza the popular romantic singer, which is clearly how Mannering wants people to regard Mario. "Lanza was not an opera singer," he continually reminds us. And: "If I want to listen to opera," he has said on the Rense forum, "then I'll listen to Placido Domingo in something like Otello." My response to this is: "Fine. If you're not particularly interested in Lanza the operatic singer, then why not restrict yourself to the Coke songs - and other English material - and relinquish the operatic arias and
Neapolitan/Italian song compilations to those who *are* interested in this neglected part of his legacy?"
How about it, Mr. Mannering? I know you read this forum :-)
Derek McGovern
judge: which Lanza version of Torna a Surriento would *you* choose to
represent him on a collection that purports to be Mario "at his vocal
best" - the 1951 Coke version:
http://www.4shared.com/file/36573209/36a53e2b/Torna_A_Surriento.html
Or the 1955 Serenade version?:
http://www.4shared.com/file/36573438/6e0221cc/Torna_a_Surriento.html
Why?
And here are the Neapolitan lyrics and English translation just to aid
your listening pleasure :-):
TORNA A SURRIENTO
G. B. De Curtis / E. De Curtis
Vide 'o mare quant'è bello,
Spira tantu sentimento,
Comme tu a chi tiene mente,
Ca scetato 'o faie sunnà.
Guarda, gua', chistu ciardino;
Siente, sie' sti sciure arance:
Nu profumo accussi fino
Dinto 'o core se ne va...
E tu dice: "I' parto, addio!"
T'alluntane da stu core...
Da sta terra de l'ammore...
Tiene 'o core 'e nun turnà?
Ma nun me lassà,
Nun darme stu turmiento!
Torna a Surriento,
famme campà!
COME BACK TO SORRENTO
Look at the sea, how beautiful it is,
inspiring many sentiments ,
as do your softly spoken words,
which make me dream all day.
See how this light breeze, comes from the
garden, bringing the scent of oranges,
a fragrance without parallel
for one whose heart is full of love!
And you say: "I am leaving, farewell!"
You would flee my heart...
this land of love...
how can you leave it behind?
Don't go away,
do not torture me any more!
Come back to Sorrento,
and do not let me die!
Joe Fagan
Thanks Derek, and I apologize if I got your "Irish" up~~~I didn't know all
that background.
P.S. a dumb , unimportant question: I got the impression from some of your
more recent Mario pictures, that our boy may have been "left-handed"....was
he? Just curious...Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Derek McGovern" <derek.m...@gmail.com>
To: "Mario Lanza, tenor" <mario...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 5:21 AM
Subject: Re: How do native Italians feel about Mario Lanza?
Derek McGovern
presented on CD is a worthy topic - even if we have strayed somewhat
from the original discussion.
I agree that the Coke Torna a Surriento features a couple of nice
touches - it's actually a rare Coke performance that doesn't - but
vocally as well as stylistically, it's still a very long way from
representing Lanza at his best.
Cheers
Derek
PS: Lanza was right-handed.
Jan Hodges
and there is more light and shade and control. Although there are some nice
touches in the Coke version
The Serenade version sounds as if more thought was given to the
interpretation. But then that is as it should be as Mario knew that it was
being recorded for numerous "playings" and so any singer would put more
thought into it.Also do we know how many "takes" that particular version
had?
Add to that Mario's maturity and the circumstances of the Coke Show
performances and is it any wonder that the Serenade version wins hands down
It really needs someone to go carefully through the Coke show songs and pick
out the excellent performances and consign the rest to the scrap heap. But
of course there is money to be made from these recordings so to some it
doesn't matter about the reputation of the artist.
I am sure Mario would be horrified.
Regards Jan
jora...@comcast.net
forum's view and with our signatures on a petiton , sent a list of
recommendations DIRECTLY to Mr Mannering aking him to please consider
it in his next compilation could be helpful.? Then he could submit it
to BMG as HIS choices ( after all, the objective is to get it
right...let him have the credit)
Derek McGovern
agree more with you regarding the superior control and use of light
and shade in Mario's 1955 Torna a Surriento. It's a magnificent piece
of singing, and my only regret is that it wasn't sung with an
orchestra. (Then again, it's nice sometimes to hear Lanza in
recital-type mode - just with a piano.)
You were asking how many takes were made of the 1955 version.
According to Warners' logs, this was take #2. It's quite possible,
though, in the case of the Coke Surriento that numerous takes were
made despite its inferior quality. After all, there were at least
eight different takes of the Coke Santa Lucia Luntana and five of 'Na
Sera 'e Maggio - and none of them came remotely close to the standard
Lanza would achieve years later with these same songs. The combination
of bad arrangements and the inartistic working conditions of Hollywood
were a large part of the problem here.
Derek McGovern
The only Italian critic I'm aware of who's discussed Lanza to any decent extent is Pasquale Santomartino, who wrote some nice things about him in his liner notes to the first volume of the 1970s (?) album Arie da Opere Italiane. But surely other Italian critics took note of Lanza's operatic singing in Serenade and other films? (Or listened to the Mario! and Caruso Favorites albums.)
Cheers
Derek
Armando
Hi Derek: As well as a critic and musicologist, Celetti was also a singing teacher.He placed great importance on technique and interpretation, so, on that basis, I imagine he would not have been indifferent to Lanza’s talent.
The only comment that I am aware he made about Lanza is one in passing in one of his books “La Grana della Voce” (The Texture of the Voice) in which he also talks about opera singers in films. In the book he stated “ The last hero of similar films was Mario Lanza whose example ignited the fantasy of a young Modenese, by the name of Luciano Pavarotti.”And that’s it. I’m sure there’s a lot more to it than that, but one would have to talk to those that knew him well, including Bergonzi, who, as we know, was quite impressed by some of Lanza’s recordings.
As for other Italian critics, who knows? But I could also add who cares, since I do know the opinion of at least two singing teachers of some renown. One was Antonio Moretti Pananti whom I knew personally since he lived for a number of years in Australia and the other one the tenor Fernando Bandiera who was teaching in Milan.
Pananti was a great friend of Tito Schipa and actually met Lanza shortly before the tenor’s death. He told me he was very heavy but extremely warm and friendly. He had not heard him sing live, but based on recordings and films he was very impressed by both voice and interpretation. In the early eighties Pananti moved back to his native city, Florence, and on one occasion when I visited him I happen to walk in just as Seven Hills of Rome was showing on TV and Lanza was singing M’appari. I made some remark to the effect that it was a pretty lousy film to which Pananti replied “Never mind that- listen to how he is turning the voice on the passaggio.”
He once said to me that Tito Schipa told him that the two greatest tenor voices he had ever heard were Lanza and Di Stefano. Not bad, since Schipa heard just about everybody else, including Caruso.
Bandera I didn’t know personally but through my friend, Maurizio Scardovi, who was studying with him. Bandera simply raved about Lanza and was after every rare or private recording he could get his hands on. I made copies of the three Bowl concerts for him and a few other things that I cannot recall.
So, I would say that, ultimately, it’s the opinion of fellow singers and voice experts that matters as opposed to what some critic might say.
Cari saluti
Armando
Derek McGovern
I guess the fact that Celletti taught voice himself would explain why he was so tough on poor old Carreras in the 1980s. While I imagine he would have admired Carreras' interpretive gifts, as a teacher he must surely have recognized the damage that Jose' was inflicting on his magnificent voice through a combination of the wrong roles (Manrico, Calaf, etc) and a faulty technique.
Doing a quick search just now, I did find one other passing Celletti reference to Lanza in this article on Caruso, which I found pretty over the top in places. For example: "[Caruso's] performances were characterized by the irresistible erotic appeal of his timbre." Now, in my mind, if there's one thing that Caruso's voice is not, it's erotic! Solid as a rock and powerful, yes, but sexy---never.
What an interesting fellow Pananti must have been. Roland Bessette assures us in his biography that by August 1959 Lanza was a "tragically impaired" man, but that description doesn't seem to tally with Pananti's firsthand account :) And I'm very impressed with Schipa's taste in tenors! (Which makes me wonder yet again: did Schipa ever hear Lanza sing in person?)
I just went and listened to the Seven Hills "M'Appari'" (slightly extended 'raw' version without the Imitation sequence). Yes, I can appreciate what Pananti was talking about, even if this isn't Mario anywhere near his best. (The appalling recording quality doesn't help, of course.) I would love to have sat down with Pananti and got his reaction to some of the great Lanza recordings, though!
Cheers
Derek
Armando
Hi Derek: Celletti acknowledged the beauty of the voices of both the early Carreras and Di Stefano, but condemned them equally for ruining their instruments by venturing far too early in heavier roles. He did feel, though, as do I, that interpretably Carrreas was mostly a copy of Di Stefano.
I certainly do not agree at all with Celletti’s statement about the “Irresistible erotic appeal of his [Caruso] timbre.” He was a marvellous singer who initially had to sweat blood in order to build his voice into the impressive instrument it became, but erotic? Certainly not.
Pananti a singer himself, (bass) was a man of few words. What I did manage to get out of him was, that apart from the obvious quality and range of the voice and the technically impressive way he used it, what he loved about Lanza was what we all love, namely the fire, the passion, and complete involvement with what he sang.
Of the singers he heard live he rated Di Stefano, as the greatest voice, Gigli the most technically complete, Schipa the greatest artist, and Del Monaco the loudest.
Pananti was singing in the chorus in one of Del Monaco’s performances, not far from him, and told me that the sound of his high notes was deafening!
I have no doubt that Schipa would have heard Lanza in person. I don’t think he would have made such a statement based merely on recordings.
One last thing about Pananti. He was teaching a tenor, an acquaintance of mine with a good voice but a rather dull fellow and something of a snob when it came to opera singers. During a lesson, Pananti suddenly stopped, put on a recording of Lanza and told the aspiring tenor “This is how you sing! Stunned look on the student’s face who shot back “ But he’s just a film singer!” to which Pananti, more or less, replied “Film singer or not that’s how you sing!”
To add insult to injury, a few years later the same fellow began to study with a renowned teacher in Denmark. Once again the lesson is interrupted, the teacher reaches for a video cassette, puts it in the player and what emerges is Lanza singing in The Great Caruso coupled with the teacher’s dreaded words” This is how you sing!
Have a good day!
Armando
Derek McGovern
It's very telling that the tenor was something of a snob. I've had encounters with similar types back in New Zealand, and I swear I could see the colour draining from their faces when I mentioned Lanza. They simply wouldn't accept that someone who had made his name in films could be taken seriously. Even in Italy in the late 1980s, I remember arguing with one fellow---a chorus member of the Rome Opera---who insisted that while Lanza was well suited to "le romanze," he was never an operatic prospect.
It no longer fazes me---in fact, I relish the opportunity to put such snobs in their places. Besides, as my trump card, I can always throw back in their faces all the extraordinary comments made about Lanza by everyone from Schipa to Calleja (and watch them squirm!). It's hard for an armchair critic of Lanza---or a local operatic society type---to claim that they know better than some of the world's great singers and conductors. But, as we both know, there are plenty of Lanza fans out there (particularly among those who inhabit operatic groups and forums) who, worried about losing "credibility" if they were to express how they really felt about Lanza, tailor their comments on him to suit the snobs' prejudices.
Just in the last few years, for example, I've encountered an older professor from a US university who felt he couldn't join this forum because of what he imagined his opera-loving friends and colleagues would think of him if he "came out" as a Lanza admirer (!), and another fellow who actually heard Lanza in person---and was blown away by the experience---but still feels he has to constantly play down his enthusiasm for fear of not being taken seriously as an opera buff. (It all stems, apparently, from the time that he once met a fellow opera lover at a musical soiree, and immediately got into an enjoyable, in-depth discussion on great singers. But when the latter subsequently found out the same evening about the former's love for Lanza, he actually walked up to him and said, "I can't believe I wasted twenty minutes talking to someone who actually likes Mario Lanza!")
I find it very sad that certain people feel they can't be true to themselves.
Mind you, many of the Lanza compilations are difficult to defend, and it's hard to disagree with someone who has no time for the tenor based solely on hearing him at his worst (or near-worst). That's why I feel you hit the nail on the head when you wrote near the beginning of this thread that, "any opera connoisseur, be he Italian or Eskimo, listening to a compilation of the very best of Lanza's live and commercial operatic recordings would rate him very highly, and in some instances as number one."
Cheers
Derek