Virgil/Ricardo/Rome/Britain
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Martin50
Sep 18, 2009, 12:36:30 PM9/18/09
to Mantovano
The economics of Georgics II involve acceptance of the absolute
advantage of exotic lands in producing certain goods alongside a
picture of Italy emphasising both near-miraculous all-round
productivity and an array of military institutions whose existence
expresses a significant surplus over subsistence production. This
element of the picture could be seen as presenting a country
menacingly bristling with weapons or one which has secured its own
peace and is ready to help secure that of others. Since the whole
tone of the passage suggests worldwide cooperation in material
production rather than plunder the second idea is the one that is
implied.
The ideology of the British Empire was to be built in part on
Ricardo's theory of comparative advantage, where it is best for all
the lands to specialise in some things that they can produce very
efficiently even if they can produce all sorts of things more cheaply
than all sorts of competitors. The British heartland was very good at
producing textiles and defence forces, so it was better for the
Indians to concentrate on producing opium and indigo while wearing
clothes produced in Manchester and letting British people play a lead
role in India's military systems - the arrangement which the Marxists
were controversially to blame for making the underdeveloped world
wallow in misery.
It's generally supposed that the law of comparative advantage was
unknown in the ancient world but perhaps V is getting at something
like it. V is not suggesting that Italy, for all its exceptional
productivity, should compete with Persia in the production of balm but
that Italy is well placed to provide security for many nations beside
itself. Many nations, though not the Persians, did indeed come to
think along these lines. We could then avoid thinking of the Laudes
Italiae either as ranting, war-mongering nationalism or as proto-
Marxist satire on imperialist swagger and boasting, neither of which
feels quite right.
advantage of exotic lands in producing certain goods alongside a
picture of Italy emphasising both near-miraculous all-round
productivity and an array of military institutions whose existence
expresses a significant surplus over subsistence production. This
element of the picture could be seen as presenting a country
menacingly bristling with weapons or one which has secured its own
peace and is ready to help secure that of others. Since the whole
tone of the passage suggests worldwide cooperation in material
production rather than plunder the second idea is the one that is
implied.
The ideology of the British Empire was to be built in part on
Ricardo's theory of comparative advantage, where it is best for all
the lands to specialise in some things that they can produce very
efficiently even if they can produce all sorts of things more cheaply
than all sorts of competitors. The British heartland was very good at
producing textiles and defence forces, so it was better for the
Indians to concentrate on producing opium and indigo while wearing
clothes produced in Manchester and letting British people play a lead
role in India's military systems - the arrangement which the Marxists
were controversially to blame for making the underdeveloped world
wallow in misery.
It's generally supposed that the law of comparative advantage was
unknown in the ancient world but perhaps V is getting at something
like it. V is not suggesting that Italy, for all its exceptional
productivity, should compete with Persia in the production of balm but
that Italy is well placed to provide security for many nations beside
itself. Many nations, though not the Persians, did indeed come to
think along these lines. We could then avoid thinking of the Laudes
Italiae either as ranting, war-mongering nationalism or as proto-
Marxist satire on imperialist swagger and boasting, neither of which
feels quite right.
Leofranc Holford-Strevens
Sep 18, 2009, 1:16:47 PM9/18/09
to mant...@googlegroups.com
>We could then avoid thinking of the Laudes Italiae either as ranting,
>war-mongering >nationalism or as proto-Marxist satire on imperialist
>swagger and boasting, neither of which
>feels quite right.
Neither feels right *at all*! Modern Italians are proud of so much about
>feels quite right.
their country without either passing for neo-Fascists or triggering the
irony filter. (Not indeed that I am bothered two hoots by imperialism even
when it is neither British nor Roman.)
Leofranc Holford-Strevens
67 St Bernard's Road
Oxford
usque adeone
OX2 6EJ scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat
alter?
tel. +44 (0) 1865 552808 (home)/353865 (work) fax +44 (0) 1865 512237
falmouth
Sep 19, 2009, 9:47:57 AM9/19/09
to Mantovano
...but the tone is quite hard to catch, I still feel, without
necessarily going so far as e.g. Ross and Thomas on the 'lies'
contained in this passage.
When we last discussed this passage, I suggested that the reader
should have at the forefront of his mind the distinction between Rome
and Italy: that while Italy might have been a 'Saturnia tellus', Roman
Italy no longer is.
Mynors' comment on 2.176 pushes me further in this direction
Ascraeumque cano Romana per oppida carmen.
"Romana per oppida: it was not long before V.'s own time that the
inhabitants of Italian towns had been given the citizenship and we
should perhaps see this as a deliberate reformulation of Lucr. 1.119
'per gentis Italas hominum quae clara clueret' behind which stands the
'latos... populos' of Ennius' prologue (ann. 12 Sk.). It incorporates
a paradox, for in one sense there were no 'oppida Romana' only 'Urbs
Romana'".
2.176 is, in itself, a strange climax to the laudes Italiae - no other
country can compete in 'laudes' with Italy but the song which V. sings
is an 'Ascraeum' song - i.e. an emulation of a *Greek* one. I am
tempted also to believe that with Ascraeum juxtaposed with 'Romana...
oppida'. we are meant to recall Hesiod's own description of his
birthplace, Ascra:
νάσσατο δ᾽ ἄγχ᾽ Ἑλικῶνος ὀιζυρῇ ἐνὶ κώμῃ,
Ἄσκρῃ, χεῖμα κακῇ, θέρει ἀργαλέῃ, οὐδέ ποτ᾽ ἐσθλῇ.
Hes. WD 639f [1]
although what one makes of the contrast between Ascra and these
"Romana... oppida" is open to interpretation: query 'this Italian, V.,
for all the splendour of 'Roman cities', can do no better than hope to
emulate the poet from scruffy Ascra"? A similar vein of thought to
tu regere imperio populos, Romane, memento
(hae tibi erunt artes), pacique imponere morem
parcere subiectis et debellare superbos.'
(Aen. 6.851-3)
where I would emphasise again *Romane* rather than e.g. Italia.
[1] We are surely also meant to remember these lines when we read V.'s
sign off at Geo. 4.563-6 - cf. especially "ignobilis" with οὐδέ ποτ᾽
ἐσθλῇ.
On 18 Sep, 18:16, "Leofranc Holford-Strevens"
> feels quite right.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
necessarily going so far as e.g. Ross and Thomas on the 'lies'
contained in this passage.
When we last discussed this passage, I suggested that the reader
should have at the forefront of his mind the distinction between Rome
and Italy: that while Italy might have been a 'Saturnia tellus', Roman
Italy no longer is.
Mynors' comment on 2.176 pushes me further in this direction
Ascraeumque cano Romana per oppida carmen.
"Romana per oppida: it was not long before V.'s own time that the
inhabitants of Italian towns had been given the citizenship and we
should perhaps see this as a deliberate reformulation of Lucr. 1.119
'per gentis Italas hominum quae clara clueret' behind which stands the
'latos... populos' of Ennius' prologue (ann. 12 Sk.). It incorporates
a paradox, for in one sense there were no 'oppida Romana' only 'Urbs
Romana'".
2.176 is, in itself, a strange climax to the laudes Italiae - no other
country can compete in 'laudes' with Italy but the song which V. sings
is an 'Ascraeum' song - i.e. an emulation of a *Greek* one. I am
tempted also to believe that with Ascraeum juxtaposed with 'Romana...
oppida'. we are meant to recall Hesiod's own description of his
birthplace, Ascra:
νάσσατο δ᾽ ἄγχ᾽ Ἑλικῶνος ὀιζυρῇ ἐνὶ κώμῃ,
Ἄσκρῃ, χεῖμα κακῇ, θέρει ἀργαλέῃ, οὐδέ ποτ᾽ ἐσθλῇ.
Hes. WD 639f [1]
although what one makes of the contrast between Ascra and these
"Romana... oppida" is open to interpretation: query 'this Italian, V.,
for all the splendour of 'Roman cities', can do no better than hope to
emulate the poet from scruffy Ascra"? A similar vein of thought to
tu regere imperio populos, Romane, memento
(hae tibi erunt artes), pacique imponere morem
parcere subiectis et debellare superbos.'
(Aen. 6.851-3)
where I would emphasise again *Romane* rather than e.g. Italia.
[1] We are surely also meant to remember these lines when we read V.'s
sign off at Geo. 4.563-6 - cf. especially "ignobilis" with οὐδέ ποτ᾽
ἐσθλῇ.
On 18 Sep, 18:16, "Leofranc Holford-Strevens"
>
> - Show quoted text -
sus...@aol.com
Sep 19, 2009, 10:16:00 AM9/19/09
to mant...@googlegroups.com
One must realize the pride that existed regarding even the small hamlet V another small hamlet.
The origin of ones' birth was at once considered sacred. The stones of the house, the earth near the doorways, all blessed by the occupant.
Each town, no matter the size was holy because of the souls it contained. The pride of origin meant everything.
The origin of ones' birth was at once considered sacred. The stones of the house, the earth near the doorways, all blessed by the occupant.
Each town, no matter the size was holy because of the souls it contained. The pride of origin meant everything.
From: falmouth <adria...@googlemail.com>
To: Mantovano <mant...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Sep 19, 2009 9:47 am
Subject: VIRGIL: Re: Virgil/Ricardo/Rome/Britain
...but the tone is quite hard to catch, I still feel, without
necessarily going so far as e.g. Ross and Thomas on the 'lies'
contained in this passage.
When we last discussed this passage, I suggested that the reader
should have at the forefront of his mind the distinction between Rome
and Italy: that while Italy might have been a 'Saturnia tellus', Roman
Italy no longer is.
Mynors' comment on 2.176 pushes me further in this direction
Ascraeumque cano Romana per oppida carmen.
"Romana per oppida: it was not long before V.'s own time that the
inhabitants of20Italian towns had been given the citizenship and we
falmouth
Sep 19, 2009, 1:41:31 PM9/19/09
to Mantovano
Yes, I do not doubt for a moment that it's natural for an Italian poet
to produce a 'laudes Italiae' from the wellspring of pride of origin.
But what V. has produced seems to be anything but straightforward is
the point that commentators have emphasised (e.g. no snakes in Italy -
really?; fighting off the 'imbellem...Indum'; Agrippa's huge mole in a
'Saturnia tellus' etc.). The singular point which I wanted to pick out
was: is it not strange as a climax to a passage which purports to
praise Italy for everything that it possesses, for V. to draw emphatic
attention to the fact that V.'s poem is derivative of a *Greek* poem?
On 19 Sep, 15:16, sust...@aol.com wrote:
> One must realize the pride that existed regarding even the small hamlet V another small hamlet.
> The origin of ones' birth was at once considered sacred. The stones of the house, the earth near the doorways, all blessed by the occupant.
> Each town, no matter the size was holy because of the souls it contained. The pride of origin meant everything.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: falmouth <adrianj...@googlemail.com>
> To: Mantovano <mant...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Sat, Sep 19, 2009 9:47 am
> Subject: VIRGIL: Re: Virgil/Ricardo/Rome/Britain
>
> ...but the tone is quite hard to catch, I still feel, without
> necessarily going so far as e.g. Ross and Thomas on the 'lies'
> contained in this passage.
>
> When we last discussed this passage, I suggested that the reader
> should have at the forefront of his mind the distinction between Rome
> and Italy: that while Italy might have been a 'Saturnia tellus', Roman
> Italy no longer is.
>
> Mynors' comment on 2.176 pushes me further in this direction
>
> Ascraeumque cano Romana per oppida carmen.
>
> "Romana per oppida: it was not long before V.'s own time that the
> inhabitants of Italian towns had been given the citizenship and we
> > peace and is ready to help secure that of=2
> 0others. Since the whole
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
to produce a 'laudes Italiae' from the wellspring of pride of origin.
But what V. has produced seems to be anything but straightforward is
the point that commentators have emphasised (e.g. no snakes in Italy -
really?; fighting off the 'imbellem...Indum'; Agrippa's huge mole in a
'Saturnia tellus' etc.). The singular point which I wanted to pick out
was: is it not strange as a climax to a passage which purports to
praise Italy for everything that it possesses, for V. to draw emphatic
attention to the fact that V.'s poem is derivative of a *Greek* poem?
On 19 Sep, 15:16, sust...@aol.com wrote:
> One must realize the pride that existed regarding even the small hamlet V another small hamlet.
> The origin of ones' birth was at once considered sacred. The stones of the house, the earth near the doorways, all blessed by the occupant.
> Each town, no matter the size was holy because of the souls it contained. The pride of origin meant everything.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: falmouth <adrianj...@googlemail.com>
> To: Mantovano <mant...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Sat, Sep 19, 2009 9:47 am
> Subject: VIRGIL: Re: Virgil/Ricardo/Rome/Britain
>
> ...but the tone is quite hard to catch, I still feel, without
> necessarily going so far as e.g. Ross and Thomas on the 'lies'
> contained in this passage.
>
> When we last discussed this passage, I suggested that the reader
> should have at the forefront of his mind the distinction between Rome
> and Italy: that while Italy might have been a 'Saturnia tellus', Roman
> Italy no longer is.
>
> Mynors' comment on 2.176 pushes me further in this direction
>
> Ascraeumque cano Romana per oppida carmen.
>
> "Romana per oppida: it was not long before V.'s own time that the
> should perhaps see this as a deliberate reformulation of Lucr. 1.119
> 'per gentis Italas hominum quae clara clueret' behind which stands the
> 'latos... populos' of Ennius' prologue (ann. 12 Sk.). It incorporates
> a paradox, for in one sense there were no 'oppida Romana' only 'Urbs
> Romana'".
>
> 2.176 is, in itself,20a strange climax to the laudes Italiae - no other
> 'per gentis Italas hominum quae clara clueret' behind which stands the
> 'latos... populos' of Ennius' prologue (ann. 12 Sk.). It incorporates
> a paradox, for in one sense there were no 'oppida Romana' only 'Urbs
> Romana'".
>
> country can compete in 'laudes' with Italy but the song which V. sings
> is an 'Ascraeum' song - i.e. an emulation of a *Greek* one. I am
> tempted also to believe that with Ascraeum juxtaposed with 'Romana...
> oppida'. we are meant to recall Hesiod's own description of his
> birthplace, Ascra:
>
> νάσσατο δ᾽ ἄγχ᾽ Ἑλικῶνος ὀιζυρῇ ἐνὶ κώμῃ,
> Ἄσκρῃ, χεῖμα κακῇ, θέρει ἀργαλέῃ, οὐδέ ποτ᾽ ἐσθλῇ.
> Hes. WD 639f [1]
>
> although what one makes of the contrast between Ascra and these
> "Romana... oppida" is open to interpretation: query 'this Italian, V.,
> for all the splendour of 'Roman cities', can do no better than hope to
> emulate the poet from scruffy Ascra"? A similar vein of thought to
>
> tu regere imperio populos, Romane, memento
> (hae tibi erunt artes), pacique imponere morem
> parcere subiectis et debellare superbos.'
> (Aen. 6.851-3)
>
> where I would emphasise again *Romane* rather than e.g. Italia.
>
> [1] We are surely also meant to remember these lines when we read V.'s
> sign off at Geo. 4.563-6 - cf. especially "ignobilis" with οὐδέ ποτ᾽
> ἐσθλῇ.
>
> On 18 Sep, 18:16, "Leofranc Holford-Strevens"
> <au
> is an 'Ascraeum' song - i.e. an emulation of a *Greek* one. I am
> tempted also to believe that with Ascraeum juxtaposed with 'Romana...
> oppida'. we are meant to recall Hesiod's own description of his
> birthplace, Ascra:
>
> νάσσατο δ᾽ ἄγχ᾽ Ἑλικῶνος ὀιζυρῇ ἐνὶ κώμῃ,
> Ἄσκρῃ, χεῖμα κακῇ, θέρει ἀργαλέῃ, οὐδέ ποτ᾽ ἐσθλῇ.
> Hes. WD 639f [1]
>
> although what one makes of the contrast between Ascra and these
> "Romana... oppida" is open to interpretation: query 'this Italian, V.,
> for all the splendour of 'Roman cities', can do no better than hope to
> emulate the poet from scruffy Ascra"? A similar vein of thought to
>
> tu regere imperio populos, Romane, memento
> (hae tibi erunt artes), pacique imponere morem
> parcere subiectis et debellare superbos.'
> (Aen. 6.851-3)
>
> where I would emphasise again *Romane* rather than e.g. Italia.
>
> [1] We are surely also meant to remember these lines when we read V.'s
> sign off at Geo. 4.563-6 - cf. especially "ignobilis" with οὐδέ ποτ᾽
> ἐσθλῇ.
>
> On 18 Sep, 18:16, "Leofranc Holford-Strevens"
> <au
> 0others. Since the whole
Leofranc Holford-Strevens
Sep 19, 2009, 1:56:54 PM9/19/09
to mant...@googlegroups.com
The Romans (like other peoples after them) distinguished between the Greeks
of their own day (conquered degenerates) and the wise and glorious Greeks of
ancientry; in Vergil's lifetime indeed intellectual fashion had made of
Latin an offshoot of Aeolic Greek, and Dionysius of Halicarnassus was doing
his best to Hellenize the origins of the city. In that sense, 'Ascraeumque
cano Romana per oppida carmen' may be seen less as cultural cringe and more
as reclaiming an inheritance.
If anything is awkward here it is '172 'imbellem quertis Romanis arcibus
Indum': if the Indian is unwarlike, what threat does he pose to Roman
citadels and how likely was he ever to get there anyway? Deutero-Servius
already saw the problem; we might say it was just an ill-advised traditional
epithet like Homer's 'blameless Aegisthus', but perhaps it should be read as
resultative: in warding off the threat, Augustus shows the Indian to be no
match for Roman arms. As a satire it would be not only unwise but
inelegantly crude; in any case Augustus obviously took no offence.
Leofranc Holford-Strevens
67 St Bernard's Road
Oxford
usque adeone
OX2 6EJ scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat
alter?
tel. +44 (0) 1865 552808 (home)/353865 (work) fax +44 (0) 1865 512237
----- Original Message -----
of their own day (conquered degenerates) and the wise and glorious Greeks of
ancientry; in Vergil's lifetime indeed intellectual fashion had made of
Latin an offshoot of Aeolic Greek, and Dionysius of Halicarnassus was doing
his best to Hellenize the origins of the city. In that sense, 'Ascraeumque
cano Romana per oppida carmen' may be seen less as cultural cringe and more
as reclaiming an inheritance.
If anything is awkward here it is '172 'imbellem quertis Romanis arcibus
Indum': if the Indian is unwarlike, what threat does he pose to Roman
citadels and how likely was he ever to get there anyway? Deutero-Servius
already saw the problem; we might say it was just an ill-advised traditional
epithet like Homer's 'blameless Aegisthus', but perhaps it should be read as
resultative: in warding off the threat, Augustus shows the Indian to be no
match for Roman arms. As a satire it would be not only unwise but
inelegantly crude; in any case Augustus obviously took no offence.
Leofranc Holford-Strevens
67 St Bernard's Road
Oxford
usque adeone
OX2 6EJ scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat
alter?
tel. +44 (0) 1865 552808 (home)/353865 (work) fax +44 (0) 1865 512237
----- Original Message -----
falmouth
Sep 20, 2009, 4:54:02 AM9/20/09
to Mantovano
One can only really take the "imbellem" as resultative if there had
ever been any suggestion that an 'Indus' was bellicose or a threat to
Roman cities: but they weren't (cf. Thomas ad loc. citing Livy
29.25.12). Maybe the solution is rather to take 'Romanis... arcibus'
as in effect proleptic - i.e. so many cities on farflung shores will
become Roman that the Romans will end up pushing away the unwarlike
Indians, a sense that might match up with the paradox in 'Romana...
oppida'.
While 'imbellem... Indum' may be the most prominent 'problem' in this
passage, it is not alone: accordingly, is it not better to accept that
it's problematic than to try to force the sense otherwise?
On 19 Sep, 18:56, "Leofranc Holford-Strevens"
ever been any suggestion that an 'Indus' was bellicose or a threat to
Roman cities: but they weren't (cf. Thomas ad loc. citing Livy
29.25.12). Maybe the solution is rather to take 'Romanis... arcibus'
as in effect proleptic - i.e. so many cities on farflung shores will
become Roman that the Romans will end up pushing away the unwarlike
Indians, a sense that might match up with the paradox in 'Romana...
oppida'.
While 'imbellem... Indum' may be the most prominent 'problem' in this
passage, it is not alone: accordingly, is it not better to accept that
it's problematic than to try to force the sense otherwise?
On 19 Sep, 18:56, "Leofranc Holford-Strevens"
falmouth
Sep 21, 2009, 10:46:30 AM9/21/09
to Mantovano
More thoughts on 'imbellem... Indum':
There's a certain resemblance between our line
"imbellem auertis Romanis arcibus Indum."
and the below
(A)
adueniet iustum pugnae (ne arcessite) tempus
cum fera Karthago *Romanis arcibus* olim
exitium magnum atque Alpis immittet apertas:
Aen. 10.11-3 (Jupiter predicts Hannibal's assault on Rome)
(B)
'surgite, et in medios *de summis arcibus hostes*
mittite, quam minime mittere voltis, opem.'
Ov. Fast. 6.387-8 (Jupiter tells the Romans to throw bread at the
Gauls)
(C)
sed maiora dedit cognomina collibus istis
Poenum qui *Latiis* reuocauit *ab arcibus hostem*
Scipio;
Lucan BC 4.656-8 (Scipio after Hannibal was repelled from Rome)
* Each has "arcibus" in the same sedes, in circumstances where it is
the Capitol rather than Rome generally which seems to be suggested
* all deal with assaults on Rome ((A) and (C) by Hannibal; (B) by the
Gauls);
* (A) has exactly "Romanis arcibus";
* (B) and (C) share "arcibus hostem[/(s)]";
* (C), in particular, shares with Geo. 2.172 the singular for plural
(i.e. "imbellem ... Indum" compare "Poenum...hostem");
* (A) and (B) are both from the mouth of Jupiter.
This at least raises the possibility that Vergil was echoing an
earlier line in Geo. 2.172, which from the other lines, one might
guess was a line dealing with the repulsion of Hannibal from "Romanis
arcibus" (in the mouth of Jupiter?)[1]. If such a line was written,
one would have little hesitation in guessing that it was written by
Ennius who dealt extensively with the Punic wars but also had Jupiter
prophesying such [2].
Let's assume for argument's sake Geo. 2.172 is a literary reference,
modifying Ennius' earlier prediction that Jupiter would ward off
Hannibal from the Capitol. This would both soften and facilitate the
general point of Geo. 2.172 - i.e. Rome's security is guaranteed by
its conquest of its bellicose nearest neighbours - now all it has to
do is protect itself from the 'imbellem... Indum' rather than the
'Poenum... hostem'. It would be another instance of assimilation of
Octavian to Jupiter. It is also very much grist to my mill that there
is a conscious distinction between Italy and Rome being emphasised, in
that a key part of the (unwilling?) 'buffer zone' protecting Rome from
the likes of Hannibal, in particular, is the enfranchisement/annexure
of Cisalpine Gaul (i.e. Hannibal's route 'Alpis... apertas') - see
especially the references to lakes Larius and Benacus at Geo.
2.159-60.
[1] I flirted with the possible suggestion of a line e.g. "re*bellem*
avertis Romanis arcibus Gallum" (cf. Aen. 6.858), but I think that
Hannibal is the more likely original subject.
[2] Leofranc will be able to say (far) better than me whether Geo.
2.172 has an Ennian feel to it - "Romanis" is a molossus with a word
break at the end of the fourth foot, thus archaic, I venture?
adjective + noun ("Romanis arcibus") immediately together is Ennian?
Vahlen already had conjectured that Aen. 10.12 derived from Book 8 of
the Annales on Hannibal. I think the passages I have cited might point
rather towards the beginning of the Annales.
There's a certain resemblance between our line
"imbellem auertis Romanis arcibus Indum."
and the below
(A)
adueniet iustum pugnae (ne arcessite) tempus
cum fera Karthago *Romanis arcibus* olim
exitium magnum atque Alpis immittet apertas:
Aen. 10.11-3 (Jupiter predicts Hannibal's assault on Rome)
(B)
'surgite, et in medios *de summis arcibus hostes*
mittite, quam minime mittere voltis, opem.'
Ov. Fast. 6.387-8 (Jupiter tells the Romans to throw bread at the
Gauls)
(C)
sed maiora dedit cognomina collibus istis
Poenum qui *Latiis* reuocauit *ab arcibus hostem*
Scipio;
Lucan BC 4.656-8 (Scipio after Hannibal was repelled from Rome)
* Each has "arcibus" in the same sedes, in circumstances where it is
the Capitol rather than Rome generally which seems to be suggested
* all deal with assaults on Rome ((A) and (C) by Hannibal; (B) by the
Gauls);
* (A) has exactly "Romanis arcibus";
* (B) and (C) share "arcibus hostem[/(s)]";
* (C), in particular, shares with Geo. 2.172 the singular for plural
(i.e. "imbellem ... Indum" compare "Poenum...hostem");
* (A) and (B) are both from the mouth of Jupiter.
This at least raises the possibility that Vergil was echoing an
earlier line in Geo. 2.172, which from the other lines, one might
guess was a line dealing with the repulsion of Hannibal from "Romanis
arcibus" (in the mouth of Jupiter?)[1]. If such a line was written,
one would have little hesitation in guessing that it was written by
Ennius who dealt extensively with the Punic wars but also had Jupiter
prophesying such [2].
Let's assume for argument's sake Geo. 2.172 is a literary reference,
modifying Ennius' earlier prediction that Jupiter would ward off
Hannibal from the Capitol. This would both soften and facilitate the
general point of Geo. 2.172 - i.e. Rome's security is guaranteed by
its conquest of its bellicose nearest neighbours - now all it has to
do is protect itself from the 'imbellem... Indum' rather than the
'Poenum... hostem'. It would be another instance of assimilation of
Octavian to Jupiter. It is also very much grist to my mill that there
is a conscious distinction between Italy and Rome being emphasised, in
that a key part of the (unwilling?) 'buffer zone' protecting Rome from
the likes of Hannibal, in particular, is the enfranchisement/annexure
of Cisalpine Gaul (i.e. Hannibal's route 'Alpis... apertas') - see
especially the references to lakes Larius and Benacus at Geo.
2.159-60.
[1] I flirted with the possible suggestion of a line e.g. "re*bellem*
avertis Romanis arcibus Gallum" (cf. Aen. 6.858), but I think that
Hannibal is the more likely original subject.
[2] Leofranc will be able to say (far) better than me whether Geo.
2.172 has an Ennian feel to it - "Romanis" is a molossus with a word
break at the end of the fourth foot, thus archaic, I venture?
adjective + noun ("Romanis arcibus") immediately together is Ennian?
Vahlen already had conjectured that Aen. 10.12 derived from Book 8 of
the Annales on Hannibal. I think the passages I have cited might point
rather towards the beginning of the Annales.
falmouth
Sep 21, 2009, 10:47:46 AM9/21/09
to Mantovano
au...@gellius.demon.co.uk
Sep 21, 2009, 11:50:39 AM9/21/09
to mant...@googlegroups.com, au...@gellius.demon.co.uk
An echoe of Ennius might seem to be suggested by this cluster of parallels, even if neither Servius nor Macrobius says anything about it, and Romanis arcibus would fit nicely enough in an Ennian hexameter, but there;'s nothing archaic or un-Vergilian about it, least of all at the end of a period, where homodyny is more frequent.
> > > The Romans (like other peoples after them) distinguished between the Gr=
> eeks
> > > of their own day (conquered degenerates) and the wise and glorious Gree=
> oing
> > > his best to Hellenize the origins of the city. In that sense, 'Ascraeum=
> que
> > > cano Romana per oppida carmen' may be seen less as cultural cringe and =
> s
> > > already saw the problem; we might say it was just an ill-advised tradit=
> ional
> > > epithet like Homer's 'blameless Aegisthus', but perhaps it should be re=
> ad as
> > > resultative: in warding off the threat, Augustus shows the Indian to be=
> > > OX2 6EJ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â =
> Â Â scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat
> > > alter?
> >
> > > tel. +44 (0) 1865 552808 (home)/353865 (work) Â fax +44 (0) 1865 51=
> er
> > > > country can compete in 'laudes' with Italy but the song which V. sing=
> „γχ᾽ Ἑλικῶνο=
> Ï‚ á½€Î¹Î¶Ï…Ï á¿‡ ἠνὶ =
> κώμῃ,
> > > > á¼ŒÏƒÎºÏ á¿ƒ, χεῖμÎ=
> ± κακῇ, Î¸á½³Ï ÎµÎ¹ á¼=
> €Ï γαλέῃ, οὠδá½=
> ³ ποτ᾽ ἠσθλῇ.
> ,
> > > > for all the splendour of 'Roman cities', can do no better than hope t=
> s
> > > > sign off at Geo. 4.563-6 - cf. especially "ignobilis" with οá=
> ½ δέ ποτ᾽
> > > > ἠσθλῇ.
> ng,
> > > > > >war-mongering >nationalism or as proto-Marxist satire on imperiali=
> about
> > > > > their country without either passing for neo-Fascists or triggering=
> the
> > > > > irony filter. (Not indeed that I am bothered two hoots by imperiali=
> ly
> > > > > than all sorts of competitors. The British heartland was very good =
> ad
> > > > > role in India's military systems - the arrangement which the Marxis=
> but
> > > > > that Italy is well placed to provide security for many nations besi=
> eeks
> > > of their own day (conquered degenerates) and the wise and glorious Gree=
> ks of
> > > ancientry; in Vergil's lifetime indeed intellectual fashion had made of
> > > Latin an offshoot of Aeolic Greek, and Dionysius of Halicarnassus was d=
> > > ancientry; in Vergil's lifetime indeed intellectual fashion had made of
> oing
> > > his best to Hellenize the origins of the city. In that sense, 'Ascraeum=
> que
> > > cano Romana per oppida carmen' may be seen less as cultural cringe and =
> more
> > > as reclaiming an inheritance.
> >
> > > If anything is awkward here it is '172 'imbellem quertis Romanis arcibu=
> > > as reclaiming an inheritance.
> >
> s
> > > Indum': if the Indian is unwarlike, what threat does he pose to Roman
> > > citadels and how likely was he ever to get there anyway? Deutero-Serviu=
> > > Indum': if the Indian is unwarlike, what threat does he pose to Roman
> s
> > > already saw the problem; we might say it was just an ill-advised tradit=
> ional
> > > epithet like Homer's 'blameless Aegisthus', but perhaps it should be re=
> ad as
> > > resultative: in warding off the threat, Augustus shows the Indian to be=
> no
> > > match for Roman arms. As a satire it would be not only unwise but
> > > inelegantly crude; in any case Augustus obviously took no offence.
> >
> > > Leofranc Holford-Strevens
> > > 67 St Bernard's Road
> > > Oxford
> > > usque  adeone
> > > match for Roman arms. As a satire it would be not only unwise but
> > > inelegantly crude; in any case Augustus obviously took no offence.
> >
> > > Leofranc Holford-Strevens
> > > 67 St Bernard's Road
> > > Oxford
> > > OX2 6EJ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â =
> Â Â scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat
> > > alter?
> >
> > > tel. +44 (0) 1865 552808 (home)/353865 (work) Â fax +44 (0) 1865 51=
> 2237
> >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "falmouth" <adrianj...@googlemail.com>
> > > To: "Mantovano" <mant...@googlegroups.com>
> > > Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 6:41 PM
> > > Subject: VIRGIL: Re: Virgil/Ricardo/Rome/Britain
> >
> > > Yes, I do not doubt for a moment that it's natural for an Italian poet
> > > to produce a 'laudes Italiae' from the wellspring of pride of origin.
> > > But what V. has produced seems to be anything but straightforward is
> > > the point that commentators have emphasised (e.g. no snakes in Italy -
> > > really?; fighting off the 'imbellem...Indum'; Agrippa's huge mole in a
> > > 'Saturnia tellus' etc.). The singular point which I wanted to pick out
> > > was: is it not strange as a climax to a passage which purports to
> > > praise Italy for everything that it possesses, for V. to draw emphatic
> > > attention to the fact that V.'s poem is derivative of a *Greek* poem?
> >
> > > On 19 Sep, 15:16, sust...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > One must realize the pride that existed regarding even the small haml=
> >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "falmouth" <adrianj...@googlemail.com>
> > > To: "Mantovano" <mant...@googlegroups.com>
> > > Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 6:41 PM
> > > Subject: VIRGIL: Re: Virgil/Ricardo/Rome/Britain
> >
> > > Yes, I do not doubt for a moment that it's natural for an Italian poet
> > > to produce a 'laudes Italiae' from the wellspring of pride of origin.
> > > But what V. has produced seems to be anything but straightforward is
> > > the point that commentators have emphasised (e.g. no snakes in Italy -
> > > really?; fighting off the 'imbellem...Indum'; Agrippa's huge mole in a
> > > 'Saturnia tellus' etc.). The singular point which I wanted to pick out
> > > was: is it not strange as a climax to a passage which purports to
> > > praise Italy for everything that it possesses, for V. to draw emphatic
> > > attention to the fact that V.'s poem is derivative of a *Greek* poem?
> >
> > > On 19 Sep, 15:16, sust...@aol.com wrote:
> et V
> > > > another small hamlet.
> > > > The origin of ones' birth was at once considered sacred. The stones o=
> > > > another small hamlet.
> f the
> > > > house, the earth near the doorways, all blessed by the occupant.
> > > > Each town, no matter the size was holy because of the souls it contai=
> > > > house, the earth near the doorways, all blessed by the occupant.
> ned.
> > > > The pride of origin meant everything.
> >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: falmouth <adrianj...@googlemail.com>
> > > > To: Mantovano <mant...@googlegroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Sat, Sep 19, 2009 9:47 am
> > > > Subject: VIRGIL: Re: Virgil/Ricardo/Rome/Britain
> >
> > > > ...but the tone is quite hard to catch, I still feel, without
> > > > necessarily going so far as e.g. Ross and Thomas on the 'lies'
> > > > contained in this passage.
> >
> > > > When we last discussed this passage, I suggested that the reader
> > > > should have at the forefront of his mind the distinction between Rome
> > > > and Italy: that while Italy might have been a 'Saturnia tellus', Roma=
> > > > The pride of origin meant everything.
> >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: falmouth <adrianj...@googlemail.com>
> > > > To: Mantovano <mant...@googlegroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Sat, Sep 19, 2009 9:47 am
> > > > Subject: VIRGIL: Re: Virgil/Ricardo/Rome/Britain
> >
> > > > ...but the tone is quite hard to catch, I still feel, without
> > > > necessarily going so far as e.g. Ross and Thomas on the 'lies'
> > > > contained in this passage.
> >
> > > > When we last discussed this passage, I suggested that the reader
> > > > should have at the forefront of his mind the distinction between Rome
> n
> > > > Italy no longer is.
> >
> > > > Mynors' comment on 2.176 pushes me further in this direction
> >
> > > > Ascraeumque cano Romana per oppida carmen.
> >
> > > > "Romana per oppida: it was not long before V.'s own time that the
> > > > inhabitants of Italian towns had been given the citizenship and we
> > > > should perhaps see this as a deliberate reformulation of Lucr. 1.119
> > > > 'per gentis Italas hominum quae clara clueret' behind which stands th=
> > > > Italy no longer is.
> >
> > > > Mynors' comment on 2.176 pushes me further in this direction
> >
> > > > Ascraeumque cano Romana per oppida carmen.
> >
> > > > "Romana per oppida: it was not long before V.'s own time that the
> > > > inhabitants of Italian towns had been given the citizenship and we
> > > > should perhaps see this as a deliberate reformulation of Lucr. 1.119
> e
> > > > 'latos... populos' of Ennius' prologue (ann. 12 Sk.). It incorporates
> > > > a paradox, for in one sense there were no 'oppida Romana' only 'Urbs
> > > > Romana'".
> >
> > > > 2.176 is, in itself,20a strange climax to the laudes Italiae - no oth=
> > > > 'latos... populos' of Ennius' prologue (ann. 12 Sk.). It incorporates
> > > > a paradox, for in one sense there were no 'oppida Romana' only 'Urbs
> > > > Romana'".
> >
> er
> > > > country can compete in 'laudes' with Italy but the song which V. sing=
> s
> > > > is an 'Ascraeum' song - i.e. an emulation of a *Greek* one. I am
> > > > tempted also to believe that with Ascraeum juxtaposed with 'Romana...
> > > > oppida'. we are meant to recall Hesiod's own description of his
> > > > birthplace, Ascra:
> >
> > > > νάσσατο δ᾽ á¼=
> > > > is an 'Ascraeum' song - i.e. an emulation of a *Greek* one. I am
> > > > tempted also to believe that with Ascraeum juxtaposed with 'Romana...
> > > > oppida'. we are meant to recall Hesiod's own description of his
> > > > birthplace, Ascra:
> >
> „γχ᾽ Ἑλικῶνο=
> Ï‚ á½€Î¹Î¶Ï…Ï á¿‡ ἠνὶ =
> κώμῃ,
> > > > á¼ŒÏƒÎºÏ á¿ƒ, χεῖμÎ=
> ± κακῇ, Î¸á½³Ï ÎµÎ¹ á¼=
> €Ï γαλέῃ, οὠδá½=
> ³ ποτ᾽ ἠσθλῇ.
> > > > Hes. WD 639f [1]
> >
> > > > although what one makes of the contrast between Ascra and these
> > > > "Romana... oppida" is open to interpretation: query 'this Italian, V.=
> >
> > > > although what one makes of the contrast between Ascra and these
> ,
> > > > for all the splendour of 'Roman cities', can do no better than hope t=
> o
> > > > emulate the poet from scruffy Ascra"? A similar vein of thought to
> >
> > > > tu regere imperio populos, Romane, memento
> > > > (hae tibi erunt artes), pacique imponere morem
> > > > parcere subiectis et debellare superbos.'
> > > > (Aen. 6.851-3)
> >
> > > > where I would emphasise again *Romane* rather than e.g. Italia.
> >
> > > > [1] We are surely also meant to remember these lines when we read V.'=
> > > > emulate the poet from scruffy Ascra"? A similar vein of thought to
> >
> > > > tu regere imperio populos, Romane, memento
> > > > (hae tibi erunt artes), pacique imponere morem
> > > > parcere subiectis et debellare superbos.'
> > > > (Aen. 6.851-3)
> >
> > > > where I would emphasise again *Romane* rather than e.g. Italia.
> >
> s
> > > > sign off at Geo. 4.563-6 - cf. especially "ignobilis" with οá=
> ½ δέ ποτ᾽
> > > > ἠσθλῇ.
> >
> > > > On 18 Sep, 18:16, "Leofranc Holford-Strevens"
> > > > <au
> > > > ....@gellius.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > > >We could then avoid thinking of the Laudes Italiae either as ranti=
> > > > On 18 Sep, 18:16, "Leofranc Holford-Strevens"
> > > > <au
> > > > ....@gellius.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> ng,
> > > > > >war-mongering >nationalism or as proto-Marxist satire on imperiali=
> st
> > > > > >swagger and boasting, neither of which
> > > > > >feels quite right.
> >
> > > > > Neither feels right *at all*! Modern Italians are proud of so much =
> > > > > >swagger and boasting, neither of which
> > > > > >feels quite right.
> >
> about
> > > > > their country without either passing for neo-Fascists or triggering=
> the
> > > > > irony filter. (Not indeed that I am bothered two hoots by imperiali=
> sm
> > > > > even
> > > > > when it is neither British nor Roman.)
> >
> > > > > Leofranc Holford-Strevens
> > > > > 67 St Bernard's Road
> > > > > Oxford
> > > > > usque adeone
> > > > > OX2 6EJ scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat
> > > > > alter?
> >
> > > > > tel. +44 (0) 1865 552808 (home)/353865 (work) fax +44 (0) 1865 5122=
> > > > > even
> > > > > when it is neither British nor Roman.)
> >
> > > > > Leofranc Holford-Strevens
> > > > > 67 St Bernard's Road
> > > > > Oxford
> > > > > usque adeone
> > > > > OX2 6EJ scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat
> > > > > alter?
> >
> 37
> >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Martin50" <rosemarti...@talktalk.net>
> > > > > To: "Mantovano" <mant...@googlegroups.com>
> > > > > Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 5:36 PM
> > > > > Subject: VIRGIL: Virgil/Ricardo/Rome/Britain
> >
> > > > > The economics of Georgics II involve acceptance of the absolute
> > > > > advantage of exotic lands in producing certain goods alongside a
> > > > > picture of Italy emphasising both near-miraculous all-round
> > > > > productivity and an array of military institutions whose existence
> > > > > expresses a significant surplus over subsistence production. This
> > > > > element of the picture could be seen as presenting a country
> > > > > menacingly bristling with weapons or one which has secured its own
> > > > > peace and is ready to help secure that of=2
> > > > 0others. Since the whole
> > > > > tone of the passage suggests worldwide cooperation in material
> > > > > production rather than plunder the second idea is the one that is
> > > > > implied.
> > > > > The ideology of the British Empire was to be built in part on
> > > > > Ricardo's theory of comparative advantage, where it is best for all
> > > > > the lands to specialise in some things that they can produce very
> > > > > efficiently even if they can produce all sorts of things more cheap=
> >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Martin50" <rosemarti...@talktalk.net>
> > > > > To: "Mantovano" <mant...@googlegroups.com>
> > > > > Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 5:36 PM
> > > > > Subject: VIRGIL: Virgil/Ricardo/Rome/Britain
> >
> > > > > The economics of Georgics II involve acceptance of the absolute
> > > > > advantage of exotic lands in producing certain goods alongside a
> > > > > picture of Italy emphasising both near-miraculous all-round
> > > > > productivity and an array of military institutions whose existence
> > > > > expresses a significant surplus over subsistence production. This
> > > > > element of the picture could be seen as presenting a country
> > > > > menacingly bristling with weapons or one which has secured its own
> > > > > peace and is ready to help secure that of=2
> > > > 0others. Since the whole
> > > > > tone of the passage suggests worldwide cooperation in material
> > > > > production rather than plunder the second idea is the one that is
> > > > > implied.
> > > > > The ideology of the British Empire was to be built in part on
> > > > > Ricardo's theory of comparative advantage, where it is best for all
> > > > > the lands to specialise in some things that they can produce very
> ly
> > > > > than all sorts of competitors. The British heartland was very good =
> at
> > > > > producing textiles and defence forces, so it was better for the
> > > > > Indians to concentrate on producing opium and indigo while wearing
> > > > > clothes produced in Manchester and letting British people play a le=
> > > > > producing textiles and defence forces, so it was better for the
> > > > > Indians to concentrate on producing opium and indigo while wearing
> ad
> > > > > role in India's military systems - the arrangement which the Marxis=
> ts
> > > > > were controversially to blame for making the underdeveloped world
> > > > > wallow in misery.
> > > > > It's generally supposed that the law of comparative advantage was
> > > > > unknown in the ancient world but perhaps V is getting at something
> > > > > like it. V is not suggesting that Italy, for all its exceptional
> > > > > productivity, should compete with Persia in the production of balm =
> > > > > were controversially to blame for making the underdeveloped world
> > > > > wallow in misery.
> > > > > It's generally supposed that the law of comparative advantage was
> > > > > unknown in the ancient world but perhaps V is getting at something
> > > > > like it. V is not suggesting that Italy, for all its exceptional
> but
> > > > > that Italy is well placed to provide security for many nations besi=
falmouth
Sep 21, 2009, 5:38:57 PM9/21/09
to Mantovano
Encouraged, or at least not discouraged, by the above, I think one can
also fortify the suggestion from another angle, namely by emphasising
that these lines seem to be more generally influenced by Ennius:
recognised by Mynors (but not at all in Thomas): I think one can
further the extent
qui nunc extremis Asiae iam uictor in oris
magna uirum: tibi res antiquae laudis et artem
ingredior sanctos ausus recludere fontis, 175
(1) "...Romanis arcibus" cf. above;
(2) "Saturnia tellus" cf. "Saturnia terra" Ennius Ann. 21 Sk. (noted
by Mynors)
(3) "res antiquae laudis et artem" cf. Ennius Ann 12 Sk. "res atque
poemata" (noted by Mynors)
(4) but also with "Saturnia tellus, magna virum: tibi res antiquae
laudis et artem" cf. also the famous "Moribus antiquis res stat Romana
virisque." Enn. Ann. 156 Sk., noting the substitution of 'Saturnia
tellus' for Romana (more on this below).
(5) "sanctos ausus recludere fontis": 'There is an echo of Ennius Ann.
210 Sk. (the beginning of his 7th book) 'nos ausi reserare' (whence
perhaps Stat. Silv. 2.2.38-9 'reseret ... fontes'" (Mynors). In the
cited passage of the Silvae, the fountains are those on Mount Helicon.
(6) The image of taking draughts from the fountains on Helicon, from
Hesiod and Callimachus, almost certainly reappeared in Ennius. Thomas
on Geo. 2.175 cites Lucr. 1.927-8 'iuvat integros accedere fontis
atque haurire' but Lucretius, it is likely, is repeating Ennius'
imagery: crucial is Prop. 3.3.5-6 'parvaque iam magnis admoram
fontibus ora / unde pater sitiens Ennius ante bibit...'.
(7) Geo. 2.176, I have already cited Mynors comment: V. adapts Lucr.
description of Ennius substituting 'Romana oppida' for 'Italas
gentes'. Lucr. description apparently derives itself from
'latos...populos' (Ann. 12 Sk.) (one cannot exclude the possibility
that something closer still is lost).
(8) Ennius' Annales were an 'Ascraeum... carmen' at least in the sense
that Ennius apparently described himself as undergoing a Hesiodic type
initiation.
In short, one can detect, despite fragmentary knowledge of Ennius,
that these lines are heavily influenced by Ennius throughout. (NB
probably also for the preceding lines cf. Mynors notes on 'Volscosque
verutos'; 'Scipiadas'.
Point (4) above is one which interests me, if right, since this seems
to be complementary to point (7) - i.e. where in point (7) V. has
substituted for 'Romana ... oppida' for 'Italas ... gentes' (Italians
have become Romans); in point (4), there seems to be the other side of
the coin: while Ennius had said Rome's greatness derived from its own
ancient customs/morality and ancestors, Vergil seems to be insisting
that Roman achievements stand on Italian foundations.
There would also seem to be a literary point as well: Ennius had a
Hesiodic initiation but what he produced was a Roman annalistic epic
(not something akin to Hesiod's works). V. is to supplant Ennius with
a genuinely Hesiodic work, a Works and Days in the Latin language.
Again, here I see Italian agriculture as in potential opposition to
Roman military/civil achievements (i.e. (Italian) Georgics v (Roman)
Annales). On a larger scale Geo. 2.458-540 as potentially antithetical
to the Roman elements in Geo. 2.136-176.
In sum, I would suggest that the not wholly comfortable undercurrent
to Geo. 2.136-176 is a questioning of Rome's hold on Italy and,
complementary to this, an insistence on Rome's dependence on Italian
agricultural stock.
> > > > usque  adeone
> > > > OX2 6EJ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â =
> > Â Â scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat
> > > > alter?
>
> > > > tel. +44 (0) 1865 552808 (home)/353865 (work) Â fax +44 (0) 1865 51=
> > > > > Î½á½±à ƒà ƒÎ±à „Î¿ δ᾽ á¼=
> > „Î³à ‡á¾½ Ἑλικῶνο=
> > à ‚ á½€Î¹Î¶à …à ῇ ἠνὶ =
> > κώμῃ,
> > > > > á¼Œà ƒÎºà ῃ, à ‡Îµá¿–Î¼Î=
> > ± κακῇ, θέà ει á¼=
> > €Ã
>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
also fortify the suggestion from another angle, namely by emphasising
that these lines seem to be more generally influenced by Ennius:
recognised by Mynors (but not at all in Thomas): I think one can
further the extent
qui nunc extremis Asiae iam uictor in oris
imbellem auertis Romanis arcibus Indum.
salue, magna parens frugum, Saturnia tellus,
magna uirum: tibi res antiquae laudis et artem
ingredior sanctos ausus recludere fontis, 175
Ascraeumque cano Romana per oppida carmen.
[Geo. 172ff]
(1) "...Romanis arcibus" cf. above;
(2) "Saturnia tellus" cf. "Saturnia terra" Ennius Ann. 21 Sk. (noted
by Mynors)
(3) "res antiquae laudis et artem" cf. Ennius Ann 12 Sk. "res atque
poemata" (noted by Mynors)
(4) but also with "Saturnia tellus, magna virum: tibi res antiquae
laudis et artem" cf. also the famous "Moribus antiquis res stat Romana
virisque." Enn. Ann. 156 Sk., noting the substitution of 'Saturnia
tellus' for Romana (more on this below).
(5) "sanctos ausus recludere fontis": 'There is an echo of Ennius Ann.
210 Sk. (the beginning of his 7th book) 'nos ausi reserare' (whence
perhaps Stat. Silv. 2.2.38-9 'reseret ... fontes'" (Mynors). In the
cited passage of the Silvae, the fountains are those on Mount Helicon.
(6) The image of taking draughts from the fountains on Helicon, from
Hesiod and Callimachus, almost certainly reappeared in Ennius. Thomas
on Geo. 2.175 cites Lucr. 1.927-8 'iuvat integros accedere fontis
atque haurire' but Lucretius, it is likely, is repeating Ennius'
imagery: crucial is Prop. 3.3.5-6 'parvaque iam magnis admoram
fontibus ora / unde pater sitiens Ennius ante bibit...'.
(7) Geo. 2.176, I have already cited Mynors comment: V. adapts Lucr.
description of Ennius substituting 'Romana oppida' for 'Italas
gentes'. Lucr. description apparently derives itself from
'latos...populos' (Ann. 12 Sk.) (one cannot exclude the possibility
that something closer still is lost).
(8) Ennius' Annales were an 'Ascraeum... carmen' at least in the sense
that Ennius apparently described himself as undergoing a Hesiodic type
initiation.
In short, one can detect, despite fragmentary knowledge of Ennius,
that these lines are heavily influenced by Ennius throughout. (NB
probably also for the preceding lines cf. Mynors notes on 'Volscosque
verutos'; 'Scipiadas'.
Point (4) above is one which interests me, if right, since this seems
to be complementary to point (7) - i.e. where in point (7) V. has
substituted for 'Romana ... oppida' for 'Italas ... gentes' (Italians
have become Romans); in point (4), there seems to be the other side of
the coin: while Ennius had said Rome's greatness derived from its own
ancient customs/morality and ancestors, Vergil seems to be insisting
that Roman achievements stand on Italian foundations.
There would also seem to be a literary point as well: Ennius had a
Hesiodic initiation but what he produced was a Roman annalistic epic
(not something akin to Hesiod's works). V. is to supplant Ennius with
a genuinely Hesiodic work, a Works and Days in the Latin language.
Again, here I see Italian agriculture as in potential opposition to
Roman military/civil achievements (i.e. (Italian) Georgics v (Roman)
Annales). On a larger scale Geo. 2.458-540 as potentially antithetical
to the Roman elements in Geo. 2.136-176.
In sum, I would suggest that the not wholly comfortable undercurrent
to Geo. 2.136-176 is a questioning of Rome's hold on Italy and,
complementary to this, an insistence on Rome's dependence on Italian
agricultural stock.
> > > > OX2 6EJ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â =
> > Â Â scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat
> > > > alter?
>
> > > > tel. +44 (0) 1865 552808 (home)/353865 (work) Â fax +44 (0) 1865 51=
> > „Î³à ‡á¾½ Ἑλικῶνο=
> > à ‚ á½€Î¹Î¶à …à ῇ ἠνὶ =
> > κώμῃ,
> > > > > á¼Œà ƒÎºà ῃ, à ‡Îµá¿–Î¼Î=
> > ± κακῇ, θέà ει á¼=
> > €Ã
>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
Leofranc Holford-Strevens
Sep 21, 2009, 6:18:13 PM9/21/09
to mant...@googlegroups.com
'The North, unlike so many parts of Italy, had no history of its own, with
memories of ancient independence from Rome--or recent hostility': Syme, The
Roman Revolution, 465, with reference to Vergil's Mantua and Livy's
Patavium. Et paulo post
'But all these diverse loyalties, as was fitting in a colonial frontier
zone, were transcended in a common national devotion to Rome. Further, as
might be expected of a region that had only recenty become a part of Italy,
the name 'Italian' bore a heavier emphasis and a fuller emotional content
than elsewhere. For all the talk of a united Italy and all the realities of
reconciliation, there must still have been Romans who were a little shocked
at hearing tyhe army of the Roman people described as 'Italans':
hinc Augustus agens Italos in proelia Caesar.
August was singularly fortunate in discovering for his epic poet of Italy a
man whose verse and sentimens harmonized so easily with his own ideas and
policy. Here was his _tota Italia_, spontaneous and admirable. To Virgil the
Transpadane, Actium is the victory of Italy, not of Rome only. This
conception does not find expression in the versions of Horace and
Propertius.' (Ibid. 465-6.)
As to Ennius, don't forget 'Marsa manus, Paeligna cohors, Vestina virum vis'
(229 Skutsch; unattributed, but whose else could it be?), as eloquent a
tribute to the Italian part in Rome's rise as anything in Old Cato. But the
Paeligni had memories of recent hostility--'quos sua libertas ad honesta
coegerat arma', as Ovid was to say. (Is that verse inscribed on any
Confederate war memorials, I wonder?). they may stand for a contrast with
the Transpadanes.
Leofranc Holford-Strevens
67 St Bernard's Road
Oxford
usque adeone
OX2 6EJ scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat
alter?
memories of ancient independence from Rome--or recent hostility': Syme, The
Roman Revolution, 465, with reference to Vergil's Mantua and Livy's
Patavium. Et paulo post
'But all these diverse loyalties, as was fitting in a colonial frontier
zone, were transcended in a common national devotion to Rome. Further, as
might be expected of a region that had only recenty become a part of Italy,
the name 'Italian' bore a heavier emphasis and a fuller emotional content
than elsewhere. For all the talk of a united Italy and all the realities of
reconciliation, there must still have been Romans who were a little shocked
at hearing tyhe army of the Roman people described as 'Italans':
hinc Augustus agens Italos in proelia Caesar.
August was singularly fortunate in discovering for his epic poet of Italy a
man whose verse and sentimens harmonized so easily with his own ideas and
policy. Here was his _tota Italia_, spontaneous and admirable. To Virgil the
Transpadane, Actium is the victory of Italy, not of Rome only. This
conception does not find expression in the versions of Horace and
Propertius.' (Ibid. 465-6.)
As to Ennius, don't forget 'Marsa manus, Paeligna cohors, Vestina virum vis'
(229 Skutsch; unattributed, but whose else could it be?), as eloquent a
tribute to the Italian part in Rome's rise as anything in Old Cato. But the
Paeligni had memories of recent hostility--'quos sua libertas ad honesta
coegerat arma', as Ovid was to say. (Is that verse inscribed on any
Confederate war memorials, I wonder?). they may stand for a contrast with
the Transpadanes.
Leofranc Holford-Strevens
67 St Bernard's Road
Oxford
OX2 6EJ scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat
alter?
----- Original Message -----
From: "falmouth" <adria...@googlemail.com>
To: "Mantovano" <mant...@googlegroups.com>
From: "falmouth" <adria...@googlemail.com>
To: "Mantovano" <mant...@googlegroups.com>
falmouth
Sep 22, 2009, 5:20:38 AM9/22/09
to Mantovano
I think that I'd be at least partially satisfied to get to the point
that the 'laus Italiae' at least engages with the Italy ~ Rome
question. Beyond that, one is confronted with a similar problem to the
'pro-Augustan / anti-Augustan' question: the interpretative question
being 'does V. raise such issues to problematize them or to resolve
them (...or both...)?'.
'hinc Augustus agens Italos in proelia Caesar.' was a line which
cropped up in a discussion before - it is, of course, how Octavian
wanted Actium to be seen and corresponds with the description of the
other side as exotic Easterners (against the known reality, of
course). Is Vergil here settling the question, as it were, for
Octavian's benefit, or encouraging the stated position to be probed?
This is, of course, a description of an item commissioned by Venus,
with her Roman partiality.
Another related e.g. from the Georgics:
primus ego in patriam mecum, modo uita supersit, 10
Aonio rediens deducam uertice Musas;
primus Idumaeas referam tibi, Mantua, palmas,
et uiridi in campo templum de marmore ponam
propter aquam, tardis ingens ubi flexibus errat
Mincius et tenera praetexit harundine ripas. 15
The background is again, surely, Ennius (cf. esp. Geo. 3.9 citing
Ennius' epitaph and cf. Lucretius on Ennius bringing down the garland
of the Muses from Helicon), and the particular point of engagement
would seem to be with Ennius' patron's, Fulvius Nobilior's, dedication
of the temple of Hercules Musarum at Rome (near the Campus Martius -
cf. 'viridi in campo'? within a bend of the Tiber), having brought
back statues of the Muses as spoils from his Aetolian campaign. What
is the point of emphasis in Geo. 3.10-15 which justifies V.'s 'primus'
in the face of his acknowledged model, Ennius: I would say the
development from the potentially neutral or ambiguous 'patriam' to the
empatic *Mantua* and *Mincius*: a poetical triumph and temple not in
Rome but in Vergil's own birthplace.
On Sep 21, 11:18 pm, "Leofranc Holford-Strevens"
that the 'laus Italiae' at least engages with the Italy ~ Rome
question. Beyond that, one is confronted with a similar problem to the
'pro-Augustan / anti-Augustan' question: the interpretative question
being 'does V. raise such issues to problematize them or to resolve
them (...or both...)?'.
'hinc Augustus agens Italos in proelia Caesar.' was a line which
cropped up in a discussion before - it is, of course, how Octavian
wanted Actium to be seen and corresponds with the description of the
other side as exotic Easterners (against the known reality, of
course). Is Vergil here settling the question, as it were, for
Octavian's benefit, or encouraging the stated position to be probed?
This is, of course, a description of an item commissioned by Venus,
with her Roman partiality.
Another related e.g. from the Georgics:
primus ego in patriam mecum, modo uita supersit, 10
Aonio rediens deducam uertice Musas;
primus Idumaeas referam tibi, Mantua, palmas,
et uiridi in campo templum de marmore ponam
propter aquam, tardis ingens ubi flexibus errat
Mincius et tenera praetexit harundine ripas. 15
The background is again, surely, Ennius (cf. esp. Geo. 3.9 citing
Ennius' epitaph and cf. Lucretius on Ennius bringing down the garland
of the Muses from Helicon), and the particular point of engagement
would seem to be with Ennius' patron's, Fulvius Nobilior's, dedication
of the temple of Hercules Musarum at Rome (near the Campus Martius -
cf. 'viridi in campo'? within a bend of the Tiber), having brought
back statues of the Muses as spoils from his Aetolian campaign. What
is the point of emphasis in Geo. 3.10-15 which justifies V.'s 'primus'
in the face of his acknowledged model, Ennius: I would say the
development from the potentially neutral or ambiguous 'patriam' to the
empatic *Mantua* and *Mincius*: a poetical triumph and temple not in
Rome but in Vergil's own birthplace.
On Sep 21, 11:18 pm, "Leofranc Holford-Strevens"
au...@gellius.demon.co.uk
Sep 22, 2009, 6:11:58 AM9/22/09
to mant...@googlegroups.com, au...@gellius.demon.co.uk
To adapt the famous account of 1871, 'Rom geht in Italien auf'. For Vergil, the Italian and not a Stadtrömer, this was surely something to celebrate (as in the verses you quote at the end); why should he have been sentimental about whatever a Roman of Rome might think had been lost? (If the Romans of Rome did regret it, we have no record of their saying so as we have of the political class's discontent at one-man rule; still, at the very least those few old enough to remember the Social War, the anti-Rome of Vitelliú, and the great deliverance at the Colline Gate may have felt a twinge.)
adria...@googlemail.com wrote:
>
> I think that I'd be at least partially satisfied to get to the point
> that the 'laus Italiae' at least engages with the Italy ~ Rome
> question. Beyond that, one is confronted with a similar problem to the
> 'pro-Augustan / anti-Augustan' question: the interpretative question
> being 'does V. raise such issues to problematize them or to resolve
> them (...or both...)?'.
>
> 'hinc Augustus agens Italos in proelia Caesar.' was a line which
> cropped up in a discussion before - it is, of course, how Octavian
> wanted Actium to be seen and corresponds with the description of the
> other side as exotic Easterners (against the known reality, of
> course). Is Vergil here settling the question, as it were, for
> Octavian's benefit, or encouraging the stated position to be probed?
> This is, of course, a description of an item commissioned by Venus,
> with her Roman partiality.
>
> Another related e.g. from the Georgics:
>
> primus ego in patriam mecum, modo uita supersit, =
> h
> > memories of ancient independence from Rome--or recent hostility': Syme, T=
> of
> > reconciliation, there must still have been Romans who were a little shock=
> > > parallels, even if neither Servius nor Macrobius says anything about it=
> > > > is a conscious distinction between Italy and Rome being emphasised, i=
> n
> > > > that a key part of the (unwilling?) 'buffer zone' protecting Rome fro=
adria...@googlemail.com wrote:
>
> I think that I'd be at least partially satisfied to get to the point
> that the 'laus Italiae' at least engages with the Italy ~ Rome
> question. Beyond that, one is confronted with a similar problem to the
> 'pro-Augustan / anti-Augustan' question: the interpretative question
> being 'does V. raise such issues to problematize them or to resolve
> them (...or both...)?'.
>
> 'hinc Augustus agens Italos in proelia Caesar.' was a line which
> cropped up in a discussion before - it is, of course, how Octavian
> wanted Actium to be seen and corresponds with the description of the
> other side as exotic Easterners (against the known reality, of
> course). Is Vergil here settling the question, as it were, for
> Octavian's benefit, or encouraging the stated position to be probed?
> This is, of course, a description of an item commissioned by Venus,
> with her Roman partiality.
>
> Another related e.g. from the Georgics:
>
> 10
> Aonio rediens deducam uertice Musas;
> primus Idumaeas referam tibi, Mantua, palmas,
> et uiridi in campo templum de marmore ponam
> propter aquam, tardis ingens ubi flexibus errat
> Mincius et tenera praetexit harundine ripas. =
> Aonio rediens deducam uertice Musas;
> primus Idumaeas referam tibi, Mantua, palmas,
> et uiridi in campo templum de marmore ponam
> propter aquam, tardis ingens ubi flexibus errat
> 15
>
> The background is again, surely, Ennius (cf. esp. Geo. 3.9 citing
> Ennius' epitaph and cf. Lucretius on Ennius bringing down the garland
> of the Muses from Helicon), and the particular point of engagement
> would seem to be with Ennius' patron's, Fulvius Nobilior's, dedication
> of the temple of Hercules Musarum at Rome (near the Campus Martius -
> cf. 'viridi in campo'? within a bend of the Tiber), having brought
> back statues of the Muses as spoils from his Aetolian campaign. What
> is the point of emphasis in Geo. 3.10-15 which justifies V.'s 'primus'
> in the face of his acknowledged model, Ennius: I would say the
> development from the potentially neutral or ambiguous 'patriam' to the
> empatic *Mantua* and *Mincius*: a poetical triumph and temple not in
> Rome but in Vergil's own birthplace.
>
>
> On Sep 21, 11:18 pm, "Leofranc Holford-Strevens"
> <au...@gellius.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > 'The North, unlike so many parts of Italy, had no history of its own, wit=
>
> The background is again, surely, Ennius (cf. esp. Geo. 3.9 citing
> Ennius' epitaph and cf. Lucretius on Ennius bringing down the garland
> of the Muses from Helicon), and the particular point of engagement
> would seem to be with Ennius' patron's, Fulvius Nobilior's, dedication
> of the temple of Hercules Musarum at Rome (near the Campus Martius -
> cf. 'viridi in campo'? within a bend of the Tiber), having brought
> back statues of the Muses as spoils from his Aetolian campaign. What
> is the point of emphasis in Geo. 3.10-15 which justifies V.'s 'primus'
> in the face of his acknowledged model, Ennius: I would say the
> development from the potentially neutral or ambiguous 'patriam' to the
> empatic *Mantua* and *Mincius*: a poetical triumph and temple not in
> Rome but in Vergil's own birthplace.
>
>
> On Sep 21, 11:18 pm, "Leofranc Holford-Strevens"
> <au...@gellius.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> h
> > memories of ancient independence from Rome--or recent hostility': Syme, T=
> he
> > Roman Revolution, 465, with reference to Vergil's Mantua and Livy's
> > Patavium. Et paulo post
> >
> > 'But all these diverse loyalties, as was fitting in a colonial frontier
> > zone, were transcended in a common national devotion to Rome. Further, as
> > might be expected of a region that had only recenty become a part of Ital=
> > Roman Revolution, 465, with reference to Vergil's Mantua and Livy's
> > Patavium. Et paulo post
> >
> > 'But all these diverse loyalties, as was fitting in a colonial frontier
> > zone, were transcended in a common national devotion to Rome. Further, as
> y,
> > the name 'Italian' bore a heavier emphasis and a fuller emotional content
> > than elsewhere. For all the talk of a united Italy and all the realities =
> > the name 'Italian' bore a heavier emphasis and a fuller emotional content
> of
> > reconciliation, there must still have been Romans who were a little shock=
> ed
> > at hearing tyhe army of the Roman people described as 'Italans':
> >
> > hinc Augustus agens Italos in proelia Caesar.
> >
> > August was singularly fortunate in discovering for his epic poet of Italy=
> > at hearing tyhe army of the Roman people described as 'Italans':
> >
> > hinc Augustus agens Italos in proelia Caesar.
> >
> a
> > man whose verse and sentimens harmonized so easily with his own ideas and
> > policy. Here was his _tota Italia_, spontaneous and admirable. To Virgil =
> > man whose verse and sentimens harmonized so easily with his own ideas and
> the
> > Transpadane, Actium is the victory of Italy, not of Rome only. This
> > conception does not find expression in the versions of Horace and
> > Propertius.' (Ibid. 465-6.)
> >
> > As to Ennius, don't forget 'Marsa manus, Paeligna cohors, Vestina virum v=
> > Transpadane, Actium is the victory of Italy, not of Rome only. This
> > conception does not find expression in the versions of Horace and
> > Propertius.' (Ibid. 465-6.)
> >
> is'
> > (229 Skutsch; unattributed, but whose else could it be?), as eloquent a
> > tribute to the Italian part in Rome's rise as anything in Old Cato. But t=
> > (229 Skutsch; unattributed, but whose else could it be?), as eloquent a
> he
> > Paeligni had memories of recent hostility--'quos sua libertas ad honesta
> > coegerat arma', as Ovid was to say. (Is that verse inscribed on any
> > Confederate war memorials, I wonder?). they may stand for a contrast with
> > the Transpadanes.
> >
> > Leofranc Holford-Strevens
> > 67 St Bernard's Road
> > Oxford
> > usque adeone
> > OX2 6EJ scire MEVM nihil est,=
> > Paeligni had memories of recent hostility--'quos sua libertas ad honesta
> > coegerat arma', as Ovid was to say. (Is that verse inscribed on any
> > Confederate war memorials, I wonder?). they may stand for a contrast with
> > the Transpadanes.
> >
> > Leofranc Holford-Strevens
> > 67 St Bernard's Road
> > Oxford
> > usque adeone
> ,
> > > and Romanis arcibus would fit nicely enough in an Ennian hexameter, but
> > > there;'s nothing archaic or un-Vergilian about it, least of all at the =
> > > and Romanis arcibus would fit nicely enough in an Ennian hexameter, but
> n
> > > > that a key part of the (unwilling?) 'buffer zone' protecting Rome fro=
> m
> > > > the likes of Hannibal, in particular, is the enfranchisement/annexure
> > > > of Cisalpine Gaul (i.e. Hannibal's route 'Alpis... apertas') - see
> > > > especially the references to lakes Larius and Benacus at Geo.
> > > > 2.159-60.
> >
> > > > [1] I flirted with the possible suggestion of a line e.g. "re*bellem*
> > > > avertis Romanis arcibus Gallum" (cf. Aen. 6.858), but I think that
> > > > Hannibal is the more likely original subject.
> > > > [2] Leofranc will be able to say (far) better than me whether Geo.
> > > > 2.172 has an Ennian feel to it - "Romanis" is a molossus with a word
> > > > break at the end of the fourth foot, thus archaic, I venture?
> > > > adjective + noun ("Romanis arcibus") immediately together is Ennian?
> > > > Vahlen already had conjectured that Aen. 10.12 derived from Book 8 of
> > > > the Annales on Hannibal. I think the passages I have cited might poin=
> > > > the likes of Hannibal, in particular, is the enfranchisement/annexure
> > > > of Cisalpine Gaul (i.e. Hannibal's route 'Alpis... apertas') - see
> > > > especially the references to lakes Larius and Benacus at Geo.
> > > > 2.159-60.
> >
> > > > [1] I flirted with the possible suggestion of a line e.g. "re*bellem*
> > > > avertis Romanis arcibus Gallum" (cf. Aen. 6.858), but I think that
> > > > Hannibal is the more likely original subject.
> > > > [2] Leofranc will be able to say (far) better than me whether Geo.
> > > > 2.172 has an Ennian feel to it - "Romanis" is a molossus with a word
> > > > break at the end of the fourth foot, thus archaic, I venture?
> > > > adjective + noun ("Romanis arcibus") immediately together is Ennian?
> > > > Vahlen already had conjectured that Aen. 10.12 derived from Book 8 of
> t
> > > > rather towards the beginning of the Annales.
> >
> > > > On Sep 20, 9:54Â am, falmouth <adrianj...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > > > One can only really take the "imbellem" as resultative if there had
> > > > > ever been any suggestion that an 'Indus' was bellicose or a threat =
> > > > rather towards the beginning of the Annales.
> >
> > > > On Sep 20, 9:54Â am, falmouth <adrianj...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > > > One can only really take the "imbellem" as resultative if there had
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