Debate Comments for Manistee Paper

[johnm...@gmail.com]

Manistee County Democrats:

 

I was asked by the Manistee News Advocate to make a comment about last night’s debate.  The comment I submitted below will be printed in tomorrow’s paper. 

 

Over 50 proud Democrats gathered together at the River Street office to watch what had been promoted as a debate between the two candidates for President of the United States.  Instead of a debate we experienced one candidate who reprised his long-practiced inflammatory rally rhetoric and essentially refused to answer questions from the moderators opting instead to go off on his own tangents to reinforce his litany of lies and misinformation.  Fact checkers and spin doctors will be busy well into the wee hours of the morning, but for many of that candidate's supporters his blatant lies and bluster are what they apparently desire for a man looking to earn our trust as leader of the free world.    

 

Granted, many of us supporting the incumbent candidate were disappointed in his on-camera performance in this debate.  We wanted him to be more strident, to attack and demand the truth from his debate opponent.  He certainly tried to make that happen, but he was confronted with a man whose lack of moral character relating to the truth made it virtually impossible. We take comfort knowing that our current President and his competent administration are working hard every day for all American citizens and will be well positioned to continue to make progress when re-elected in November. 

 

We need to increase our efforts to prevent a convicted felon and fraudster from getting elected in November.  Joe may be old, but he is wise and of high moral character.  He will put a strong administration in place to work for the benefit of all Americans.  The alternative will put Project 2025 in place and destroy our current democratic way of life replacing it with a theocratic autocracy that puts all the power of the Federal government in the Executive Branch. 

 

 

	John M. Helge
	616-915-2403 Johnm...@gmail.com 450 Cedar St Manistee, MI 49660

 

 

[Paul DuFresne]

Well done. I would have been unable to include a comment about this being the first time in our nation’s long history that a convicted felon has been at the head of a political party. 

Paul Du Fresne

On Jun 28, 2024, at 1:21 PM, johnm...@gmail.com wrote:



<image001.jpg>

John M. Helge

	616-915-2403 Johnm...@gmail.com 450 Cedar St Manistee, MI 49660

 

 

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[pat]

Thank you, John.

Your message will be disseminated far and wide.

Patrick Murphy

Candidate for Onekama Township Trustee

www.patrickdmurphy.com

---- On Fri, 28 Jun 2024 10:25:02 -0700 'Paul DuFresne' via Manistee Dems <manist...@googlegroups.com> wrote ---

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[Paul DuFresne]

Make that “ unable to not “

Paul Du Fresne

On Jun 28, 2024, at 1:32 PM, Paul DuFresne <pauldu...@netscape.net> wrote:

Well done. I would have been unable to include a comment about this being the first time in our nation’s long history that a convicted felon has been at the head of a political party. 

[Moj Email]

Would it be prudent to hand out 2025 pamphlets? Not sure if the parade would be an appropriate stage. But still…

Mjo

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 28, 2024, at 2:41 PM, 'Paul DuFresne' via Manistee Dems <manist...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Make that “ unable to not “

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/manisteedems/46E0B08D-1B2B-455C-BF17-1D4327A6A06C%40netscape.net.

[Tim Joseph]

Joe Biden is by far the younger man, by any criteria at all other than chronology (and then only four years).

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/manisteedems/46E0B08D-1B2B-455C-BF17-1D4327A6A06C%40netscape.net.

[Marty Spaulding]

I have a different concern.

And that is that we seem to be the only party that over-critiques ourselves, and the only one that plays by the rules.

Today I hear hand-wringing that if Joe Biden were to decide to step down, that we would "need" to automatically put Kamala Harris into that spot so we don't alienate a certain constituency. Is that the basis we should make that decision on if it happens ? 

The answer is no. 

We should put up the person best able to keep Donald Trump out of the White House. PERIOD. Whether that is Biden, Harris, or one of a dozen other names that I have heard ... we are RUNNING OUT OF TIME and right at this juncture we are in a world of shit.

Why all the tangential requisites ? Why are we rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic ? To get a better view ? 

Personally, I think last night was fatal to Bidens candidacy. He should be fifteen points ahead already. SIXTY MILLION PEOPLE saw that debate last night. The damage is done. This makes Kennedy/Nixon look like childs play. I was screaming at my TV in the first fifteen seconds.  

Do we want to emulate the GOP ? Because those voters refuse to put down the Kool Aid. The cult is in full swing. The Emperors gown is wonderful. Just ignore the issues and they disappear all by themselves.

It cost them both houses of Congress in '18, the White House in '20, and the "red wave" of '22 turned into a disaster ... including a Democratic trifecta here in Michigan.

Do we want to make that same mistake ? Do we want to refuse to switch horses and go down with the ship ?

If a Democrat had all the baggage that Trump has, we would have kicked them to the curb a long time ago. Hell, we tossed Howard Dean for simply being excited (  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv410MxoRrs ) 

I remember Al Franken resigning over decades old allegations from one person. Yet GOP member-after-member (especially Trump himself) have FAR worse transgressions, and the cult just looks the other way.

If we want to sit in our echo chamber and expect that somehow this is going to turn around, we might as well pack the tent now. 

There is too much on the line here to engage in wishful thinking. 

Just my two cents. 

We need an open convention. Joe Biden has served us well. He should release his delegates and not make an endorsement.

Let the Democrats in Chicago decide. 

On Fri, Jun 28, 2024 at 2:41 PM 'Paul DuFresne' via Manistee Dems <manist...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

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[Schindler]

I think Mary is correct.  Time for Dr. Jill Biden (maybe with help from Michelle and Barack Obama) to sit Joe down and tell him it is time to move on.

Do not get me wrong -- I will vote for Biden over Trump -- but the Democrats will need more than people such as me.  

Trump "won" the debate on the basis of emotions and showmanship, which is what con-artists are good at.  But Biden "won" on the basis of facts and presentation of policy.  (It helps to read the transcript to just get what was said without the distortion of the performance: https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/27/politics/read-biden-trump-debate-rush-transcript/index.html.)  Actually I do not think it was Biden that did particularly well, but "won" because Trump went back to his lies, misrepresentations and alternative universe and muting microphones actually made Trump look more polished.

 Unfortunately voters, people, make choices more on emotions.

----kurt

---

Kurt H. Schindler, FAICP
Pine Knolls

schi...@kaltelnet.net

231 VIking 8 4784

---

From: "Marty Spaulding" <martysp...@gmail.com>
To: "Paul DuFresne" <pauldu...@netscape.net>
Cc: johnm...@gmail.com, Manist...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2024 12:21:30 AM
Subject: Re: [ManisteeDems 8639] Debate Comments for Manistee Paper

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/manisteedems/CADNGjOu1tiefer9tb49XPWzUVaCu7Vjzc7E_s%3DcCTZMSW6jQ4g%40mail.gmail.com.

[K.P. Pelleran]

We know that Joe won the debates based on content, facts, and answering the debate questions, while his presentation was less than stellar.

Here’s something that might explain the shell shock.

 

K.P. Mahoney

Cell: 517-887-0580

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 28, 2024, at 2:41 PM, 'Paul DuFresne' via Manistee Dems <manist...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Make that “ unable to not “

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[ZIGMOND KOZICKI]

Joe had said he would run for one term. He should consider his role fulfilled. He was very effective. The next president has to work past Chevron ruling. Russia and China are preparing to grab more of the world. Climate change is real and a advancing threat. Violence already is a public health epidemic. Civil rights, women's and LGBT rights, as well as work place collective bargaining and safety is going to be dismantled. Money and privlege is going to corrupt American life unless we have a new President. Joe Biden has completed his term. He did well and it is time to elect a new leader. We must defeat MAGA before it becomes the fascist state. Trump is an would be dictator. 

Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail on Android

On Sat, Jun 29, 2024 at 8:57 AM, 'Schindler' via Manistee Dems

<manist...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

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.

[Sarah Stevenson]

Biden is without a doubt a decent man and experienced statesman, and we’re grateful for his steady hand especially during the pandemic. 

But we’re also in an extremely perilous moment in this country’s history (and in the world). We have MAGA grandmas casually calling for Trump to get rid of (a.k.a. execute) the “bad people”: migrants, Dems, liberals, non-White people, LGBTQ folx, atheists, mouthy women, etc. Trump himself talks about ridding the country of “undesirables.” (If you think I’m being dramatic, I’d ask you to watch a couple of interviews with rally attendees and hear it from the horses’ mouths. And then go back and read “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.”)

We also have Project 2025, their out in the open plan to dismantle the government as we know it, to the utter detriment of most of us. Just yesterday, SCOTUS smoothed the path for Project 2025 to become reality.

I’m vexed that the DNC and decision-makers in DC would allow our party to be in such a vulnerable place at such a dangerous moment. Biden’s campaign called for the debate early, which means this was also an unforced error. 

As Ziggy pointed out, one of Biden’s early 2020 campaign promises was to serve one term. It’s time for the folks running the show to stop re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic and downplaying what we all saw and heard. For God’s sake, I got no fewer than 7 fundraising texts from “Joe” and his surrogates yesterday, and not a single one acknowledged the reality of what happened on the debate stage. We MUST do better. Our lives and freedom depend on it.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/manisteedems/385E2717-84D6-4D7A-B47D-B4EFD8541F9C%40yahoo.com.

[ZIGMOND KOZICKI]

Hello Everyone, 

Biden is struggling to reach 50% voter support. His performance in the debate revealed that he is not the same person who ran for office four years ago. Sooner or later people in government life have to step out and become a former politician. I believe this is a time for Democrats to raise up the new leaders of the Democratic party. Joe has served America for over 50 years and I thank him for his service.  

Observation 

I am a psychologist at a Neuropsychology clinic in Saginaw. We test people who are not aware or won't admit they have a cognitive decline. The family usually asks us to complete a 7 hour cognitive testing to determine their cognitive ability. We could ask Joe to complete such an examination. Ask him to share the results. It is important to recall that Biden once nearly died of an aneurysm in 1988. This could be a contributing factor to his current cognitive status. 

By the way Donald took a screening test in 2018 given the Montreal Cognitive Assessment (MoCA) under Dr. Ronny Jackson, the former White House physician, and at the time had scored a perfect 30 out of 30. (My comment is consider the person giving the test as possibly a unsuitable tester. The MoCA test was created by Canadian neurologist Dr. Ziad Nasreddine. The test is 30 questions and designed to take 10 minutes. Questions include drawing a clock, copying a picture of a cube and identifying pictures of animals. This test proves that he was not psychotic during the interview.

Trump has demonstrated that he is a narcissist and sociopath and his appeal to his followers is a narcissistic symbiosis and shared psychosis. Narcissistic symbiosis refers to the developmental wounds that make the leader-follower relationship magnetically attractive. The leader, hungry for adulation to compensate for an inner lack of self-worth, projects grandiose omnipotence—while the followers, rendered needy by societal stress or developmental injury, yearn for a parental figure. When such wounded individuals are given positions of power, they arouse similar pathology in the population that creates a “lock and key” relationship (Lewis ,2021). 

Repeating that Joe is going to be a winning candidate because of what he has accomplished is trying to find an available heuristic to reduce anxiety. The Democratic Party not Joe Biden needs to raise up a candidate who will stop MAGA and save America from fascism. 

Lately this has made me think about why the Roman Empire disintegrated into the dark ages. Here are some of the reasons Rome ceased to be the Beacon on it's seven hills.  How does this compare to the American experience. 

The Roman Empire experienced:

"A string of military losses sustained against outside forces. Constant wars and overspending and oppressive taxation and inflation had widened the gap between rich and poor. Church leaders took an increased role in political affairs, further complicating governance.

The Romans were unable to communicate quickly or effectively enough to manage their holdings. Rome struggled to marshal enough troops and resources to defend its frontiers. Political rot extended to the Roman Senate, which failed to temper the excesses of the emperors due to its own widespread corruption and incompetence. As the situation worsened, civic pride waned and many Roman citizens lost trust in their leadership.

Unable to recruit enough soldiers from the Roman citizenry, emperors like Diocletian and Constantine began hiring foreign mercenaries to prop up their armies. The Barbarian attacks on Rome partially stemmed from a mass migration caused by the Huns’ invasion of Europe in the late fourth century. When these Eurasian warriors rampaged through northern Europe, they drove many Germanic tribes to the borders of the Roman Empire. The Romans grudgingly allowed members of the Visgoth tribe to cross south of the Danube and into the safety of Roman territory, but they treated them with extreme cruelty. According to the historian Ammianus Marcellinus, Roman officials even forced the starving Goths to trade their children into slavery in exchange for dog meat. In brutalizing the Goths, the Romans created a dangerous enemy within their own borders. When the oppression became too much to bear, the Goths rose up in revolt and eventually routed a Roman army and killed the Eastern Emperor Valens." (Andrews, 2023).  

We can learn from history. 

Ziggy Kozicki, DHA, MSA, MA, LLP 

989-450-1451

zigp...@sbcglobal.net
kozi...@udmercy.edu
Kozi...@cmich.edu

 

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world."
- Mohandas K. Gandhi

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.

[Jon Showalter]

 I enjoyed your observations and the history lesson.  However we have political realities that can not be ignored: 

Joe doesn't want to step down.  Few in his inner circle would suggest it.

No challenge at convention would be successful as delegates are committed on the first ballot.

If Joe steps down, Kamala would be the presumptive replacement, however, she would face strong challenges in convention (unless human nature changes) where there has not been a brokered convention in many decades.    Kennedy ran against Carter in the primaries  in '80 and lost.  The convention was pretty ugly. Carter was wounded and lost to Reagan.   First incumbent to lose since Hoover.  Kamala would emerge with the nomination but weakened in her own party.  By supporters of those who lost and supporters of Kamala who would take her being challenged...personally?

Kamala polls worse than Joe.  Down at least 6% in most polls.

Sigh.

We all just gotta lean into the work that must be done.  

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/manisteedems/2109206039.6514126.1719718515158%40mail.yahoo.com.

[Dan Gilligan]

Marty makes a lot of good points.  It truly appears that, as difficult as it would be, we must endure the upheaval of an open convention, and get past the primary system that has served us poorly.  If he really wants to serve the country and preserve our democracy, President Biden should now swallow a bitter pill and step aside.

---

From: 'Schindler' via Manistee Dems <manist...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2024 8:54 AM
To: Marty Spaulding <martysp...@gmail.com>
Cc: Paul DuFresne <pauldu...@netscape.net>; johnm...@gmail.com <johnm...@gmail.com>; Manist...@googlegroups.com <Manist...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [ManisteeDems 8644] Debate Comments for Manistee Paper

 

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[ZIGMOND KOZICKI]

Democrats are not a cult of personality. We are a diverse people willing to pull together for the good of our country. We have policy and in depth plans to do things for America. The change of leadership is always possible because we have a deep bench and work together for the good of the country. Unlike the republicans we are not deconstructing democracy and support law and order and work with the administrative agencies and courts to promote civil rights and social justice. If Joe Biden is not our next leader the person who replaces him will give Americans a good effort. The time has come to confront MAGA and shove them back into the shadows where they can hide again. 

Ziggy Kozicki, DHA, MSA, MA, LLP 

989-450-1451

zigp...@sbcglobal.net
kozi...@udmercy.edu
Kozi...@cmich.edu

 

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world."
- Mohandas K. Gandhi

P Think Green!   Before printing this e-mail ask the question, is it necessary?  

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[Eric Lampinen]

Before you decide we should abandon Biden, take a few minutes to watch this from the one person who has  correctly predicted 9 of the past 10 elections.
https://youtu.be/F-59aHb1OV8?si=tWCYhKK_UuA12yff

Eric Lampinen
3109 Orchard Hwy
Manistee, MI 49660
231-690-5542
Vote your heart, not your hate.
   

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/manisteedems/373405376.6639281.1719802442270%40mail.yahoo.com.

[Marty Spaulding]

I don't see this as "abandoning Biden".

I see this as a necessary step to not abandon democracy.

The margins were already razor thin.

They are now rapidly heading the other way.

Did we watch the same debate ? I was screaming at my TV in the first 90 seconds.

Six percentage points in six battleground states is all it takes to tip this election (and our future) either direction.

We need a new, vibrant, energetic, YOUNG, candidate.

Joe needs to put his ego and pride aside. 

Soon. 

[Marty Spaulding]

My two cents:

Buttigieg- Harris 

[Eric Lampinen]

Sorry, if that link didn't work, Here's the correct link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt8eRZTas_Q&t=105s

Eric Lampinen

3109 Orchard Hwy

Manistee, MI 49660

PH: 231.690.5542

Vote your heart, not your hate.

https://tinyurl.com/xbsxpe35

 

Sender notified by Mailtrack

07/01/24, 12:14:15 AM

[David Berns]

Biden should not be forced out.  He has done a great job and deserves to leave office with dignity and respect.  I trust that Biden will look strategically and do the right thing.  I would not think less of him or of his legacy if he decides the best thing he can to for the country is to make Harris the incumbent president prior to the convention. She needs a chance to shine and to demonstrate her leadership before any votes are cast.  Incumbents have an edge in elections and I hope she gets to use that edge.  If we really love another candidate, we should get behind that person as a great option for vice president.

 

Harris  also would have access to a couple billion dollars in Biden/Harris campaign funds that other candidates could not use.  And as president even for just a few months, she would also get free exposure to all the national and international media.  

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/manisteedems/CAEiuOv7-KdukyEHpiYxpjJJxoTErWDR9Hsp66M6%3DnHx0MRB8uw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Marty Spaulding]

Harris will not beat Trump. She was out fairly early in the '20 primaries. She didn't win a single one.

She can remain as VP and the team can still access that money.

I think we are debating on an echo chamber here.

Take this discussion to a local diner or anywhere else.

This race is going to be over before it even starts of we don't make changes. 

Soon.

I gotta be honest. Joe shouldn't have run again to begin with.

Being the "I'm not Hitler" guy isn't going to win this election.

We have apathetic and anemic support from so many different constituencies, that this feels like Dukakis 2.0

[Mark Ward]

I can’t believe the lack of support for Bidon because of a debate. Where were you all six months ago when all your negativity might have done some good?  It’s too late now, all you’re doing is undermining his campaign,  and besides, no other potential candidates are polling any better than Biden, as reported here:   https://share.newsbreak.com/7jis6owo?s=i16

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 1, 2024, at 1:07 AM, Marty Spaulding <martysp...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Tim Joseph]

gee, thanks for the commercial, Eric.  Try again?

On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 12:05 AM Eric Lampinen <lampi...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[JO HALL]

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 1, 2024, at 12:16 AM, Eric Lampinen <lampi...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[JO HALL]

1. I believe Biden has done a good job.

2. We, the people, nominated him in the Primary.

3. It is extremely difficult to change the results of the primary at the convention. 

Remember we voted for him.

4. I have had poor performances in the past or said things I wish I could talk back. At least Biden acknowledged his poor performance and is asking us to help him move forward.

5.  We can be grateful to have had this opportunity to have a discussion and debate, but if we want to move forward it is my feeling we bond together to defeat Trump.

6. I believe the path forward is to support Biden. 

Thanks for letting me share my thoughts.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 1, 2024, at 11:05 AM, JO HALL <jo....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:



[Marty Spaulding]

This isnt negativity. It is pragmatism.

There was no serious primary opposition. Most likely candidates were either in his administration or just reelected to the seats they held.

Biden has been taking on water since the start. I heard a report yesterday that a CBS (?) poll showed him losing *another* 8 points on the question as to whether he was capable of going another 4 years.

This is going to become a discussion about whether Kamala Harris is preferable to Trump. And that is a legitimate discussion to have. Joe Biden is at or near life expectancy for an American male.

And she isnt going to score well with the six percent in the six states that will decide this election.

This isn't as simple as staying the course. Both candidates are highly flawed. And after today's SCOTUS ruling, any chance of more convictions appear to be gone.

Stand by your Man might have worked for Tammy Wynette, but we're volunteering to sail into a storm with our bilge pumps turned off.

"He's still better than Trump" isn't going to drive voters to the polls. 

[K.P. Pelleran]

I’m with Jo Hall; I’m Ridin’ with Biden! All I can say is we all have to run hard with and for the Dem ticket. Time to get out sneakers on; time to get on the phones and pluck up some great yard sign locations; time to go door-to-door.

I’m proudly carrying Biden-Harris lit with my own! My campaign had been on the doors in Manistee, Whitehall, and Montague. We plan to get to all cities BEFORE the Primary, and we don’t have any Primary opposition! 

Let’s do what Dems do and get out there! It’s time to buck up!

K.P. Mahoney

candidate for 102nd HD

Cell: 517-887-0580

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 1, 2024, at 11:26 AM, JO HALL <jo....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

1. I believe Biden has done a good job.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/manisteedems/936B86C9-B5DD-4AEB-B652-EF9DC5B1C4C5%40sbcglobal.net.

[Judy Cunningham]

Well said, I agree.  It was clear he was ill. He looked tired and his voice was hoarse. These circumstances aggravated his stammer.  He is still a capable leader who should not be thrown over for a number - like years.  He is fit and sharp, experienced and has passed more important legislation than anyone in the last 40 years.  



Personally, I think last night was fatal to Bidens candidacy. He should be fifteen points aheadalready. SIXTY MILLION PEOPLE saw that debate last night. The damage is done. This makes Kennedy/Nixon look like childs play. I was screaming at my TV in the first fifteen seconds.  

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/manisteedems/936B86C9-B5DD-4AEB-B652-EF9DC5B1C4C5%40sbcglobal.net.

[Dan Gilligan]

If the event were judged based on formal rules of debate, we might be able to conclude that Biden won the debate, on the basis that many of Trump's responses would be disqualified based on obvious lies and refusal to actually answer the moderators' questions.

However, this event, unfortunately, will be judged on the resulting poll numbers and likely strengthened position of candidate Trump.  I could not get over the impression that Biden practically imploded on stage, while in comparison Trump emerged looking like a gifted orator (along the lines of Adolf Hitler).

---

From: 'K.P. Pelleran' via Manistee Dems <manist...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2024 9:00 AM
To: Paul DuFresne <pauldu...@netscape.net>
Cc: johnm...@gmail.com <johnm...@gmail.com>; Manist...@googlegroups.com <Manist...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [ManisteeDems 8645] Debate Comments for Manistee Paper

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/manisteedems/385E2717-84D6-4D7A-B47D-B4EFD8541F9C%40yahoo.com.

[Jean Capper]

The Republicans got what they wanted from the debate.  Focus on feeble Biden, divide the democrats....

We need to support the Biden Harris ticket and get him reelected.

Otherwise, we play into the hands of Trump et al.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/manisteedems/CADNGjOt6jM5qrmGL27aKRBtrQ232dPrD8mKGBfo7MqOC7kwF3g%40mail.gmail.com.

[Schindler]

If one is going to say Biden should drop out of the race -- before saying that -- need to have an answer with widespread agreement to the answer to this question:

Who, if anyone could plausibly replace Joe Biden?

(I do not know if the Economist will let non-subscribers view one/few articles or not.  But incase you can here is the link:

https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2024/06/29/who-could-plausibly-replace-joe-biden )

---

Kurt H. Schindler, FAICP
Pine Knolls

schi...@kaltelnet.net

231 VIking 8 4784

---

From: "'Jean Capper' via Manistee Dems" <manist...@googlegroups.com>
To: "Mark Ward" <wmic...@gmail.com>, "Marty Spaulding" <martysp...@gmail.com>
Cc: "David Berns" <dber...@gmail.com>, "Eric Lampinen" <lampi...@gmail.com>, "John Helge" <johnm...@gmail.com>, "Manistee Dems" <manist...@googlegroups.com>, "Paul DuFresne" <pauldu...@netscape.net>, "schindler" <schi...@kaltelnet.net>, trido...@hotmail.com, zigp...@sbcglobal.net
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 11:55:23 AM
Subject: Re: [ManisteeDems 8672] Debate Comments for Manistee Paper

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/manisteedems/1824282000.3518807.1719849323946%40mail.yahoo.com.

[Schindler]

Politics Girl makes some very good and strong points:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1vMJJyZBow 

---

Kurt H. Schindler, FAICP
Pine Knolls

schi...@kaltelnet.net

231 VIking 8 4784

---

From: "'Schindler' via Manistee Dems" <manist...@googlegroups.com>

To: "Jean Capper" <jmc...@aol.com>
Cc: "Mark Ward" <wmic...@gmail.com>, "Marty Spaulding" <martysp...@gmail.com>, "David Berns" <dber...@gmail.com>, "Eric Lampinen" <lampi...@gmail.com>, "John Helge" <johnm...@gmail.com>, "Manistee Dems" <manist...@googlegroups.com>, "Paul DuFresne" <pauldu...@netscape.net>, trido...@hotmail.com, zigp...@sbcglobal.net
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 5:40:38 PM
Subject: Re: [ManisteeDems 8676] Debate Comments for Manistee Paper

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/manisteedems/950299865.95067.1719870038814.JavaMail.zimbra%40kaltelnet.net.

[Schindler]

And here is a second one, on the Court's Immunity ruling;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJtQiAx5Pcw 

---

Kurt H. Schindler, FAICP
Pine Knolls

schi...@kaltelnet.net

231 VIking 8 4784

---

From: "Schindler" <schi...@kaltelnet.net>
To: "Schindler" <schi...@kaltelnet.net>
Cc: "Jean Capper" <jmc...@aol.com>, "Mark Ward" <wmic...@gmail.com>, "Marty Spaulding" <martysp...@gmail.com>, "David Berns" <dber...@gmail.com>, "Eric Lampinen" <lampi...@gmail.com>, "John Helge" <johnm...@gmail.com>, "Manistee Dems" <manist...@googlegroups.com>, "Paul DuFresne" <pauldu...@netscape.net>, trido...@hotmail.com, zigp...@sbcglobal.net
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 7:43:31 PM

[Marty Spaulding]

I think all of the prognostication is pointless, because this is a very unique situation.

We've never had this combination of a politician so corrupt, and sooooo many people simply accepting him and looking the other way. The emperor has a wonderful robe. Can't you see it ? 

We also have never had 60 Million people watching, expecting Joe Biden to wipe the floor with him, only to see *exactly* what the crackpots were claiming, manifest itself for everyone to see. The "I told you so" was probably on twenty million lips in the first 90 seconds. 

Anyone that thinks they can estimate how this will play out with either Biden or a surrogate running against Don the Con is speculating.

The entire thing is a crapshoot. 

There is no model. No algorithm. 

Just a gamble of the future of this country. 

All I know for certain is that "if" there is a change to be made, it needs to happen before the convention. After a second poor debate performance (should that happen), it will be too late. 

[Jenn Kirchinger]

A “what if” question: If Joe were to drop out who would get the nod? Kamala’s approval rating is not good. Who could possibly be a “good” candidate? And why? 

Jennifer L. Kirchinger

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/manisteedems/CADNGjOudoQpckeTWG1V0112Wz0RheeK9%2Bx0HSMovVOjPUv5pCQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Marty Spaulding]

Just my two cents....

I think Harris should stay in the VP seat if there is a switch. 

The names that make the most sense to me are:

First tier: Pete Buttigieg, Josh Shapiro, Mitch Landrieu. Andy Beshear. They're all fairly centrist. And Beshear is a southerner for bonus points.

Second tier: Gretchen Whitmer, Gavin Newsom

[Jenn Kirchinger]

Interesting list.

Jennifer L. Kirchinger

[Marty Spaulding]

If I was going to dabble in fantasy, the ticket would be

Michelle Obama / Pete Buttigieg-

I'd love to see her kick DT around a stage in debate.

[Dan Gilligan]

Amy Klobuchar/Pete Buttigieg

---

From: Marty Spaulding <martysp...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2024 12:47 AM
To: Jenn Kirchinger <219...@gmail.com>
Cc: David Berns <dber...@gmail.com>; Eric Lampinen <lampi...@gmail.com>; Jean Capper <jmc...@aol.com>; John Helge <johnm...@gmail.com>; Manistee Dems <manist...@googlegroups.com>; Mark Ward <wmic...@gmail.com>; Paul DuFresne <pauldu...@netscape.net>; Schindler <schi...@kaltelnet.net>; trido...@hotmail.com <trido...@hotmail.com>; zigp...@sbcglobal.net <zigp...@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [ManisteeDems 8681] Debate Comments for Manistee Paper

 

[Rick]

Unfortunately, this is not a new discussion.  For at least two years we have known 1) Democratic voters are grateful to Biden for defeating Trump and then having a productive term, and 2) Democratic voters have consistently said they did not want Biden to run again.  It was easy for Biden to win the primaries anyway when any real alternative was pressured to stay out of the race.  The debate has not changed any attitudes, it just reinforced them.  What was predicted two years ago has come to pass. Unfortunately, party leadership would not listen to their grassroots.   It is difficult to see how we dig out of this mess.  

[Ed Kriskywicz]

With all respect, thank you Joe Biden for all your accomplishments, HOWEVER we are in a must WIN situation here right now and need a ticket that will win and prevail over DJT.

The country is at risk. My thoughts are leaning towards;

Michelle Obama / Pete Buttigieg

Not sure what we can do, e.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/manisteedems/4e83fd73-bd66-4d90-b55b-9b9c5872292an%40googlegroups.com.

--

office: 387 river street, manistee mi 49660

shop: 100 washington street, manistee mi 49660

231.723.9552 office

231.794.8180 mobile

cdihomedesigns.com

[Schindler]

Hum.

Barack Obama can not run again -- but he could be vice president . . . .

---

Kurt H. Schindler, FAICP
Pine Knolls

schi...@kaltelnet.net

231 VIking 8 4784

---

From: "Ed Kriskywicz" <e...@cdihomedesigns.com>
To: "Rick" <wild...@gmail.com>
Cc: "Manistee Dems" <manist...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2024 1:15:13 PM
Subject: Re: [ManisteeDems 8690] Debate Comments for Manistee Paper

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/manisteedems/CAFReaKye0gRvLTWK-6AXOLUvq_x2ZL%3DMf132fHCALc-Lq18BZg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Tim Joseph]

We can all have our opinions about who should be the Democratic Party candidate for president but none of us, or the Manistee Dems as a whole have the teensiest, tiniest bit of control or influence on who the candidate will be, and at present, Joe Biden is our candidate.  Our job is to get as many votes for him in Manistee County as we possibly can.  Everything else we do is just self-entertainment at this point. Let's take a deep breath and put on our work shoes.  Tim Joseph

On Fri, Jun 28, 2024 at 1:21 PM <johnm...@gmail.com> wrote:

Manistee County Democrats:

 

I was asked by the Manistee News Advocate to make a comment about last night’s debate.  The comment I submitted below will be printed in tomorrow’s paper. 

 

Over 50 proud Democrats gathered together at the River Street office to watch what had been promoted as a debate between the two candidates for President of the United States.  Instead of a debate we experienced one candidate who reprised his long-practiced inflammatory rally rhetoric and essentially refused to answer questions from the moderators opting instead to go off on his own tangents to reinforce his litany of lies and misinformation.  Fact checkers and spin doctors will be busy well into the wee hours of the morning, but for many of that candidate's supporters his blatant lies and bluster are what they apparently desire for a man looking to earn our trust as leader of the free world.    

 

Granted, many of us supporting the incumbent candidate were disappointed in his on-camera performance in this debate.  We wanted him to be more strident, to attack and demand the truth from his debate opponent.  He certainly tried to make that happen, but he was confronted with a man whose lack of moral character relating to the truth made it virtually impossible. We take comfort knowing that our current President and his competent administration are working hard every day for all American citizens and will be well positioned to continue to make progress when re-elected in November. 

 

We need to increase our efforts to prevent a convicted felon and fraudster from getting elected in November.  Joe may be old, but he is wise and of high moral character.  He will put a strong administration in place to work for the benefit of all Americans.  The alternative will put Project 2025 in place and destroy our current democratic way of life replacing it with a theocratic autocracy that puts all the power of the Federal government in the Executive Branch. 

 

 

John M. Helge

	616-915-2403 Johnm...@gmail.com 450 Cedar St Manistee, MI 49660

[Howard Gimpel]

After the dust settles we'll see tRump hasn't gathered any new votes, and his flailing around in civil and criminal courts loses the GOP a percentage point or two of their usual support.  Tim is right: pull up our big boy pants and GOTV.

However... escaping into fantasyland about an open convention and a Buttegieg - Shapiro ticket is so damn entertaining.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/manisteedems/CADswgWGcEjkTcGdVBDpvWt6mX7pP1-730bAaFmhTRUe0afspWA%40mail.gmail.com.

[John Helge]

Thank you, Tim!  Let’s start by marching proudly down River Street in the parade tomorrow with Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel !  Meet up at the intersection of Division and Clay streets near the Wahr Hardware building tomorrow between 9:30 and 10am!

Get Outlook for iOS

---

From: Tim Joseph <tjose...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2024 7:23:26 AM
To: johnm...@gmail.com <johnm...@gmail.com>
Cc: Manist...@googlegroups.com <Manist...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [ManisteeDems 8633] Debate Comments for Manistee Paper