ships & stars

[David Wilson-Okamura]

1. I was just reading book 9 again, as I do every fall about this time, and when I got to the part about ships turning into nymphs, I remembered something I felt last year too: that it feels hokey. I don't want to believe this -- I would prefer to love everything that Virgil does -- but it bothered Castelvetro too. 

Is there anyone who enjoys this episode and would like to say a few words in its defense? (I'm not giving a paper here, much less trying to publish an article, so please don't ask me to define "hokey.")

2. Something I do love, but don't feel that I properly understand, is stars. There are lots of them in the Aeneid (see concordance searches below), licked by waves, touched by fires, beaten by shouts. Sometimes they mark hours. In Anchises' speech about the world soul, I imagine they have something to do with Plato's Phaedrus. But mostly they seem like the stars in Sonnet 15:

When I consider euery thing that growes 

Holds in perfection but a little moment. 

That this huge stage presenteth nought but showes 

Whereon the Stars in secret influence comment,

...

Then the conceit of this inconstant stay, 

Sets you most rich in youth before my sight...

Are Virgil's stars an audience? witnesses? or a jury?

Result of search for "stell*":

A  2.694   stella facem ducens multa cum luce cucurrit.
A  3.521   Iamque rubescebat stellis Aurora fugatis,
A  4.261   conspicit; atque illi stellatus iaspide fulua
A  4.482   axem humero torquet stellis ardentibus aptum:
A  5. 42   Postera cum primo stellas Oriente fugarat
A  5.440   aut montana sedet circum castella sub armis,
A  6.797   axem umero torquet stellis ardentibus aptum.
A  7.210   aurea nunc solio stellantis regia caeli
A  9. 21   palantisque polo stellas. Sequor omina tanta,
A 11.202   inuertit caelum stellis ardentibus aptum.

Result of search for "astr* not castr*":

A  1.287   imperium oceano, famam qui terminet astris,--
A  2.460   Turrim in praecipiti stantem summisque sub astra
A  3.158   idem uenturos tollemus in astra nepotes,
A  3.567   ter spumam elisam et rorantia uidimus astra.
A  3.585   Nam neque erant astrorum ignes, nec lucidus aethra
A  4.352   nox operit terras, quotiens astra ignea surgunt,
A  5. 25   si modo rite memor seruata remetior astra.'
A  5.517   Decidit exanimis, uitamque reliquit in astris
A  5.759   Tum uicina astris, Erycino in uertice sedes
A  5.838   cum leuis aetheriis delapsus Somnus ab astris
A  5.853   nusquam amittebat, oculosque sub astra tenebat.
A  6.725   lucentemque globum Lunae Titaniaque astra
A  7. 99   nomen in astra ferant quorumque a stirpe nepotes
A  7.272   nomen in astra ferant. Hunc illum poscere fata
A  8. 59   Surge age, nate dea, primisque cadentibus astris
A  8.590   quem Uenus ante alios astrorum diligit ignis,
A  9. 76   taeda et commixtam Uolcanus ad astra fauillam.
A  9.405   astrorum decus et nemorum Latonia custos
A  9.641   'Macte noua uirtute, puer: sic itur ad astra,
A 12.893   astra sequi clausumue caua te condere terra.'

-- 

Dr. David Wilson-Okamura        http://virgil.org          da...@virgil.org

Professor of English                 Virgil reception, discussion, documents, &c

East Carolina University           Sparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet

[Mark Kiley]

I’m not sure how I ended up on this list, but I am a fan of Virgil (though no expert).  Perhaps one needn’t choose among the options listed for stell-, astr-, i.e. audience, witness, jury.  If one gravitates toward their near-cousin sidus, thence to considero, we have an oblique reminder of the poet at his craft, engrossed in “mature reflection”.

(Ov. M. 3.95; 12.105).  Is that move kosher?

 

Mark Kiley

Associate Professor

Theology & Religious Studies

St. John’s University

Staten Island, NY 10301

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[anthony dimatteo]

David -

A beautiful question:  "Are Virgil's stars an audience? witnesses? or a jury?"   I believe they are a silent jury comparable to the mountain in Knossos that still looms over the throne of the Cretan kings and that orients the architecture of the entire site.   The sovereign must serve, bow down to or be in line with the summit of things, with the implacable laws of nature and the world beyond.  This is the lofty realm of the highest god, the nearer breath of deity.  This cosmic, indifferent  perspective is beautifully expressed in Bk 9.312-313:  aurae / omnia discerpunt et nubibus inrita donant.  

Speaking of Bk 9, I believe in reporting what he calls the old tale of the ships-to-nymphs miracle, Virgil is also paying homage to the mountain's perspective on human affairs.   Cybele says of the timber used to make the ships:  "prosit nostris in montibus ortas"  (9.92) - let it be a boon to them that they grew upon our mountains 
 

---

From: da...@virgil.org
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 15:32:26 -0400

Subject: VIRGIL: ships & stars

To: mant...@googlegroups.com

[Leofranc Holford-strevens]

Castelvetro was the man who inflicted the absurd unities on classicizing drama; what have rationalists to do with poetry? Is your difficulty with the intrusion of fantastic events into a narrative of war? The same objection might be made to the horse Xanthos' addressing Achilles the end of Iliad 19, which I find a very moving passage. (I fear I simply don't understand the word 'hokey'; is it derived from hocus-pocus? I know only the old song about the hokey-cokey, which affords insufficient information for me to dance it.)

As to the stars, in Vergil they seem often to be not so much the shining bodies of heaven as heaven itself (the home of the gods) or the heavens (the sky as opposed to the earth, and like the sky beginning where human reach ends). But although present, are they sufficiently engaged by terrestrial events to count even as an audience? Even at A. 2. 694 the star (or lightning-bolt) is acting under Jupiter's orders, not of its own initiative; and elsewhere they _are_ rather than _do_.

Leofranc Holford-Strevens
67 St Bernard's Road
Oxford
OX2 6EJ

                                                         usque adeone
scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter?

---

[David Wilson-Okamura]

On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 4:41 PM, Leofranc Holford-strevens <au...@gellius.demon.co.uk> wrote:

Castelvetro was the man who inflicted the absurd unities on classicizing drama; what have rationalists to do with poetry? Is your difficulty with the intrusion of fantastic events into a narrative of war? The same objection might be made to the horse Xanthos' addressing Achilles the end of Iliad 19, which I find a very moving passage. (I fear I simply don't understand the word 'hokey'; is it derived from hocus-pocus? I know only the old song about the hokey-cokey, which affords insufficient information for me to dance it.)

I, too, like the weeping horses; and Castelvetro was no friend of Virgil. But Virgil is a rationalist himself. There are wonders, but also cautions and second glances. In book 6, for example, it seems that you go down to the underworld by entering a cave; in book 7, by incubation (inhaling vapors and having a dream). In book 3, the monster Scylla turns out to be a seacoast, Scyllaceum, where shipwrecks are prevalent. I say nothing of Virgil's probing, and increasingly pointed, questions about the gods.

What's hokey, I think, about the ships in book 9 is that the transformation seems abrupt, possibly even -- I tremble to say this -- unearned. An arrow that turns into a comet is marvelous, but not incongruous. Ships turning into sea-nymphs seems arbitrary, playful -- delightful in a different context, not when Turnus is raging. You could argue that playfulness is an effect or symptom of poetic power; cf. the elderly Matisse making paper dolls with scissors and construction paper, or Shakespeare making tragedy with five nevers in King Lear. I see this in book 6, when Homer's Ajax becomes Dido: I would never in a hundred years have made that imaginative leap, but once she has landed, the rightness of it is evident. 

I don't, in my present state of ignorance, feel this same conviction of rightness about the ships in book 9, but I do like Anthony DiMatteo's suggestion about the perspective of mountains. Cf. the end of book 2, where Aeneas climbs up out of Troy's smokey haze, and the beginning of book 6, where he climbs up to Apollo's shrine. 

[falmouth]

Ships into nymphs - the episode does not seem to have been an afterthought of Vergil's - the life-story of Aeneas' ships is a running theme: all the below passsages (and others) are somehow connected.

 fronte sub aduersa scopulis pendentibus antrum;

intus aquae dulces uiuoque sedilia saxo,

Nympharum domus. hic fessas non uincula nauis

ulla tenent, unco non alligat ancora morsu.

Aen. 1.166-9

aspice bis senos laetantis agmine cycnos,

aetheria quos lapsa plaga Iouis ales aperto

turbabat caelo; nunc terras ordine longo 395

aut capere aut captas iam despectare uidentur:

ut reduces illi ludunt stridentibus alis

et coetu cinxere polum cantusque dedere,

haud aliter puppesque tuae pubesque tuorum

aut portum tenet aut pleno subit ostia uelo. 400

perge modo et, qua te ducit uia, derige gressum.'

Aen. 1.394-401

                         et desertas quaerere terras

auguriis agimur diuum, classemque sub ipsa 5

Antandro et Phrygiae molimur montibus Idae,

Aen. 3.4-6

Sed non idcirco flamma atque incendia uiris 680

indomitas posuere; udo sub robore uiuit

stuppa uomens tardum fumum, lentusque carinas

est uapor et toto descendit corpore pestis,

nec uires heroum infusaque flumina prosunt.

tum pius Aeneas umeris abscindere uestem 685

auxilioque uocare deos et tendere palmas:

'Iuppiter omnipotens, si nondum exosus ad unum

Troianos, si quid pietas antiqua labores

respicit humanos, da flammam euadere classi

nunc, pater, et tenuis Teucrum res eripe leto. 690

uel tu, quod superest, infesto fulmine morti,

si mereor, demitte tuaque hic obrue dextra.'

uix haec ediderat cum effusis imbribus atra

tempestas sine more furit tonitruque tremescunt

ardua terrarum et campi; ruit aethere toto 695

turbidus imber aqua densisque nigerrimus Austris,

implenturque super puppes, semusta madescunt

robora, restinctus donec uapor omnis et omnes

quattuor amissis seruatae a peste carinae.

Aen. 5.680-699

'ne trepidate meas, Teucri, defendere nauis

neue armate manus; maria ante exurere Turno 115

quam sacras dabitur pinus. uos ite solutae,

ite deae pelagi; genetrix iubet.' et sua quaeque

continuo puppes abrumpunt uincula ripis

delphinumque modo demersis aequora rostris

ima petunt. hinc uirgineae (mirabile monstrum) 120

reddunt se totidem facies pontoque feruntur.

Aen. 9.114-121

nos sumus, Idaeae sacro de uertice pinus, 230

nunc pelagi nymphae, classis tua. perfidus ut nos

praecipitis ferro Rutulus flammaque premebat,

rupimus inuitae tua uincula teque per aequor

quaerimus. hanc genetrix faciem miserata refecit

et dedit esse deas aeuumque agitare sub undis.

Aen. 10.230-5

Fantham, E. (1990) 'Nymphas ... e navibus esse: Decorum and Poetic Fiction in Aen. 9.77-122 and 10.215-59" CP 85 No. 2 pp. 102-119 is well worth a read even if it is only really a jumping off point. 

I can't help also feeling that there is some connection with the ritual described at Sil. Pun. 17.1-45

Hostis ut Ausoniis decederet aduena terris, 17.1

fatidicae fuerant oracula prisca Sibyllae

caelicolum Phrygia genetricem sede petitam

Laomedonteae sacrandam moenibus urbis:

aduectum exciperet numen, qui lectus ab omni 5

concilio patrum praesentis degeret aeui

optimus. en nomen melius maiusque triumphis!

iamque petita aderat Latia portante Cybebe

puppe, atque ante omnis magno cedente senatu

obuius accitis properabat Scipio sacris, 10

qui, genitus patruo ductoris ad Africa bella

tunc lecti, multa fulgebat imagine auorum.

isque ubi longinquo uenientia numina ponto

accepit supplex palmis Tuscique sonora

Thybridis adduxit sublimis ad ostia puppim, 15

femineae tum deinde manus subiere, per amnem

quae traherent celsam religatis funibus alnum.

circum arguta cauis tinnitibus aera, simulque

certabant rauco resonantia tympana pulsu,

semiuirique chori, gemino qui Dindyma monte 20

casta colunt, qui Dictaeo bacchantur in antro,

quique Idaea iuga et lucos nouere silentis.

hos inter fremitus ac laeto uota tumultu

substitit adductis renuens procedere uinclis

sacra ratis subitisque uadis immobilis haesit. 25

tum puppe a media magno clamore sacerdos:

'Parcite pollutis contingere uincula palmis

et procul hinc, moneo, procul hinc, quaecumque profanae,

ferte gradus nec uos casto miscete labori,

dum satis est monuisse deae. quod si qua pudica 30

mente ualet, si qua inlaesi sibi corporis astat

conscia, uel sola subeat pia munera dextra.'

  Hic, prisca ducens Clausorum ab origine nomen,

Claudia, non aequa<e> populi male credita fama<e>,

in puppim uersis palmisque oculisque profatur: 35

'Caelicolum genetrix, numen, quod numina nobis

cuncta creas, cuius proles terramque fretumque

sideraque et manis regnorum sorte gubernant,

si nostrum nullo uiolatum est crimine corpus,

testis, diua, ueni et facili me absolue carina.' 40

tum secura capit funem, fremitusque leonum

audiri uisus subito, et grauiora per auris

nulla pulsa manu sonuerunt tympana diuae.

fertur prona ratis (uentos impellere credas)

contraque aduersas ducentem praeuenit undas. 45

extemplo maior cunctis spes pectora mulcet

finem armis tandem finemque uenire periclis.

[falmouth]

Stars - 

Definitely a topic worth more exploring - NB also stars in the Georgics and the particular/peculiar? popularity of Aratus' Phaenomena at Rome both before and after Vergil.

PS - thanks to David for rekindling discussion here - it's been a bit quiet for a while!

[falmouth]

Some instances of 'sidus' which is V.'s most popular term for 'star' in the A.

Verg.A.1.103 Aquilone procella uelum aduersa ferit, fluctusque ad sidera tollit. franguntur remi, tum prora auertit et undis dat

Verg.A.1.259 urbem et promissa Lauini moenia, sublimemque feres ad sidera caeli magnanimum Aenean; neque me sententia uertit. hic

Verg.A.1.608 current, dum montibus umbrae lustrabunt conuexa, polus dum sidera pascet, semper honos nomenque tuum laudesque manebunt,

Verg.A.1.93 soluuntur frigore membra; ingemit et duplicis tendens ad sidera palmas talia uoce refert: 'o terque quaterque beati, quis

Verg.A.10.161 uarios, Pallasque sinistro adfixus lateri iam quaerit sidera, opacae noctis iter, iam quae passus terraque marique.

Verg.A.10.176 diuumque interpres Asilas, cui pecudum fibrae, caeli cui sidera parent et linguae uolucrum et praesagi fulminis ignes,

Verg.A.10.193 canentem molli pluma duxisse senectam linquentem terras et sidera uoce sequentem. filius aequalis comitatus classe cateruas

Verg.A.10.262 clipeum cum deinde sinistra extulit ardentem. clamorem ad sidera tollunt Dardanidae e muris, spes addita suscitat iras,

Verg.A.10.3 Olympi conciliumque uocat diuum pater atque hominum rex sideream in sedem, terras unde arduus omnis castraque Dardanidum

Verg.A.10.667 rerum ingratusque salutis et duplicis cum uoce manus ad sidera tendit: 'omnipotens genitor, tanton me crimine dignum

Verg.A.11.136 ferro sonat alta bipenni fraxinus, euertunt actas ad sidera pinus, robora nec cuneis et olentem scindere cedrum nec

Verg.A.11.37 foribus sese intulit altis ingentem gemitum tunsis ad sidera tollunt pectoribus, maestoque immugit regia luctu. ipse

Verg.A.11.833 sub umbras. tum uero immensus surgens ferit aurea clamor sidera: deiecta crudescit pugna Camilla; incurrunt densi simul

Verg.A.11.878 percussae pectora matres femineum clamorem ad caeli sidera tollunt. qui cursu portas primi inrupere patentis, hos

Verg.A.12.167 hastilia ferro. hinc pater Aeneas, Romanae stirpis origo, sidereo flagrans clipeo et caelestibus armis et iuxta Ascanius,

Verg.A.12.196 sic deinde Latinus suspiciens caelum, tenditque ad sidera dextram: 'haec eadem, Aenea, terram, mare, sidera, iuro

Verg.A.12.197 ad sidera dextram: 'haec eadem, Aenea, terram, mare, sidera, iuro Latonaeque genus duplex Ianumque bifrontem, uimque

Verg.A.12.451 atrum rapit agmen aperto. qualis ubi ad terras abrupto sidere nimbus it mare per medium (miseris, heu, praescia longe

Verg.A.12.795 Aenean scis ipsa et scire fateris deberi caelo fatisque ad sidera tolli. quid struis? aut qua spe gelidis in nubibus

Verg.A.2.153 instructus et arte Pelasga sustulit exutas uinclis ad sidera palmas: 'uos, aeterni ignes, et non uiolabile uestrum

Verg.A.2.222 sanie uittas atroque ueneno, clamores simul horrendos ad sidera tollit: qualis mugitus, fugit cum saucius aram taurus et

Verg.A.2.488 cauae plangoribus aedes femineis ululant; ferit aurea sidera clamor. tum pauidae tectis matres ingentibus errant

Verg.A.2.687 restinguere fontibus ignis. at pater Anchises oculos ad sidera laetus extulit et caelo palmas cum uoce tetendit:

Verg.A.2.9 et iam nox umida caelo praecipitat suadentque cadentia sidera somnos. sed si tantus amor casus cognoscere nostros et

Verg.A.3.204 incertos caeca caligine soles erramus pelago, totidem sine sidere noctes. quarto terra die primum se attollere tandem uisa,

Verg.A.3.243 ullam nec uulnera tergo accipiunt, celerique fuga sub sidera lapsae semesam praedam et uestigia foeda relinquunt. una

Verg.A.3.360 qui numina Phoebi, qui tripodas Clarii et laurus, qui sidera sentis et uolucrum linguas et praepetis omina pennae,

Verg.A.3.423 abruptum fluctus rursusque sub auras erigit alternos, et sidera uerberat unda. at Scyllam caecis cohibet spelunca

Verg.A.3.515 et omnis explorat uentos atque auribus aëra captat; sidera cuncta notat tacito labentia caelo, Arcturum pluuiasque

Verg.A.3.574 piceo et candente fauilla, attollitque globos flammarum et sidera lambit; interdum scopulos auulsaque uiscera montis erigit

Verg.A.3.586 uidemus. nam neque erant astrorum ignes nec lucidus aethra siderea polus, obscuro sed nubila caelo, et lunam in nimbo nox

Verg.A.3.599 sese ad litora praeceps cum fletu precibusque tulit: 'per sidera testor, per superos atque hoc caeli spirabile lumen,

Verg.A.3.620 cruentis, intus opaca, ingens. ipse arduus, altaque pulsat sidera (di talem terris auertite pestem!) nec uisu facilis nec

Verg.A.4.309 tenet crudeli funere Dido? quin etiam hiberno moliri sidere classem et mediis properas Aquilonibus ire per altum,

Verg.A.4.322 Tyrii; te propter eundem exstinctus pudor et, qua sola sidera adibam, fama prior. cui me moribundam deseris hospes (hoc

Verg.A.4.489 duras immittere curas, sistere aquam fluuiis et uertere sidera retro, nocturnosque mouet Manis: mugire uidebis sub

Verg.A.4.520 in ueste recincta, testatur moritura deos et conscia fati sidera; tum, si quod non aequo foedere amantis curae numen habet

Verg.A.4.524 siluaeque et saeua quierant aequora, cum medio uoluuntur sidera lapsu, cum tacet omnis ager, pecudes pictaeque uolucres,

Verg.A.4.578 iterum paremus ouantes. adsis o placidusque iuues et sidera caelo dextra feras.' dixit uaginaque eripit ensem

Verg.A.4.81 lumenque obscura uicissim luna premit suadentque cadentia sidera somnos, sola domo maeret uacua stratisque relictis

Verg.A.5.126 summersum tunditur olim fluctibus, hiberni condunt ubi sidera Cauri; tranquillo silet immotaque attollitur unda campus

Verg.A.5.256 rapuit Iouis armiger uncis; longaeui palmas nequiquam ad sidera tendunt custodes, saeuitque canum latratus in auras. at

Verg.A.5.528 caelo ceu saepe refixa transcurrunt crinemque uolantia sidera ducunt. attonitis haesere animis superosque precati

Verg.A.5.628 aestas, cum freta, cum terras omnis, tot inhospita saxa sideraque emensae ferimur, dum per mare magnum Italiam sequimur

Verg.A.6.338 sese Palinurus agebat, qui Libyco nuper cursu, dum sidera seruat, exciderat puppi mediis effusus in undis. hunc ubi

Verg.A.6.458 ferroque extrema secutam? funeris heu tibi causa fui? per sidera iuro, per superos et si qua fides tellure sub ima est,

Verg.A.6.641 aether et lumine uestit purpureo, solemque suum, sua sidera norunt. pars in gramineis exercent membra palaestris,

Verg.A.6.795 et Garamantas et Indos proferet imperium; iacet extra sidera tellus, extra anni solisque uias, ubi caelifer Atlas axem

Verg.A.6.850 melius, caelique meatus describent radio et surgentia sidera dicent: tu regere imperio populos, Romane, memento (hae

Verg.A.7.767 explerit sanguine poenas turbatis distractus equis, ad sidera rursus aetheria et superas caeli uenisse sub auras,

Verg.A.8.141 si quicquam credimus, Atlas, idem Atlas generat caeli qui sidera tollit. sic genus amborum scindit se sanguine ab uno. his

Verg.A.9.16 secuit sub nubibus arcum. agnouit iuuenis duplicisque ad sidera palmas sustulit ac tali fugientem est uoce secutus: 'Iri,

Verg.A.9.239 portae quae proxima ponto. interrupti ignes aterque ad sidera fumus erigitur. si fortuna permittitis uti quaesitum

Verg.A.9.429 nihil iste nec ausus nec potuit; caelum hoc et conscia sidera testor; tantum infelicem nimium dilexit amicum.' talia

Verg.A.9.637 Teucri clamore sequuntur laetitiaque fremunt animosque ad sidera tollunt. Aetheria tum forte plaga crinitus Apollo

Verg.A.9.93 in montibus ortas.' filius huic contra, torquet qui sidera mundi: 'o genetrix, quo fata uocas? aut quid petis istis?

Verg.A.2.700 genitor se tollit ad auras adfaturque deos et sanctum sidus adorat. 'iam iam nulla mora est; sequor et qua ducitis

Verg.A.11.260 omnes, uel Priamo miseranda manus; scit triste Mineruae sidus et Euboicae cautes ultorque Caphereus. militia ex illa

Verg.A.8.681 tempora flammas laeta uomunt patriumque aperitur uertice sidus. parte alia uentis et dis Agrippa secundis arduus agmen

Verg.A.7.215 actos atra subegit hiems uestris succedere terris, nec sidus regione uiae litusue fefellit: consilio hanc omnes

On Tuesday, 7 October 2014 20:33:11 UTC+1, David Wilson-Okamura wrote:

[anthony dimatteo]

Meditating on the symbolic transit of  mountain pine to ships to sea nymphs in Bk 9 - it looks like a stenography at work - a code signaling Virgil's poetic and philosophical pursuit of the nature of matter-  the hyle/silva exploration Servius sees operative in the epic right from the start or head of the narrative proper with Aeneas's entrance into the wood outside Carthage.  

--

[Mark Kiley]

A request about a point of technology, if I may.  What search engine are you using to generate these helpful data about the preponderance of sidus in A.? 

I would very much like to know.

 Mark Kiley

--

[Neven Jovanović]

Hello Mark,

Perseus under PhiloLogic does something quite similar, combining word
/ author / work search criteria:

For sider*:
<http://perseus.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/showrest_?kwic.6.1.83596.0.55.LatinAugust2012>
And for sidus:
<http://perseus.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/showrest_?kwic.6.1.83736.0.3.LatinAugust2012>

Best,

Neven

Neven Jovanovic
Zagreb, Croatia

[David Wilson-Okamura]

And I'm using this: http://virgil.org/texts/

[Neven Jovanović]

... and here is a search in the Chicago Perseus for all three, showing
how the motif develops from book to book:

Bibliographic criteria: title=aeneid NOT english author=vergil (1 document(s))
Search criteria: sider.*|stell.*|astr.*|sidus.*
<http://perseus.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/showrest_?kwic.6.1.84188.0.84.LatinAugust2012>

Best,

Neven

Neven Jovanovic
Zagreb, Croatia

[Mark Kiley]

Thanks, Neven.

[Yvan Nadeau]

I hesitate to refer to two articles I wrote, which are, I think, germane. 

 

“Naulochus and Actium, the Fleets of Paris and Aeneas, and the Tree-felling of C. Iulius Caesar Erysichthon” in Carl DEROUX ed. Studies in Latin Literature and Roman History, Vol XV, pp. 219-239, Bruxelles 2010.

 

“Ennius, Annales 175 – 179 (Skutsch).  A footnote” in Latomus, 69(2010)309-312.

 

yn

 

Yvan NADEAU

3/13 Forrest Hill

EDINBURGH EH1 2QL

0131-225-8240

yvann...@btinternet.com

 

 

 

From: mant...@googlegroups.com [mailto:mant...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of falmouth
Sent: 08 October 2014 14:43
To: mant...@googlegroups.com
Cc: da...@virgil.org
Subject: VIRGIL: Re: ships & stars

 

Ships into nymphs - the episode does not seem to have been an afterthought of Vergil's - the life-story of Aeneas' ships is a running theme: all the below passsages (and others) are somehow connected.

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[falmouth]

I was using this - http://latin.packhum.org/concordance (online version of Packhard Humanities Institute) - free and quite a powerful search engine - can search for multiple words in vicinity of each other, for example. The only down side is that it does not have a morphological search - I.e. To find instances of 'sidus' one has to search both for 'sidus' and for 'sider' (to exclude e.g. 'considero' one can specify that 'sider' is a word beginning by searching for '#sider'.

[falmouth]

I should have said - the search by default searches all the PHI texts - you can confine it to particular texts eg for the Aeneid prefix the search with "[Verg:A]"

[falmouth]

'But Vergil is a rationalist himself' - I would not share that view, alhough I think there's a significant chunk of truth in it. For example, in the Georgics, one is constantly faced with situations where Vergil seems to be undermining the rationalist views of Lucretius by reintroducing mythic / divine elements contrary to Lucretius' polemic - this is very well documented in Monica Gale's book 'Vergil on the Nature of Things'. And albeit granted that Vergil probes the nature of the gods in the Aeneid, the gods of the Aeneid *are* prime movers of the dramatic situation not mere symbols - to take a alient example, any reading of the Aeneid which rationalises away the 'saevae Iunonis iram' detracts - for me - from the power of the poem (granted, the divine apparatus was in some ways a necessary inheritance from the epic tradition for the Aeneid: but not so for the Georgics). We, of course, know that Vergil had Epicurean affiliations but his poetry hardly demonstrates a thoroughgoing Epicureanism (rather the opposite...).  

On Tuesday, 7 October 2014 20:33:11 UTC+1, David Wilson-Okamura wrote:

[David Wilson-Okamura]

2014-10-08 9:42 GMT-04:00 falmouth <adria...@googlemail.com>:

Ships into nymphs - the episode does not seem to have been an afterthought of Vergil's - the life-story of Aeneas' ships is a running theme: all the below passsages (and others) are somehow connected.

Thank you, Adrian. That's very helpful.