'Bis, bis' bis
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Martin50
Mar 14, 2009, 2:40:08 PM3/14/09
to Mantovano
Stephen Harrison recently addressed the Virgil Society on the subject
of the Laudes Italiae - found in Geo.II 136 +. He is one who believes
in taking the Laudes at face value, as Hesiodic poetry in the
Caesarian cause. Of course there's a possible rival view, that V used
the trick that some Russian intellectuals are said to have used in
Stalin's time of driving praise of Fatherland and Vozhd to such
obviously incredible lengths that its insincerity could be discerned
but not discussed. I'm looking for a sort of middle way.
The best argument for the 'manifest insincerity' view lies, I suppose,
in line 450 - 'bis gravidae pecudes, bis pomis utilis arbos', which
seems on the face of it to make an obviously false statement about the
fertility of flocks and trees in Italy.
The passage has many cross-references and presumably should be
understood by reference to these - perhaps the emphatic 'bis, bis' is
an instruction by V to look for themes that he repeats.
The 'bis, bis' formula itself recurs in lines 410-411 in a much more
gritty setting about how you have to work 'eternally' in breaking and
clearing the ground around vines, preventing them from being
overshadowed or choked with weeds, both of which threats arise 'bis'.
Saturn is mentioned here, as he is in the Laudes passage and in the
concluding words of the book.
Commentators remind us that we're talking about the Golden Age versus
the Iron Age, which means that in some sense we talking about what is
imagined versus what is real. The recurrence of certain words in the
Iron/realism-laden atmosphere of the Eternal Work passage emphasises
the Golden/fantasy nature of the Laudes.
But to weave a fantasy around the Fatherland is not necessary to
declare the fantasy deceptive or to resort to plainly excessive,
implicitly insincere praise.
Book III begins with V's declaration that it is in terms of fantasy
and mythology that he will explain and that we will come to understand
the historic role of the Vozhd. It's reasonable to attribute to V an
awareness of the immense literary and moral dangers in this
undertaking, and indeed the fate of Gallus, a poet and friend whom the
Vozhd was about to vaporise, would have reminded him of these rather
forcibly. This doesn't mean that V was starting to work in the
language of obvious insincerity, though he does choose to mark a clash
in his ideas by referring twice - bis! - to festivals at which meat
is eaten. Those events are first (end Book II) a sign of the brutal
impiety of the Iron Age and then (opening Book III) become part of a
pleasant, indeed golden, prospect.
of the Laudes Italiae - found in Geo.II 136 +. He is one who believes
in taking the Laudes at face value, as Hesiodic poetry in the
Caesarian cause. Of course there's a possible rival view, that V used
the trick that some Russian intellectuals are said to have used in
Stalin's time of driving praise of Fatherland and Vozhd to such
obviously incredible lengths that its insincerity could be discerned
but not discussed. I'm looking for a sort of middle way.
The best argument for the 'manifest insincerity' view lies, I suppose,
in line 450 - 'bis gravidae pecudes, bis pomis utilis arbos', which
seems on the face of it to make an obviously false statement about the
fertility of flocks and trees in Italy.
The passage has many cross-references and presumably should be
understood by reference to these - perhaps the emphatic 'bis, bis' is
an instruction by V to look for themes that he repeats.
The 'bis, bis' formula itself recurs in lines 410-411 in a much more
gritty setting about how you have to work 'eternally' in breaking and
clearing the ground around vines, preventing them from being
overshadowed or choked with weeds, both of which threats arise 'bis'.
Saturn is mentioned here, as he is in the Laudes passage and in the
concluding words of the book.
Commentators remind us that we're talking about the Golden Age versus
the Iron Age, which means that in some sense we talking about what is
imagined versus what is real. The recurrence of certain words in the
Iron/realism-laden atmosphere of the Eternal Work passage emphasises
the Golden/fantasy nature of the Laudes.
But to weave a fantasy around the Fatherland is not necessary to
declare the fantasy deceptive or to resort to plainly excessive,
implicitly insincere praise.
Book III begins with V's declaration that it is in terms of fantasy
and mythology that he will explain and that we will come to understand
the historic role of the Vozhd. It's reasonable to attribute to V an
awareness of the immense literary and moral dangers in this
undertaking, and indeed the fate of Gallus, a poet and friend whom the
Vozhd was about to vaporise, would have reminded him of these rather
forcibly. This doesn't mean that V was starting to work in the
language of obvious insincerity, though he does choose to mark a clash
in his ideas by referring twice - bis! - to festivals at which meat
is eaten. Those events are first (end Book II) a sign of the brutal
impiety of the Iron Age and then (opening Book III) become part of a
pleasant, indeed golden, prospect.
John Van Sickle
Mar 14, 2009, 3:07:52 PM3/14/09
to Mantovano
A judicious grasp of imaginative & ideological polarities within the composing mind...that after (sc. before) all could compass first Meliboeus & Tityrus....
http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/classics/jvsickle
http://www.flickr.com/photos/photophorica/collections/
falmouth
Mar 14, 2009, 5:52:31 PM3/14/09
to Mantovano
One thing that has struck me about the Laus Italiae is whether it is
truly a Laus Italiae or rather a 'Laus (?)' Romae or 'Laus(?)'
Romanorum: we think we're talking about the miraculous fecundity of a
"Saturnia tellus", but the emphasis is rather on "bellator equus",
"Romanos...triumphos", "egregias urbes operumque laborem",
"congesta... oppida", "antiquos ... muros", "portus Lucrinoque addita
claustra" (how unSaturnian is that?), "Romanis arcibus", "Romana per
oppida". Italy and Rome, of course, are two very different things,
despite Octavian's claim to represent all Italy.
With that in mind, when one reads,
hinc albi, Clitumne, greges et maxima, taurus,
uictima, saepe tuo perfusi flumine sacro,
Romanos ad templa deum duxere triumphos.
should one not entertain the possiblity that (the truly Saturnian)
Italy (derived from 'vitulus' according to Varro) is the blood-
drenched *victim* of Roman triumphs - maxima, taurus, / **victima**
(NB the heavy emphasis)?
(cf.
"[12] They [i.e. those whose farms had been confiscated] came to Rome
in crowds, young and old, women and children, to the forum and
temples, uttering lamentations, saying that they had done no wrong for
which they, Italians, should be driven from their fields and their
hearthstones, like people conquered in war. The Romans mourned and
wept with them, especially when they reflected that the war had been
waged, and the rewards of victory given, not on behalf of the
commonwealth, but against themselves and for a change of the form of
government; that the colonies were established to the end that
democracy should never again lift its head - colonies composed of
hirelings settled there by the rulers to be in readiness for whatever
purpose they might be wanted. [13] Octavian explained to the cities
the necessity of the case, but he knew that it would not satisfy them;
and it did not." (App. BC 5.12-13))
On 14 Mar, 19:07, "John Van Sickle" <JVSic...@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
wrote:
> pleasant, indeed golden, prospect.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
truly a Laus Italiae or rather a 'Laus (?)' Romae or 'Laus(?)'
Romanorum: we think we're talking about the miraculous fecundity of a
"Saturnia tellus", but the emphasis is rather on "bellator equus",
"Romanos...triumphos", "egregias urbes operumque laborem",
"congesta... oppida", "antiquos ... muros", "portus Lucrinoque addita
claustra" (how unSaturnian is that?), "Romanis arcibus", "Romana per
oppida". Italy and Rome, of course, are two very different things,
despite Octavian's claim to represent all Italy.
With that in mind, when one reads,
hinc albi, Clitumne, greges et maxima, taurus,
uictima, saepe tuo perfusi flumine sacro,
Romanos ad templa deum duxere triumphos.
should one not entertain the possiblity that (the truly Saturnian)
Italy (derived from 'vitulus' according to Varro) is the blood-
drenched *victim* of Roman triumphs - maxima, taurus, / **victima**
(NB the heavy emphasis)?
(cf.
"[12] They [i.e. those whose farms had been confiscated] came to Rome
in crowds, young and old, women and children, to the forum and
temples, uttering lamentations, saying that they had done no wrong for
which they, Italians, should be driven from their fields and their
hearthstones, like people conquered in war. The Romans mourned and
wept with them, especially when they reflected that the war had been
waged, and the rewards of victory given, not on behalf of the
commonwealth, but against themselves and for a change of the form of
government; that the colonies were established to the end that
democracy should never again lift its head - colonies composed of
hirelings settled there by the rulers to be in readiness for whatever
purpose they might be wanted. [13] Octavian explained to the cities
the necessity of the case, but he knew that it would not satisfy them;
and it did not." (App. BC 5.12-13))
On 14 Mar, 19:07, "John Van Sickle" <JVSic...@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
wrote:
> A judicious grasp of imaginative & ideological polarities within the composing mind...that after (sc. before) all could compass first Meliboeus & Tityrus....
>
> http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/classics/jvsicklehttp://www.flickr.com/photos/photophorica/collections/
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
John B. Van Sickle
Mar 14, 2009, 7:01:17 PM3/14/09
to Mantovano
At 05:52 PM 3/14/2009, falmouth wrote:
Italians, should be driven from their fields and their
hearthstones, like people conquered in war.
cf.
Meliboeus in ecl. 1, nos patriae fines et dulcia linquimus arva
etc.
impius haec tam culta novalia miles habebit | barbarus has segestes.
impius haec tam culta novalia miles habebit | barbarus has segestes.
colonies composed of hirelings settled there by the
rulers to be in readiness for whatever
purpose they might be wanted. [13] Octavian explained to the cities
with aid of
Tityrus, deus nobis haec otia fecit ..
falmouth
Mar 15, 2009, 4:19:04 AM3/15/09
to Mantovano
There is, I think, something akin to very dark irony going on when
praising the marvellous fertility of Italy at a time when the people
were starving (or at least famine was a recent memory).
Similarly, Vergil’s “heu magnum alterius frustra spectabis aceruum /
concussaque famem in siluis solabere quercu.” (Geo. 1.158-9) must
reflect a very real sentiment felt during the civil wars by Italians
with hungry eyes on Antony and Cleopatra's Egyptian grain. Contrast
Griffin (1981) 32 (“gently humorous”) and Jenkins (1999) 340 (“It
sounds a bit gloomy, but farmers do grumble... the picture [is] quaint
and bantering... the ‘heu’ ... is humorously grave”).
Finally, there is deadly serious intent to G.1.41-2 “ignarosque uiae
mecum miseratus agrestis / ingredere et uotis iam nunc adsuesce
uocari” - the 'agrestis' did not know the Via until they uprooted by
the land confiscations (cf. Ecl. 9.1 for the import of the 'Via').
On 14 Mar, 23:01, "John B. Van Sickle" <jvsic...@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
wrote:
praising the marvellous fertility of Italy at a time when the people
were starving (or at least famine was a recent memory).
Similarly, Vergil’s “heu magnum alterius frustra spectabis aceruum /
concussaque famem in siluis solabere quercu.” (Geo. 1.158-9) must
reflect a very real sentiment felt during the civil wars by Italians
with hungry eyes on Antony and Cleopatra's Egyptian grain. Contrast
Griffin (1981) 32 (“gently humorous”) and Jenkins (1999) 340 (“It
sounds a bit gloomy, but farmers do grumble... the picture [is] quaint
and bantering... the ‘heu’ ... is humorously grave”).
Finally, there is deadly serious intent to G.1.41-2 “ignarosque uiae
mecum miseratus agrestis / ingredere et uotis iam nunc adsuesce
uocari” - the 'agrestis' did not know the Via until they uprooted by
the land confiscations (cf. Ecl. 9.1 for the import of the 'Via').
On 14 Mar, 23:01, "John B. Van Sickle" <jvsic...@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
wrote:
Leofranc Holford-Strevens
Mar 15, 2009, 5:34:51 AM3/15/09
to mant...@googlegroups.com
The structure of Geo. 158-9 echoes and inverts Lucretius 2. 1-2
Suaue mari magno turbantibus aequora uentis
e terra magnum alterius spectare laborem;
how pleasant the one, how galling the other. But in context it won't be the
dynasts' fau;t, but your own for not weeding the soil properly.
Leofranc Holford-Strevens
67 St Bernard's Road
Oxford
usque adeone
OX2 6EJ scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat
alter?
tel. +44 (0) 1865 552808 (home)/353865 (work) fax +44 (0) 1865 512237
Suaue mari magno turbantibus aequora uentis
e terra magnum alterius spectare laborem;
how pleasant the one, how galling the other. But in context it won't be the
dynasts' fau;t, but your own for not weeding the soil properly.
Leofranc Holford-Strevens
67 St Bernard's Road
Oxford
usque adeone
OX2 6EJ scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat
alter?
tel. +44 (0) 1865 552808 (home)/353865 (work) fax +44 (0) 1865 512237
falmouth
Mar 15, 2009, 6:49:06 AM3/15/09
to Mantovano
But the ultimate reason is "pater ipse colendi /
haud facilem esse uiam uoluit" (Geo. 1.121-2) and "labor /
improbus" (Geo. 1.145-6), whatever one makes of that, given the
historical context.
The positive reading of this goes something like, 'well, surely it's
ultimately a good thing that Jupiter prompts man's progress", but
would a contemporary not feel entitled to ask 'why are (were) these
such hard times for the general populace, in particular the Italian
countryfolk?' ('duris urgens in rebus egestas') - 'was that really
such an inevitability?'.
On 15 Mar, 09:34, "Leofranc Holford-Strevens"
> > with aid of Tityrus, deus nobis haec otia fecit ..- Hide quoted text -
haud facilem esse uiam uoluit" (Geo. 1.121-2) and "labor /
improbus" (Geo. 1.145-6), whatever one makes of that, given the
historical context.
The positive reading of this goes something like, 'well, surely it's
ultimately a good thing that Jupiter prompts man's progress", but
would a contemporary not feel entitled to ask 'why are (were) these
such hard times for the general populace, in particular the Italian
countryfolk?' ('duris urgens in rebus egestas') - 'was that really
such an inevitability?'.
On 15 Mar, 09:34, "Leofranc Holford-Strevens"
Leofranc Holford-Strevens
Mar 15, 2009, 7:18:25 AM3/15/09
to mant...@googlegroups.com
Fair enough, but the gods aren't supposed to love the human race and
therefore cannot be supposed to be under an obligation to make things easy
for them. Romans of course did expect the gods to see them right if they
gave them their due, but that was no comfort after recent events.
therefore cannot be supposed to be under an obligation to make things easy
for them. Romans of course did expect the gods to see them right if they
gave them their due, but that was no comfort after recent events.
falmouth
Mar 15, 2009, 8:04:30 AM3/15/09
to Mantovano
It's not just that Jupiter does not feel under an obligation to make
things easy for men, but that he goes out of his way to positively
arrange things such that they are not easy (and 'haud facilem' really
denotes not just a lack of ease, but positive adversity); this is
worse than the already quite dispiriting (if liberating, in e.g. a
Lucretian context) perspective that the gods are disinterested/self-
interested rather than benevolent. In terms of theodicy, perhaps one
is not too far distant from the (sinister) 'boule' of Zeus in the
Iliad. But I think my point is more: surely the 'optimistic'
interpretation is rather too glib for those who have just
experienced / are still experiencing 'egestas' of an unusually severe
degree?
On 15 Mar, 11:18, "Leofranc Holford-Strevens"
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
things easy for men, but that he goes out of his way to positively
arrange things such that they are not easy (and 'haud facilem' really
denotes not just a lack of ease, but positive adversity); this is
worse than the already quite dispiriting (if liberating, in e.g. a
Lucretian context) perspective that the gods are disinterested/self-
interested rather than benevolent. In terms of theodicy, perhaps one
is not too far distant from the (sinister) 'boule' of Zeus in the
Iliad. But I think my point is more: surely the 'optimistic'
interpretation is rather too glib for those who have just
experienced / are still experiencing 'egestas' of an unusually severe
degree?
On 15 Mar, 11:18, "Leofranc Holford-Strevens"
sus...@aol.com
Mar 16, 2009, 8:50:04 PM3/16/09
to mant...@googlegroups.com
Thank you all ! I enjoy reading this banter more than you could imagine!
-----Original Message-----
From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <au...@gellius.demon.co.uk>
To: mant...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 7:18 am
Subject: VIRGIL: Re: 'Bis, bis' bis
All I can say is "Deus Ex Machina! "
Regards, Susanna
-----Original Message-----
From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <au...@gellius.demon.co.uk>
To: mant...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 7:18 am
Subject: VIRGIL: Re: 'Bis, bis' bis
Fair enough, but the gods aren't supposed to love the human race and therefore cannot be supposed to be under an obligation to make things easy for them. Romans of course did expect the gods to see them right if they gave them their due, but that was no comfort after recent events. Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road Oxford usque adeone OX2 6EJ scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? tel. +44 (0) 1865 552808 (home)/353865 (work) fax +44 (0) 1865 512237 ----- Original Message ----- From: "falmouth" <adria...@googlemail.com> To: "Mantovano" <mant...@googlegroups.com
>
Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 10:49 AM
Subject: VIRGIL: Re: 'Bis, bis' bis
But the ultimate reason is "pater ipse=2
0colendi /
haud facilem esse uiam uoluit" (Geo. 1.121-2) and "labor /
improbus" (Geo. 1.145-6), whatever one makes of that, given the
historical context.
The positive reading of this goes something like, 'well, surely it's
ultimately a good thing that Jupiter prompts man's progress", but
would a contemporary not feel entitled to ask 'why are (were) these
such hard times for the general populace, in particular the Italian
countryfolk?' ('duris urgens in rebus egestas') - 'was that really
such an inevitability?'.
On 15 Mar, 09:34, "Leofranc Holford-Strevens"
<au...@gellius.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> The structure of Geo. 158-9 echoes and inverts Lucretius 2. 1-2
>
> Suaue mari magno turbantibus aequora uentis
> e terra magnum alterius spectare laborem;
>
> how pleasant the one, how galling the other. But in context it won't be
> the
> dynasts' fau;t, but your own for not weeding the soil properly.
>
> Leofranc Holford-Strevens
> 67 St Bernard's Road
> Oxford
> usque adeone
> OX2 6EJ scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat
> alter?
>
> tel. +44 (0) 1865 552808 (home)/353865 (work) fax +44 (0) 1865 512237
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "falmouth" <adrianj...@googlemail.com>
> To: "Mantovano" <mant...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 8:19 AM
> Subject: VIRGIL: Re: 'Bis, bis' bis
>
> There is, I think, something akin to very dark irony going on when
> prai
sing the marvellous fertility of Italy at a time when the people
> were starving (or at least famine was a recent memory).
>
> Similarly, Vergil’s “heu magnum alterius frustra spectabis aceruum /
> concussaque famem in siluis solabere quercu.” (Geo. 1.158-9) must
> reflect a very real sentiment felt during the civil wars by Italians
> with hungry eyes on Antony and Cleopatra's Egyptian grain. Contrast
> Griffin (1981) 32 (“gently humorous”) and Jenkins (1999) 340 (“It
> sounds a bit gloomy, but farmers do grumble... the picture [is] quaint
> and bantering... the ‘heu’ ... is humorously grave”).
>
> Finally, there is deadly serious intent to G.1.41-2 “ignarosque uiae
> mecum miseratus agrestis / ingredere et uotis iam nunc adsuesce
> uocari” - the 'agrestis' did not know the Via until they uprooted by
> the land confiscations (cf. Ecl. 9.1 for the import of the 'Via').
>
> On 14 Mar, 23:01, "John B. Van Sickle" <jvsic...@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
> wrote:
> > At 05:52 PM 3/14/2009, falmouth wrote:>Italians, should be driven from
> > their fields and their
> > >hearthstones, like people conquered in war.
>
> > cf. Meliboeus in ecl. 1, nos patriae fines et dulcia linquimus arva etc..
> > impius haec tam culta novalia miles habebit | barbarus has segestes.
> > colonies composed of hirelings settled there by the rulers to be in
> > readiness for whatever>purpose they might be wanted. [13] Octavian
> >=2
0explained to the cities
>
> > with aid of Tityrus, deus nobis haec otia fecit ..- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Román Facundo Espino
Mar 17, 2009, 8:00:19 AM3/17/09
to mant...@googlegroups.com
Regarding the god´s matter, an interesting perspective is Powell´s Virgil the Partisan, especially the chapter "The Theft of Pietas". Powell argues that Virgil´s was a revolutionary concept, because, in the Aeneid, it´s almost like the gods were subordinated to humans by the very universal nature of pietas.
Regards
Román
Yahoo! Cocina
Recetas prácticas y comida saludable
Visitá http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/
Martin50
Mar 17, 2009, 4:52:23 PM3/17/09
to Mantovano
Thanks for all the comments: I'm thinking about them. So far no one
here seems to see the same cloudless imperialist vista as Harrison
does!
How do we understand the opening imperative 'ne certent' - let the
other lands not compete for praise with Italy? Is the presupposition
'everyone knows that they'd lose' or 'I, as an Italian, wouldn't
concede to them'? A bit of both, I suppose - but to some extent V is
bringing himself and his patriotic disposition into this overtly
objective and didactic work, so to some extent this Italy is not just
the real Italy but 'my homeland' for each reader.
In this context, let me mention my first impression of the Laudes,
which may still be with me to some extent. I took it entirely in the
way Harrison approves (I was more imperialist then) and I found the
imagery engaging and pleasant, but it didn't make me especially want
to visit Italy: I must somehow have regarded the historic landscape of
England as fitting V's bill. Had I been an American, with fewer
antiqui muri to think of, would I have reacted differently? But
perhaps in a way mine was the reaction that V intended to evoke - the
antiqui muri summoning the ideas of continuity and safety that we all
like, with whatever degree of illusion, to associate with 'my
homeland', 'our place'.
- Martin Hughes
here seems to see the same cloudless imperialist vista as Harrison
does!
How do we understand the opening imperative 'ne certent' - let the
other lands not compete for praise with Italy? Is the presupposition
'everyone knows that they'd lose' or 'I, as an Italian, wouldn't
concede to them'? A bit of both, I suppose - but to some extent V is
bringing himself and his patriotic disposition into this overtly
objective and didactic work, so to some extent this Italy is not just
the real Italy but 'my homeland' for each reader.
In this context, let me mention my first impression of the Laudes,
which may still be with me to some extent. I took it entirely in the
way Harrison approves (I was more imperialist then) and I found the
imagery engaging and pleasant, but it didn't make me especially want
to visit Italy: I must somehow have regarded the historic landscape of
England as fitting V's bill. Had I been an American, with fewer
antiqui muri to think of, would I have reacted differently? But
perhaps in a way mine was the reaction that V intended to evoke - the
antiqui muri summoning the ideas of continuity and safety that we all
like, with whatever degree of illusion, to associate with 'my
homeland', 'our place'.
- Martin Hughes
Leofranc Holford-Strevens
Mar 17, 2009, 6:51:32 PM3/17/09
to mant...@googlegroups.com
I have to admit I'm an unreconstructed imperialist, but why shouldn't
Harrison be right? You don't need to admire poets' politics to admire their
poetry while admitting that they were theirs, be they Brecht's Marxism or
the loyal enthusiasm for the strong man of the moment of Claudian (who is
happy enough to repeat Stilicho's lie about being Arcadius' protector as
well as Honorius). After all, even Ceaus,escu found and paid poets to laud
him as 'our demigod'; for all I know Shona praise-poets are doing the same
for Mugabe even now.
Leofranc Holford-Strevens
67 St Bernard's Road
Oxford
usque adeone
OX2 6EJ scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat
alter?
tel. +44 (0) 1865 552808 (home)/353865 (work) fax +44 (0) 1865 512237
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin50" <rosema...@talktalk.net>
To: "Mantovano" <mant...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 8:52 PM
Subject: VIRGIL: Re: 'Bis, bis' bis
Harrison be right? You don't need to admire poets' politics to admire their
poetry while admitting that they were theirs, be they Brecht's Marxism or
the loyal enthusiasm for the strong man of the moment of Claudian (who is
happy enough to repeat Stilicho's lie about being Arcadius' protector as
well as Honorius). After all, even Ceaus,escu found and paid poets to laud
him as 'our demigod'; for all I know Shona praise-poets are doing the same
for Mugabe even now.
Leofranc Holford-Strevens
67 St Bernard's Road
Oxford
usque adeone
OX2 6EJ scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat
alter?
tel. +44 (0) 1865 552808 (home)/353865 (work) fax +44 (0) 1865 512237
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin50" <rosema...@talktalk.net>
To: "Mantovano" <mant...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 8:52 PM
Subject: VIRGIL: Re: 'Bis, bis' bis
falmouth
Mar 18, 2009, 6:07:25 AM3/18/09
to Mantovano
I suppose it's remarkable in itself and not without significance that
such a range of responses can be sustained (I mean not just here, but
in Vergilian criticism generally). There's no doubt that the 'laus
Italiae' holds itself out as an unabashedly positive view of Italy,
Rome and empire. Where people differ is whether one should take this
at full face value. Even if one does not, that is, one allows that
Vergil looks on Italy, Rome and empire and recent history with a
critical eye and passes negative comment, it does not entail that
Vergil was anti-Augustan or indeed anti-Rome. The most extreme view -
that Vergil's true allegiances - which, on the hypothesis, can be
detected through closer and closer reading of his texts - are the
opposite to that which he presents and that which he is recorded as
having, namely to Maecenas and then Octavian - is probably one that
even most 'pessimists' would disavow.
I find myself most aligned towards the 'pessimist' side of the
argument (as will have probably already been obvious...!). But I would
stop well short of the suggestion that Vergil is anti-Augustan in the
full sense of the word. Rather, I think that Vergil points up all the
negative aspects of recent history and human nature, and seldom makes
a positive statement without the suggestion of qualification. This is
a method which I find unsurprising in the context, given (i) the
lamentable, indeed horrific, recent history of Italy and Rome; (ii)
the 'rights' and 'wrongs' were far from clear (if indeed, there were
any 'rights'); and (iii) that Octavian had been a far from pleasant
individual.
Leofranc's suggestion that the argument is, in part, prompted by (i)
the feeling that we want our favourite poet to have similar political
responses to our own; and (ii) a feeling of regret that our favourite
poet might be 'just' a propagandist, may well be correct, but
ultimately the justification for a pessimistic reading must be the
texts themselves.
On Mar 17, 10:51 pm, "Leofranc Holford-Strevens"
> > pleasant, indeed golden, prospect.- Hide quoted text -
such a range of responses can be sustained (I mean not just here, but
in Vergilian criticism generally). There's no doubt that the 'laus
Italiae' holds itself out as an unabashedly positive view of Italy,
Rome and empire. Where people differ is whether one should take this
at full face value. Even if one does not, that is, one allows that
Vergil looks on Italy, Rome and empire and recent history with a
critical eye and passes negative comment, it does not entail that
Vergil was anti-Augustan or indeed anti-Rome. The most extreme view -
that Vergil's true allegiances - which, on the hypothesis, can be
detected through closer and closer reading of his texts - are the
opposite to that which he presents and that which he is recorded as
having, namely to Maecenas and then Octavian - is probably one that
even most 'pessimists' would disavow.
I find myself most aligned towards the 'pessimist' side of the
argument (as will have probably already been obvious...!). But I would
stop well short of the suggestion that Vergil is anti-Augustan in the
full sense of the word. Rather, I think that Vergil points up all the
negative aspects of recent history and human nature, and seldom makes
a positive statement without the suggestion of qualification. This is
a method which I find unsurprising in the context, given (i) the
lamentable, indeed horrific, recent history of Italy and Rome; (ii)
the 'rights' and 'wrongs' were far from clear (if indeed, there were
any 'rights'); and (iii) that Octavian had been a far from pleasant
individual.
Leofranc's suggestion that the argument is, in part, prompted by (i)
the feeling that we want our favourite poet to have similar political
responses to our own; and (ii) a feeling of regret that our favourite
poet might be 'just' a propagandist, may well be correct, but
ultimately the justification for a pessimistic reading must be the
texts themselves.
On Mar 17, 10:51 pm, "Leofranc Holford-Strevens"
John B. Van Sickle
Mar 16, 2009, 10:34:30 PM3/16/09
to mant...@googlegroups.com
worth perhaps recalling that Octavian via coinage took pains
to identify himself with Jupiter in the duumviral period....
cf. Iovis omnia plena...magnum Iovis incrementum...aspice venturo laetentur ut omnia saeclo...o mihi tum longae maneat pars ultima vitae |spiritus et quantum sat erit tua dicere facta...
At 08:50 PM 3/16/2009, sus...@aol.com wrote:
cf. Iovis omnia plena...magnum Iovis incrementum...aspice venturo laetentur ut omnia saeclo...o mihi tum longae maneat pars ultima vitae |spiritus et quantum sat erit tua dicere facta...
At 08:50 PM 3/16/2009, sus...@aol.com wrote:
Thank you all ! Â I enjoy reading this banter more than you could imagine!
> Similarly, Vergil’s “heu magnum alterius frustra spectabis
aceruum /
> concussaque famem in siluis solabere quercu.†(Geo. 1.158-9) must
> concussaque famem in siluis solabere quercu.†(Geo. 1.158-9) must
> reflect a very real sentiment felt during the civil wars by Italians
> with hungry eyes on Antony and Cleopatra's Egyptian grain. Contrast
> Griffin (1981) 32 (“gently humorous†) and Jenkins (1999) 340
(“It
> sounds a bit gloomy, but farmers do grumble... the picture [is] quaint
> and bantering... the ‘heu’ ... is humorously grave†).
>
> Finally, there is deadly serious intent to G.1.41-2 “ignarosque uiae
>
> Finally, there is deadly serious intent to G.1.41-2 “ignarosque uiae
> mecum miseratus agrestis / ingredere et uotis iam nunc adsuesce
> uocari†- the 'agrestis' did not know the Via until they uprooted
by
> the land confiscations (cf. Ecl. 9.1 for the import of the 'Via').
>
> On 14 Mar, 23:01, "John B. Van Sickle" < jvsic...@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
> wrote:
> > At 05:52 PM 3/14/2009, falmouth wrote:>Italians, should be driven from
> > their fields and their
> > >hearthstones, like people conquered in war.
>
> > cf. Meliboeus in ecl. 1, nos patriae fines et dulcia linquimus arva etc..
> > impius haec tam culta novalia miles habebit | barbarus has segestes.
> > colonies composed of hirelings settled there by the rulers to be in
> > readiness for whatever>purpose they might be wanted. [13] Octavian
> >=2
0explained to the cities
>
> > with aid of Tityrus, deus nobis haec otia fecit ..- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
falmouth
Mar 21, 2009, 6:54:26 AM3/21/09
to Mantovano
Picking up again Geo. 2.146-8
hinc albi, Clitumne, greges et maxima, taurus,
uictima, saepe tuo perfusi flumine sacro,
Romanos ad templa deum duxere triumphos.
Prop. 2.15.43-6 is very revealing about the ambivalence with which
some contemporaries must have viewed Octavian's triple triumph (and,
indeed, some of Julius Caesar's)
non ferrum crudele neque esset bellica navis,
nec nostra Actiacum verteret ossa mare,
nec totiens propriis circum oppugnata triumphis 45
lassa foret crinis solere Roma suos.
What a potent phrase "propriis... triumphis"! This from a poet of
Maecenas' circle, presumably composed very close in time to Octavian's
triple triumph.
While Octavian had probably not yet celebrated his triple triumph by
the time of publication of Georgics, he was voted a triumph for Actium
almost immediately thereafter (i.e. before publication of the
Georgics). I'm not sure when he had been voted a triumph for his
Illyrian campaign. The point is talking about "Romanos... triumphos"
is potentially a political danger area at the time.
On 17 Mar, 02:34, "John B. Van Sickle" <jvsic...@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
wrote:
> > <<mailto:jvsic...@brooklyn.cuny.edu>jvsic...@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
hinc albi, Clitumne, greges et maxima, taurus,
uictima, saepe tuo perfusi flumine sacro,
Romanos ad templa deum duxere triumphos.
some contemporaries must have viewed Octavian's triple triumph (and,
indeed, some of Julius Caesar's)
non ferrum crudele neque esset bellica navis,
nec nostra Actiacum verteret ossa mare,
nec totiens propriis circum oppugnata triumphis 45
lassa foret crinis solere Roma suos.
What a potent phrase "propriis... triumphis"! This from a poet of
Maecenas' circle, presumably composed very close in time to Octavian's
triple triumph.
While Octavian had probably not yet celebrated his triple triumph by
the time of publication of Georgics, he was voted a triumph for Actium
almost immediately thereafter (i.e. before publication of the
Georgics). I'm not sure when he had been voted a triumph for his
Illyrian campaign. The point is talking about "Romanos... triumphos"
is potentially a political danger area at the time.
On 17 Mar, 02:34, "John B. Van Sickle" <jvsic...@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
wrote:
> worth perhaps recalling that Octavian via coinage
> took pains to identify himself with Jupiter in the duumviral period....
> cf. Iovis omnia plena...magnum Iovis
> incrementum...aspice venturo laetentur ut omnia
> saeclo...o mihi tum longae maneat pars ultima
> vitae |spiritus et quantum sat erit tua dicere facta...
>
> took pains to identify himself with Jupiter in the duumviral period....
> cf. Iovis omnia plena...magnum Iovis
> incrementum...aspice venturo laetentur ut omnia
> saeclo...o mihi tum longae maneat pars ultima
> vitae |spiritus et quantum sat erit tua dicere facta...
>
> > > wrote:
> > > > At 05:52 PM 3/14/2009, falmouth wrote:>Italians, should be driven from
> > > > their fields and their
> > > > >hearthstones, like people conquered in war.
>
> > > > cf. Meliboeus in ecl. 1, nos patriae fines et dulcia linquimus arva etc..
> > > > impius haec tam culta novalia miles habebit | barbarus has segestes.
> > > > colonies composed of hirelings settled there by the rulers to be in
> > > > readiness for whatever>purpose they might be wanted. [13] Octavian
> > > >=2
> >0explained to the cities
>
> > > > with aid of Tityrus, deus nobis haec otia fecit ..- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> >----------
> > > > At 05:52 PM 3/14/2009, falmouth wrote:>Italians, should be driven from
> > > > their fields and their
> > > > >hearthstones, like people conquered in war.
>
> > > > cf. Meliboeus in ecl. 1, nos patriae fines et dulcia linquimus arva etc..
> > > > impius haec tam culta novalia miles habebit | barbarus has segestes.
> > > > colonies composed of hirelings settled there by the rulers to be in
> > > > readiness for whatever>purpose they might be wanted. [13] Octavian
> > > >=2
> >0explained to the cities
>
> > > > with aid of Tityrus, deus nobis haec otia fecit ..- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> >Live traffic, local info, maps, directions and
> >more with the NEW MapQuest Toolbar.
> ><http://www.mapquest.com/toolbar?ncid=emlwemqmq00000003>Get it now!- Hide quoted text -
> >more with the NEW MapQuest Toolbar.
au...@gellius.demon.co.uk
Mar 21, 2009, 7:40:10 AM3/21/09
to mant...@googlegroups.com, au...@gellius.demon.co.uk
Indeed, Propertius took a very long time to see which was the better cause, not surprising after Perusia. but of course he is no more evidence for Vergil's or Horace's attitude than they are for his, And of course his heart lay with the rival dynast, not with the Republic.
> > >Thank you all ! Â I enjoy reading this banter more than you could imag=
> > > > how pleasant the one, how galling the other. But in context it won't =
> tabis aceruum /
> > > > concussaque famem in siluis solabere quercu.†(Geo. 1.158-9) =
> ) 340 (“It
> > > > sounds a bit gloomy, but farmers do grumble... the picture [is] quain=
> t
> > > > and bantering... the ‘heu’ ... is humorously graveâ=
> € ).
> >
> > > > Finally, there is deadly serious intent to G.1.41-2 “ignarosq=
> etc..
> > > > > impius haec tam culta novalia miles habebit | barbarus has segestes=
> ..
> ine!
> >
> > >All I can say is "Deus Ex Machina! "
> >
> > >Regards, Susanna
> >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <au...@gellius.demon.co.uk>
> > >To: mant...@googlegroups.com
> > >Sent: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 7:18 am
> > >Subject: VIRGIL: Re: 'Bis, bis' bis
> >
> > >Fair enough, but the gods aren't supposed to love the human race and
> > >therefore cannot be supposed to be under an obligation to make things ea=
> >
> > >All I can say is "Deus Ex Machina! "
> >
> > >Regards, Susanna
> >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <au...@gellius.demon.co.uk>
> > >To: mant...@googlegroups.com
> > >Sent: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 7:18 am
> > >Subject: VIRGIL: Re: 'Bis, bis' bis
> >
> > >Fair enough, but the gods aren't supposed to love the human race and
> sy
> > >for them. Romans of course did expect the gods to see them right if they
> > >gave them their due, but that was no comfort after recent events.
> >
> > >Leofranc Holford-Strevens
> > >67 St Bernard's Road
> > >Oxford
> > >usque adeone
> > >OX2 6EJ scire MEVM nihil est=
> > >for them. Romans of course did expect the gods to see them right if they
> > >gave them their due, but that was no comfort after recent events.
> >
> > >Leofranc Holford-Strevens
> > >67 St Bernard's Road
> > >Oxford
> > >usque adeone
> be
> > > > the
> > > > dynasts' fau;t, but your own for not weeding the soil properly.
> >
> > > > Leofranc Holford-Strevens
> > > > 67 St Bernard's Road
> > > > Oxford
> > > > usque adeone
> > > > OX2 6EJ scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat
> > > > alter?
> >
> > > > tel. +44 (0) 1865 552808 (home)/353865 (work) fax +44 (0) 1865 512237
> >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "falmouth"
> > > <<mailto:adrianj...@googlemail.com>adrianj...@googlemail.com>
> > > > To: "Mantovano"
> > > <<mailto:mant...@googlegroups.com>mant...@googlegroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 8:19 AM
> > > > Subject: VIRGIL: Re: 'Bis, bis' bis
> >
> > > > There is, I think, something akin to very dark irony going on when
> > > > prai
> > >sing the marvellous fertility of Italy at a time when the people
> > > > were starving (or at least famine was a recent memory).
> >
> > > > Similarly, Vergil’s “heu magnum alterius frustra spec=
> > > > the
> > > > dynasts' fau;t, but your own for not weeding the soil properly.
> >
> > > > Leofranc Holford-Strevens
> > > > 67 St Bernard's Road
> > > > Oxford
> > > > usque adeone
> > > > OX2 6EJ scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat
> > > > alter?
> >
> > > > tel. +44 (0) 1865 552808 (home)/353865 (work) fax +44 (0) 1865 512237
> >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "falmouth"
> > > <<mailto:adrianj...@googlemail.com>adrianj...@googlemail.com>
> > > > To: "Mantovano"
> > > <<mailto:mant...@googlegroups.com>mant...@googlegroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 8:19 AM
> > > > Subject: VIRGIL: Re: 'Bis, bis' bis
> >
> > > > There is, I think, something akin to very dark irony going on when
> > > > prai
> > >sing the marvellous fertility of Italy at a time when the people
> > > > were starving (or at least famine was a recent memory).
> >
> tabis aceruum /
> > > > concussaque famem in siluis solabere quercu.†(Geo. 1.158-9) =
> must
> > > > reflect a very real sentiment felt during the civil wars by Italians
> > > > with hungry eyes on Antony and Cleopatra's Egyptian grain. Contrast
> > > > Griffin (1981) 32 (“gently humorous†) and Jenkins (1999=
> > > > reflect a very real sentiment felt during the civil wars by Italians
> > > > with hungry eyes on Antony and Cleopatra's Egyptian grain. Contrast
> ) 340 (“It
> > > > sounds a bit gloomy, but farmers do grumble... the picture [is] quain=
> t
> > > > and bantering... the ‘heu’ ... is humorously graveâ=
> € ).
> >
> > > > Finally, there is deadly serious intent to G.1.41-2 “ignarosq=
> ue uiae
> > > > mecum miseratus agrestis / ingredere et uotis iam nunc adsuesce
> > > > uocari†- the 'agrestis' did not know the Via until they upro=
> > > > mecum miseratus agrestis / ingredere et uotis iam nunc adsuesce
> oted by
> > > > the land confiscations (cf. Ecl. 9.1 for the import of the 'Via').
> >
> > > > On 14 Mar, 23:01, "John B. Van Sickle"
> > > <<mailto:jvsic...@brooklyn.cuny.edu>jvsic...@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > At 05:52 PM 3/14/2009, falmouth wrote:>Italians, should be driven f=
> > > > the land confiscations (cf. Ecl. 9.1 for the import of the 'Via').
> >
> > > > On 14 Mar, 23:01, "John B. Van Sickle"
> > > <<mailto:jvsic...@brooklyn.cuny.edu>jvsic...@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
> > > > wrote:
> rom
> > > > > their fields and their
> > > > > >hearthstones, like people conquered in war.
> >
> > > > > cf. Meliboeus in ecl. 1, nos patriae fines et dulcia linquimus arva=
> > > > > their fields and their
> > > > > >hearthstones, like people conquered in war.
> >
> etc..
> > > > > impius haec tam culta novalia miles habebit | barbarus has segestes=
> ..
> > > > > colonies composed of hirelings settled there by the rulers to be in
> > > > > readiness for whatever>purpose they might be wanted. [13] Octavian
> > > > >=2
> > >0explained to the cities
> >
> > > > > with aid of Tityrus, deus nobis haec otia fecit ..- Hide quoted tex=
> > > > > readiness for whatever>purpose they might be wanted. [13] Octavian
> > > > >=2
> > >0explained to the cities
> >
> t -
> >
> > > > - Show quoted text -
> >
> > >----------
> > >Live traffic, local info, maps, directions and
> > >more with the NEW MapQuest Toolbar.
> > ><http://www.mapquest.com/toolbar?ncid=emlwemqmq00000003>Get it now!- H=
> >
> > > > - Show quoted text -
> >
> > >----------
> > >Live traffic, local info, maps, directions and
> > >more with the NEW MapQuest Toolbar.
falmouth
Mar 22, 2009, 10:26:07 AM3/22/09
to Mantovano
The reference to the Clitumnus at Geo. 2.146 may be more than
conventional (white bulls associated with the Clitumnus).
Hispellum was colonized by veterans (Pliny calls it Colonia Julia
Hispelli) before the siege of Perusia and subsequently acquired a set
of massive walls and huge gateways (Propertius' family seems to have
lost land to the colonists of Hispellum). Hispellum took over the
shrine of Clitumnus (Pliny Letters 8.8 refers to Augustus having given
it to the citizens of Hispellum). Hispellum is only about 30km from
Perusia and the shrine of Clitumnus is a further 20-odd km away. In
say, 30BC it would have been, query, a recent reminder of the
'Romanisation' of Umbria, the conflict at Perusia and a conspicuously
newly fortified city among ancient ones like Perusia?
cf.
adde tot egregias urbes operumque laborem, 155
tot congesta manu praeruptis oppida saxis
fluminaque antiquos subter labentia muros.
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
conventional (white bulls associated with the Clitumnus).
Hispellum was colonized by veterans (Pliny calls it Colonia Julia
Hispelli) before the siege of Perusia and subsequently acquired a set
of massive walls and huge gateways (Propertius' family seems to have
lost land to the colonists of Hispellum). Hispellum took over the
shrine of Clitumnus (Pliny Letters 8.8 refers to Augustus having given
it to the citizens of Hispellum). Hispellum is only about 30km from
Perusia and the shrine of Clitumnus is a further 20-odd km away. In
say, 30BC it would have been, query, a recent reminder of the
'Romanisation' of Umbria, the conflict at Perusia and a conspicuously
newly fortified city among ancient ones like Perusia?
cf.
adde tot egregias urbes operumque laborem, 155
tot congesta manu praeruptis oppida saxis
fluminaque antiquos subter labentia muros.
Martin50
Mar 23, 2009, 3:59:00 PM3/23/09
to Mantovano
The points that you've made and that I'd like to take up, on the way
to my rather daring (as I hope you'll one day agree) overall
interpretation of Geo.II, are John's remark about polarities, Adrian's
about the militarisation of the Italian landscape and Leofranc's about
the structural debt to Lucretius - along with your many references to
the general disruption of Italian peasant life in the Triumviral years
and to the 'no easy way' theology. V is confronting us with opposites
and we have to ask how total or how reconcilable these opposites are,
especially gold vs. iron and V himself vs. Lucretius. There is also
the oppostion of the heavens (Book I) and the earth (Book II) and of
heat and cold, which by responding to celestial forces define
terrestrial regions, and of homeland vs. strange land, apparent in the
Laudes themselves.
The result of the divided earth is that different lands produce
different things - the theme of the build-up to the Laudes - which
makes peace for mutual exchange seem like a desirable ideal, but also
that people live and presumably think very differently, which always
makes war into a realistic possibility. V's particular fear is that
the hot and cold peoples - the Goths and Saracens who were indeed to
bring the Roman world to an end, as Mynors says - would unite against
the temperate middle regions. Bury, in Appendix 17 to Vol.I of his
edition of Gibbon's histories (I wish to be considered for a prize for
obscure but thoroughly respectable references), gives the impression
that the leaders of the Goths and Saracens were over a long period of
time well aware of this policy option.
Temperate people like to think of their home as a secure place, where
their needs are provided for: that is how the Italian V presents
Italy, the middle country of the middle region of the hemisphere.
This status is in a way geographical and objective, in a way political
and temporary, in a way fictional. The contrast between 'the bulls
breathing fire' and the 'twice pregnant flocks' is not a contrast
between realities about different geographical regions but between
fantasies about the strange lands where one goes to seek adventure and
the homeland where there is peace and plenty. V is already asking us
to note the difference between Lucretius, the poet of the real, and
himself, the poet who writes with the utmost realism but recognises
the real importance of what is imagined and fantastic.
There must be World War II propaganda films - I can't give a reference
here! - which one minute show Britain's peaceful sheep grazing in a
field and then pretend to a celestial perspective showing the beloved
island's naval bases bristling with weapons. V achieves something
like this shift of perspective from the antiqui muri, which are seen
close up, probably covered with moss and few signs of recent repair,
to the vision of two seas and of warlike capabilities with Caesar's
guiding presence increasingly suggested. I think he just about holds
the militaristic imagery to the point where the impression made is of
defensive readiness rather than of iron-fisted imperial outreach.
Harrison, if I understood his words, thinks of the passage as face-
value at every point and as claiming that the Golden and Iron Ages
have somehow been united in Caesarian Italy. The first half of this
claim is plainly untenable in view of the 'bis, bis' exaggeration. In
any event, the Golden Age has not returned, then or now, and V returns
to the contrast of the two ages in the final passage of the book, not
for one minute suggesting that the contrast is wiped out or no longer
matters.
Indeed the stress on the Italian character of Saturn reminds us that
the Romans may think that they are the dominant race but really they
are subject not only to a father who believes in extremely tough love
but to a foreign king, risen from a Cretan cave to conduct his great
experiment.
- Martin Hughes
to my rather daring (as I hope you'll one day agree) overall
interpretation of Geo.II, are John's remark about polarities, Adrian's
about the militarisation of the Italian landscape and Leofranc's about
the structural debt to Lucretius - along with your many references to
the general disruption of Italian peasant life in the Triumviral years
and to the 'no easy way' theology. V is confronting us with opposites
and we have to ask how total or how reconcilable these opposites are,
especially gold vs. iron and V himself vs. Lucretius. There is also
the oppostion of the heavens (Book I) and the earth (Book II) and of
heat and cold, which by responding to celestial forces define
terrestrial regions, and of homeland vs. strange land, apparent in the
Laudes themselves.
The result of the divided earth is that different lands produce
different things - the theme of the build-up to the Laudes - which
makes peace for mutual exchange seem like a desirable ideal, but also
that people live and presumably think very differently, which always
makes war into a realistic possibility. V's particular fear is that
the hot and cold peoples - the Goths and Saracens who were indeed to
bring the Roman world to an end, as Mynors says - would unite against
the temperate middle regions. Bury, in Appendix 17 to Vol.I of his
edition of Gibbon's histories (I wish to be considered for a prize for
obscure but thoroughly respectable references), gives the impression
that the leaders of the Goths and Saracens were over a long period of
time well aware of this policy option.
Temperate people like to think of their home as a secure place, where
their needs are provided for: that is how the Italian V presents
Italy, the middle country of the middle region of the hemisphere.
This status is in a way geographical and objective, in a way political
and temporary, in a way fictional. The contrast between 'the bulls
breathing fire' and the 'twice pregnant flocks' is not a contrast
between realities about different geographical regions but between
fantasies about the strange lands where one goes to seek adventure and
the homeland where there is peace and plenty. V is already asking us
to note the difference between Lucretius, the poet of the real, and
himself, the poet who writes with the utmost realism but recognises
the real importance of what is imagined and fantastic.
There must be World War II propaganda films - I can't give a reference
here! - which one minute show Britain's peaceful sheep grazing in a
field and then pretend to a celestial perspective showing the beloved
island's naval bases bristling with weapons. V achieves something
like this shift of perspective from the antiqui muri, which are seen
close up, probably covered with moss and few signs of recent repair,
to the vision of two seas and of warlike capabilities with Caesar's
guiding presence increasingly suggested. I think he just about holds
the militaristic imagery to the point where the impression made is of
defensive readiness rather than of iron-fisted imperial outreach.
Harrison, if I understood his words, thinks of the passage as face-
value at every point and as claiming that the Golden and Iron Ages
have somehow been united in Caesarian Italy. The first half of this
claim is plainly untenable in view of the 'bis, bis' exaggeration. In
any event, the Golden Age has not returned, then or now, and V returns
to the contrast of the two ages in the final passage of the book, not
for one minute suggesting that the contrast is wiped out or no longer
matters.
Indeed the stress on the Italian character of Saturn reminds us that
the Romans may think that they are the dominant race but really they
are subject not only to a father who believes in extremely tough love
but to a foreign king, risen from a Cretan cave to conduct his great
experiment.
- Martin Hughes
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