Cicero in the Aeneid?

[Bill Walderman]

This is a very minor point and pure speculation, but I wonder whether
the apostrophe to Catiline in Aen. VIII 668 is intended to recall the
First Catilinarian and in particular its famous opening sentence. I
also wonder whether the reference to Catiline and possible echo of
Cicero's speech, in addition to presenting Catiline as an archetypical
villain of Roman history, might be a veiled eulogy of Cicero himself,
or at least a covert way of incorporating an outstanding figure of
late Republican Rome into the pageant of Roman history presented in
the Heldenschau of Book VI and the shield of Book VIII.

Cicero’s son had already been absorbed into Augustus’ camp by the time
of Actium, and Augustus himself is said to have expressed respect for
Cicero, but perhaps even writing in the 20s, Vergil would have shied
away from explicit praise of Cicero, which might call to mind
Augustus’ passive complicity in Cicero’s death two decades earlier and
(even worse) Augustus’ previous alliance with Antony.

Praise for an exemplary representative of the Old Order would be
consistent with Vergil’s at least partially sympathetic treatment of
those who found themselves on the wrong side of history (from Vergil’s
perspective), such as Dido and Turnus. After all, in the next breath
Vergil eulogizes Cato of Utica.

[David Wilson-Okamura]

My amateur take:

1. I think you're onto something, but what strikes me here is the
_omission_ of Cicero. Following the pattern of the other scenes, he
should be the hero of this one.

2. Is the omission a compliment or something else? What pushes me in
the direction of "something else" is the characterization of Drances
in Book 11. This sounds like Cicero in his Philippics mode (with
Turnus as Mark Antony). But in the epic, Turnus/Antony gets to answer
back. Is this reply Virgil's critique of Cicero? That's putting it too
crudely, and I don't for a second think that Turnus is Virgil's idea
of a literary critic. But there's enough truth in what he says, even
if it's exaggerated, that Virgil lets it stand.

--
Dr. David Wilson-Okamura    http://virgil.org          da...@virgil.org
English Department              Virgil reception, discussion, documents, &c
East Carolina University        Sparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet

[Leofranc Holford-Strevens]

On the other hand, 'orabunt causas melius' at 6. 849 would not have
delighted M. Tullius; and the only thing 8. 68 has in common with that
sentence is the vocative _Catilina_. I don't think anyone had a good word to
say for Catiline; even in 58, when Clodius (for Vergil an unperson) secured
Cicero's exile, it was for executing Lentulus & Co., who had not (yet) taken
up arms against the Republic. That whole period was a rather ticklish one
(incedis per ignes suppositos cineri doloso, as Horace had said)--which
would have been one reason for not writing an epic on Augustus even if the
notorious precedent of Choerilus had not sufficed as a warning.

[falmouth]

Like you, Servius somehow took these lines as an implicit complement to Cicero.

[8.668] SCELERUM POENAS pro 'sceleratorum'. et bene ait 'scelerum poenas'; in crimina enim personae incidunt, non ipsarum sunt proprie crimina: unde et sceleribus sunt statuta supplicia, quae in se incidentes homines obnoxios faciunt. ET TE CATILINA MINACI PENDENTEM SCOPULO hoc quasi in Ciceronis gratiam dictum videtur

Lefevre, E. (1998) 'Virgil as a Republican' in 'Vergil's Aeneid: Augustan Epic and Political Context' ed. Stahl, P. has some interesting stuff to say on such questions and has some analysis of the lines in question at pp. 109f.

On Drances = Cicero (?), Horsfall (in his commentary on Aeneid 11) is unpersuaded (giving bibliography).

[Leofranc Holford-Strevens]

If Drances = Cicero, jealousy of Turnus reduces his antagonism towards
Antony to a not very creditable and merely personal jealousy; nor is
'frigida bello dextera' fair to the victor of Pindenissus. (Come to that,
'genus huic materna superbum nobilias dabat, incertum de patre ferebat' is
hardly appropriate). In fact, if anything, Drances reminds me of Hannibal's
enemies in Carthage.

[David Wilson-Okamura]

On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Leofranc Holford-Strevens
<au...@gellius.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> If Drances = Cicero, jealousy of Turnus reduces his antagonism towards
> Antony to a not very creditable and merely personal jealousy

I don't have a big investment in this, but we needn't take Turnus'
evaluation of Drances at face value, any more than we take Drances' of
Turnus. They are both exaggerations, in what they say but also in what
they are.

I don't mean that dismissively; for "exaggerations," you could also
read "grand simplicifications" or "clarifications." As I see it,
that's one way in which an epic is different from a novel; novels
reveal complexity, epics reveal patterns. Virgil's case may be a
special one -- or maybe my definition of epic is just wrong -- because
his pattern is elaborated with epicycles (wheels within wheels). You
don't have to be a pessimist to hear more than one voice in the
Aeneid. But insofar as novels do complicate -- and I think they do --
they also lengthen; whereas Virgil, we know, favors brevity.

[Leofranc Holford-Strevens]

I was quoting Vergil's (or 'the poetic narrator's') own evaluation, 11.
336-41:

Tum Drances idem infensuss, quem gloria Turni
obliqua inuidia stimulisque agitabat amaris,
largus opum et lingua melior, sed frigida bello
dextera, consiliis habitus non futtilis auctor,
seditione potens (genus huic materna superbum
nobilitas dabat, incertum de patre ferebat) . . .

'Largus opum' doesn't suit Cicero, who lacked the _opes_; nor does
'seditione potens' (indeed, part of Cicero's problem was that he did not
possess the _potentia_, politely called _gratia_, to make his will count).

[Yvan Nadeau]

In my book "Safe and subsidized - Vergil and Horace sing Augustus", �ditions Latomus. Bruxelles 2004. I refer to Vergilian references to Cicero in the Aeneid and cite there other works dealing with the subject of the relation between Cicero and Augustan "Republican" credentials, including the latter's use of Cicero's son for propaganda.� I am sorry to refer to a work of my own, but a look at it might give guidance for further investigation to the members of the list interested in the question.

yn

Yvan Nadeau
yvann...@btinternet.com
3/13 Forrest Hill
EDINBURGH EH1 2QL
0131-225-8240
http://www.shca.ed.ac.uk/staff/hon_fellows/ynadeau/index.html

On 28/12/2011 17:27, Bill Walderman wrote:

This is a very minor point and pure speculation, but I wonder whether
the apostrophe to Catiline in Aen. VIII 668 is intended to recall the
First Catilinarian and in particular its famous opening sentence.  I
also wonder whether the reference to Catiline and possible echo of
Cicero's speech, in addition to presenting Catiline as an archetypical
villain of Roman history, might be a veiled eulogy of Cicero himself,
or at least a covert way of incorporating an outstanding figure of
late Republican Rome into the pageant of Roman history presented in
the Heldenschau of Book VI and the shield of Book VIII.

Cicero�s son had already been absorbed into Augustus� camp by the time
of Actium, and Augustus himself is said to have expressed respect for
Cicero, but perhaps even writing in the 20s, Vergil would have shied
away from explicit praise of Cicero, which might call to mind
Augustus� passive complicity in Cicero�s death two decades earlier and
(even worse) Augustus� previous alliance with Antony.

Praise for an exemplary representative of the Old Order would be
consistent with Vergil�s at least partially sympathetic treatment of
those who found themselves on the wrong side of history (from Vergil�s
perspective), such as Dido and Turnus.  After all, in the next breath
Vergil eulogizes Cato of Utica.

[Yvan Nadeau]

I should have mentioned in my previous message that the relevant part of
the book is Chapter II, sections 6 and 7.

yn

Yvan Nadeau
yvann...@btinternet.com
3/13 Forrest Hill
EDINBURGH EH1 2QL
0131-225-8240
http://www.shca.ed.ac.uk/staff/hon_fellows/ynadeau/index.html

On 28/12/2011 17:27, Bill Walderman wrote:

> This is a very minor point and pure speculation, but I wonder whether
> the apostrophe to Catiline in Aen. VIII 668 is intended to recall the
> First Catilinarian and in particular its famous opening sentence. I
> also wonder whether the reference to Catiline and possible echo of
> Cicero's speech, in addition to presenting Catiline as an archetypical
> villain of Roman history, might be a veiled eulogy of Cicero himself,
> or at least a covert way of incorporating an outstanding figure of
> late Republican Rome into the pageant of Roman history presented in
> the Heldenschau of Book VI and the shield of Book VIII.
>

> Cicero�s son had already been absorbed into Augustus� camp by the time

> of Actium, and Augustus himself is said to have expressed respect for
> Cicero, but perhaps even writing in the 20s, Vergil would have shied
> away from explicit praise of Cicero, which might call to mind

> Augustus� passive complicity in Cicero�s death two decades earlier and
> (even worse) Augustus� previous alliance with Antony.

>
> Praise for an exemplary representative of the Old Order would be

> consistent with Vergil�s at least partially sympathetic treatment of
> those who found themselves on the wrong side of history (from Vergil�s

[Bill Walderman]

Thanks for the quote from Servius--I should have looked at him before
posting. But none of the other commentators currently at my disposal--
Conington, Grandsden, Williams and Fordyce--mentioned anything about
Cicero on line 668. I recognize, of course, that Servius' note
doesn't confirm my suspicion, especially since he doesn't give any
explanation for suggesting a reference to Cicero.

[Bill Walderman]

Your point about 'orabunt causas melius' is well-taken.

It wasn't just the vocative that prompted my suggestion--it was the
sudden shift to apostrophe and the 2nd person pronoun that resonated
in my mind with the First Catilinarian when I read the passage in Book
VIII. Of course, Vergil (like other poets) from time to time
apostrophizes in the midst of narration, either to add variety or
perhaps sometimes metri gratia, but usually, it seems to me, the shift
to apostrophe expresses sympathy with the addressee and pathos, not,
as here, condemnation. But I recognize that my suggestion is pure
speculation. Thanks for your reaction.

On Dec 28, 2:56 pm, "Leofranc Holford-Strevens"

[David Wilson-Okamura]

On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Leofranc Holford-Strevens
<au...@gellius.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 'Largus opum' doesn't suit Cicero, who lacked the _opes_; nor does
> 'seditione potens' (indeed, part of Cicero's problem was that he did not
> possess the _potentia_, politely called _gratia_, to make his will count).

Quite true. And if someone were arguing that Cicero had been
transposed, whole, into Virgil's fictional world, this would be fatal.
But that is not, to judge from other examples that we probably agree
on, how Virgil works. Aeneas is, in some things, clearly modeled on
Augustus, but there are many points where the resemblance fails. The
same is true for Dido and Cleopatra and (I don't think it is hard to
argue) Anchises and Caesar. The correspondence is never 1:1, but we
all see a correspondence.

But the general principle does not prove the particular case. Drances
is a minor character, and minor discrepancies tell more. Are there
enough points of resemblance -- or is the main point of resemblance
weighty enough -- to hypothesize a correspondence?

[falmouth]

On 'orabunt causas melius' (Aen. 6.849)

Absolute precision would demand noting that these words are not spoken by the poetic narrator but by Anchises. Indeed, the loose equivalence Anchises~Julius Caesar, is not wholly inappropriate for focalising the 'Augustan' precepts at 6.847ff

excudent alii spirantia mollius aera

(credo equidem), uiuos ducent de marmore uultus,

orabunt causas melius, caelique meatus

describent radio et surgentia sidera dicent:               850

tu regere imperio populos, Romane, memento

(hae tibi erunt artes), pacique imponere morem,

parcere subiectis et debellare superbos.'

clementia being a virtue particularly associated with Julius Caesar and (one might fairly comment) one particularly lacking in the young Octavian [1]. Anchises (~Julius Caesar) advocated clementia but Aeneas (~Aeneas) does not practice clementia vis-a-vis Turnus. Perhaps the e.g. of Julius Caesar showed that clementia was not invariably sufficient. Or one might say that all of 6.847ff is misdirection - one can expect a society which does not fully embrace oratory, philosophy and art to be vulnerable to internecine violence. 

On Drances, I, myself, cannot escape the feeling that Vergil has something specific in mind with the characterisation of Drances, but probably not Cicero. Drances seems to be a puzzle not dissimilar to the Corycian gardener in Geo. 4 (which, to my thinking, still escapes fully satisfactory interpretation). But perhaps these Vergilian sketches are deliberately diffuse and non-solveable.

[1] But NB that JC was interested in the arts

[Leofranc Holford-Strevens]

I’m not sure the Gauls would have seen clementia in Caesar’s dealings with them; it was the Romans he had defeated in the Civil War to whom he displayed it, little indeed as they relished a master’s grace. But whatever there may be of him in Anchises, it is there only when the poet wants it to be: Anchises, after all, dies of old age. For the matter of that, Caesar not only himself pleaded causes on the way up, but admired Cicero’s oratory and his intellectual achievements.

 

[Bill Walderman]

"orabunt alii" -- This is indeed a surprising statement on Anchises'
part, given the robust tradition of Roman oratory, but perhaps it
reflects the fact that in V.'s day Roman adolescents would have been
taught rhetoric primarily through the study of Greek treatises and
texts, wouldn't they?

On Dec 29, 4:10 pm, falmouth <adrianj...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On 'orabunt causas melius' (Aen. 6.849)
>
> Absolute precision would demand noting that these words are not spoken by
> the poetic narrator but by Anchises. Indeed, the loose equivalence
> Anchises~Julius Caesar, is not wholly inappropriate for focalising the
> 'Augustan' precepts at 6.847ff
>
> excudent alii spirantia mollius aera
> (credo equidem), uiuos ducent de marmore uultus,
> orabunt causas melius, caelique meatus
> describent radio et surgentia sidera dicent:               850
> tu regere imperio populos, Romane, memento
> (hae tibi erunt artes), pacique imponere morem,
> parcere subiectis et debellare superbos.'
>

> *clementia *being a virtue particularly associated with Julius Caesar and

> (one might fairly comment) one particularly lacking in the young Octavian

> [1]. Anchises (~Julius Caesar) advocated *clementia* but Aeneas (~Aeneas)
> does not practice *clementia *vis-a-vis Turnus. Perhaps the e.g. of Julius
> Caesar showed that *clementia *was not invariably sufficient. Or one might