One thing that I have not been able to tie down is whether the
physical codex in which these poems were said to have been found
actually made its way to Aldus (if indeed there ever was one) or
whether the alleged forger sent transcriptions or indeed whether the
whole hoax originated with Aldus himself. Or whether any of that is
discoverable at all...
On Oct 21, 3:30 pm, au...@gellius.demon.co.uk wrote:
> The rule prescribes Berenicaeus, but since Berenikaios is not found in Greek and Berenikeios is, even in the very poem that Catullus was translating, and since ai and ei are musch less likely to be correupted into each other at any stage of the Greek language than -aeus and -eus after the classical period, we may be confident that he wrote Bereniceo. And so would Gallus; but even if he were the author of this piece, that would not stop its being corrupted to Beronicaeus; the o indicates ignorance on the part of the transmitter, forger or no.
>
>
>
> adrianj...@googlemail.com wrote:
>
> > I see (... I think...)
>
> > So according to Housman's rule - although not formulated as an exact
> > one - one would *expect* in Callimachus (or another Greek poet)
>
> > Βεà ÎµÎ½Î¹ÎºÎ±Î¹Î¿à ‚ which wo=
> > uld be most readily rendered in classical Latin
> > Berenicaeus
>
> > But what one *has* in Callimachus is
>
> > Βεà ÎµÎ½Î¹ÎºÎµÎ¹Î¿à ‚, which w=
> > ould be most readily rendered in classical Latin
> > Bereniceus?
>
> > On Oct 21, 2:25Â pm, au...@gellius.demon.co.uk wrote:
> > > Housman's rule is that all second- and third-declension nouns make -eus, =
> > as do first-declension masculines, which have -eios in Greek except in Aeol=
> > ic; first-declension feminines make -aeus. However, as he admits some -eios=
> > spellings exist, and Berenikeios is one of them; Callimachus wrote kai Ber=
> > enikeios kalos egw plokamos. But Renaissance editors are all over the place=
> > , and their successors often blindly follow them; Phrixeus, the adjective d=
> > erived from Phrixus, often appears as Phryxaeus, with hyper-correct (i.e. w=
> > ould-be correct but wrong) y as well as ae.
>
> > > adrianj...@googlemail.com wrote:
>
> > > > Thanks, Leofranc. Without detracting from the caveat re the
> > > > transmission of orthography, coming at it cold, as it were, would one
> > > > expect a 1st-cent BC poet to have rendered Βε=
> > à εν=
> > > > ικειοà â=
> > €š as 'Bereniceus'
> > > > or 'Berenicaeus' - or are either possibilities and, if so, is there
> > > > any difference in the likelihoods (or the underlying principle). What
> > > > would Housman say?
>
> > > > On Oct 21, 12:21Â pm, au...@gellius.demon.co.uk wrote:
> > > > > Catullus will have written Bereniceo. He could not possibly have brou=
> > ght =
> > > > Verona, with initial w and long e and o, into the matter; but the o, as=
> > in =
> > > > Ptolom(a)eus, because standard in later Latin (so that once both Greek =
> > B an=
> > > > d Latin V consonant had the same sound the Western church could invent =
> > St V=
> > > > eronica). As to eus and aeus, few scholars before Housman know, and non=
> > e st=
> > > > ated, which should be used where. However, since neother scholars nor p=
> > rint=
> > > > ers in the sixteenth century gelt obliged to respect the orthography of=
> > the=
> > > > ir source, I don't care to rest any argument for authorship upon the er=
> > rors=
> > > > ..
>
> > > > > But why worry about Catullus when the esuriens Graecus so obviously c=
> > omes=
> > > > Â rom Juvenal?
>
> > > > > adrianj...@googlemail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > > E Beronicaeo detonsum vertice crinem
> > > > > > Â  Retulit esuriens Graecus in astra Conon:
>
> > > > > > Here, I think there is a textual question of some significance.
> > > > > > Whether [Gallus] is a forger or genuine, these lines would have bee=
> > n
> > > > > > influenced by Cat. 66, lines 7-8 in particular.
>
> > > > > > idem me ille Conon caelesti in limine uidit
> > > > > > e Beroniceo uertice caesariem
> > > > > > (Cat. 66.7-8)
>
> > > > > > It is my understanding that all manuscripts available before the fi=
> > rst
> > > > > > printed editions of Catullus were corrupt here, reading
>
> > > > > > idem me ille Conon caelesti in limine uidit
> > > > > > ebore niceo uertice caesariem
> > > > > > (Cat. 66.7-8)
>
> > > > > > "ebore niceo" was first deciphered as "e beroniceo", I understand, =
> > in
> > > > > > the 1480s or thereabouts. But the exact spelling was and, I think
> > > > > > remains, a matter of conjecture. The only further enlightenment tha=
> > t
> > > > > > we have is the discovery of Fr. 110 of Callimachus' Aetia where at
> > > > > > lines 61-2 the epithet ÂåñÃ=
> > ƒÂ¥ÃƒÂÂéêå=
> > > > éïò appears.
>
> > > > > > öáåóéÃ=
> >  Ã¥Ã Ã°Ã¯Ã«Ã=
> > =
> > > > ¥Ã¥Ã³Ã³Ã©Ã Ã=
> > ƒÂ¡ÃƒÂ±ÃƒÂ©ÃƒÂ¨ÃƒÂ¬ÃƒÂ©Ãƒ=
> > =
> > > > ¯=
> > > > > > ò áëë[á
> > > > > >   ÃªÃ¡Ã© Â=
> > åñåÃÂÂéêÃ=
> > Æ’=
> > > > ¥Ã©Ã¯Ã² êáÃ=
> > ƒÂ«ÃƒÂ¯ÃƒÂ² åãù Ã=
> > Æ’=
> > > > °=
> > > > > > ëïêáìÃ=
> > ¯Ã²
>
> > > > > > There are, it seems to me, three points re "Beronicaeo" at AL 916.7
> > > > > > (this being the original reading so far as I can discern)
> > > > > > (i) Â whoever the poet/forger, he is not working from a corrup=
> > > > > > rendering of 'Âåñå=
> > ÃÂÂéêåéÃ=
> > > > ¯Ã²', this would point towards =