Baltoro Glacier
Tiziana
This summer, I have been selected to join Mike Horn on his Pangaea-
Expedition. From 2008 to 2012 he takes young people from every
continent to the most beautiful places in the world. I was one of the
lucky ones who went to Pakistan with him. We are a group of 8
youngsters, and during our expedition we spent 3 weeks on the Baltoro
Glacier. We climbed an unnamed 6000m peak and had several clean-ups
around the camps.
Now we started our own project. Every year, many hundred people are on
this glacier, it is surrounded by some of the highest mountains of
this planet, K2, the Gasherbrum-group, Broad Peak, and many more... In
the camps beside the glacier, there are toilets. But after Urdokas-
Camp, all the camps are ON the glacier, and there are no toilets.
Our idea was, to bring light toilet constructions to the camps at the
beginning of the Expedition-season, dry the feces there and then carry
it down to the villages and use it as fertilizer.
But we don't know how to dry it. What would be the best way? I would
appreciate every advise.
Thank you very much!
kar...@susan-design.org
climbing - dig it in the ground in the valley and the fertilizer content
will be released when the bio degradable bag degrades. Clean and
inexpensive.
Will be available very soon - www.peepoople.com for more information
Best regards,
Karsten Gjefle
Sustainable Sanitation Design
Roger Robinson
Roger Robinson
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Dawa S Sherpa
Here are some thoughts.
Using Poo bags like Karsten suggested are convenient and easy, and it can be each climbers own responsibility to take it off the glacier. It is also easy for commercial companies to directly allocate costs on a per client/climber/trekker basis making their cost caluclations easier. There are limitations to the use of bags however, it depends on how much waste the expedition produces. Typically a 30 man expedition can produce up to 500kgs of waste in a 1 month period. That equates to about 16 kgs of poo per person to be carried off the glacier. So the idea is good for short trips but not very practical for big expeds.
Your idea of a make toilets toilet is good. Drying it will greatly reduce the waste volume and the odour. There are some great drying toilets available, as i saw at the Exit Strategies conferences in Golden this year. Can someone help her with more info on this. However, more important to know is who will manage the toilet and who will carry the waste out. Without someone to look after the toilets, they will become dirty and unused very quickly. In the everest region we have an made an agreement with Sagarmatha Pollution Control Committee (SPCC): they will design practical toilets according to the need on the mountains and they will manage it, we (Nepal Mountaineering Association, NMA) will monitor their work and provide the funding. Furthermore, cultural factors may also mean that local porters are not prepared to carry human waste.
On Mt. Everest another system is employed. Everest Base camp is also on a glacier. We all poo in big blue barrels at base camp and twice a week an authorised staff of SPCC comes and weighs the barrels, charges us per kilo (about a 60 Euro cent per kilo), and carries the waste off the glacier and takes it to a pit near the village of Gorakshep. They then wash the barrels and return it to us in base camp for re-use. My expeditions have been using the poo bags for the last three years when climbing on the mountain. When we are back down at base camp, we collect all the poo bags in one separate blue barrel and also hand that over to the SPCC. Each climber is responsible to bring his own waste down (about 500grams to 1 kg for every return trip to Base Camp). The system works really well but requires the commitment of climbers, local people and/or organisations!
Dawa Steven Sherpa
Convenor, Environment Protection Committee, NMA
Leader, Eco Everest Expedition (www.asian-trekking.com/report.pdf)
Roger Robinson
PERRIER Loïc
In 2007, we settled toilet in 4 400 m of height in the massif of the Mont Blanc. You can see in attached a picture of this toilet. For the season 2008-2009, we installed chips of temperature (called thermochron, range of use: 40 - 85 °C). You can see in the joined graph which the temperatures go down very low, often lower in-40°C (limit of use of the sensor). Naturally, toilet are not used during these period of big cold. However, the system continues to work for 3 years and we are going to realize a new serie of measure in 2011. Urines are spread.
We need some electricity. For dehydratation, we use 1.2W and 2 W pans for 1 carousel and an another one 1.2 W for the ventilation. All this pan work with 12 V from solar panels.
To limit the frost of urines, we use a 12V heating cable .
For this toilet with stake in bag, we size the system so that the customer intervene only once a year (draining of bags). Ventilators and battery have life expectancies from 5 to 8 years old.
There are several strategies for the bagged feces : spot incineration, descent in valley for incineration, descent in valley for composting or vermicomposting...
You can see a picture of the toilet in attached.
Regards
Loïc PERRIER
ECOSPHERE
NB. : We have 10 toilets in Switzerland : Täschhütte (2700 m), Cabane de Saleinaz (2690 m), Leglerhütte (2273 m), Trifthütte (2520 m), Pra Cornet (1650 m), Cabane de Trient (3170 m), Carrouge , Wildstrubelhütte (2300 m), Chaman Lischana (2500m), Finisteraarhorn (3050 m) and Wildhorn (2300 m)
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Geoff Hill
To All,
I’ve been up and down the Baltoro Glacier 10 times in the past 30 years so based on my experience here are some thought that I have on this subject.
This is a very complex issue to solve completely given the number of users. I’m guessing that there are around 50 expeditions to the upper Baltoro. Let’s say they have 7 members each and stay on the glacier for an average of 40 days. That is 14,000 man-days for the expedition members. Now let’s assume each expedition uses 60 porters to get to base camp, each spending 10 days to get there so you have 60x50x10=30,000 man-days for a total of 44,000 man days. I don’t know how much poop and urine that amounts to; Geoff could probably answer that question. This is obviously a rough approximation, but it gives you and order of magnitude. Most of those expeditions are divided amongst three base camps, K2, Broad Peak, and Gasherbrum.
I think it is a great idea to work with someone like Geoff who knows what he is doing because whatever technology you use it needs to be scalable to the magnitude that I’m talking about at some point.
Also keep in mind you need to accommodate cultural issues there that you do not have in the west. For example I do not think you will ever get the porters to poop in a bag. I have seen hundreds of them poop out in a field when there was an outhouse right there for them to use. Someone who knows more that I do about how rural Muslim communities might accept should be consulted. A good example is in 1992 I led a trip to Gasherbrum IV where we wanted to install toilets on the glacier similar to the outhouses on the glacier that were used on Denali at the time. Roger I think we got the plans from you on building a wooden box with 2x4 holing it up that you can set over a crevasse. We had some carpenters in Skardu build two of them for us and we had them carried up the Baltoro Glacier where we put one of them at Concordia where a lot of expeditions and trekkers stay. On the way back we noticed it was gone and found out that the porters had chopped it up to use for firewood. You can see from my numbers, that most of the waste comes from the porters, so implementing a solution that has not been vetted with the locals is sure to fail.
This situation is very different than Mt Everest because these base camps are a long way from any of the villages, and a long way up these glaciers. Trying to haul poop to a disposal site becomes pretty expensive and I’ve seen a lot of technologies fail that try to treat it on-site and then this stuff just becomes more garbage up there. I think a reconnaissance trip by experts like Geoff or Roger might be a good first step to do an assessment first and then evaluate alternatives after you have seen it.
I haven’t even talked about the Pakistani Army. They have outposts up past the Gasherbrum base camp and up on Conway’s Saddle. They run donkey trains up the glacier that supply some of these outposts and they have their own outposts along the Baltoro for soldiers to stay at along the way. They may be producing more poop that anyone. Incorporating them into this probably makes things too complicated, but the reason I mention it is this is going to be expensive and there may be a way to get money from Pakistan or the US for this.
Steve Swenson
President
American Alpine Club
From: Geoff Hill [mailto:geoff...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 9:40 AM
To: Roger Robinson
Cc: managing-human-w...@googlegroups.com; Nazir Sabir; Col Ravinder Nath; Steve Swenson; Joe Arnold; Karen Rollins; Bruno Hasler; Ingo Nicolay; je...@swsloo.com; Jennifer Lowe-Anker; Jennif...@fws.gov; Michael Ells
Subject: Re: [Managing Human Waste in the Wild] Baltoro Glacier
Hi Tiziana,
Thanks Roger for forwarding your email. Sounds like a great project. I also have a good friend who is friends with Mike Horn. Funny coincidence. His name is Cedric Zulauff, and lives in Chateau D'oex.
I've spent the last 2 years working on the issue of alpine waste management for my PHD at UBC in Vancouver.
I've looked at
composting toilets
urine diversion
solar + 12v dehydration
110v dehydration
incineration
compost end product assessment tool
My quick answer is that
1) dehydrated feces are not fertilizer. Dry poo is dry poo, which is phytotoxic, robs soils of nutrients during the decomposition phase, and may still entrain pathogens. It needs to be very very dry for a period of time, preferably with pH 12 or higher before the pathogens are dead. Still not chemically stable, meaning when its added to a local soil, the microbes will steal nitrogen from the soil in order to balance the high carbon content of poop while their populations swell to decompose the material.
2) composting toilets don't work at most high alpine locations. Poop and wood chips mixed together under low ambient temperatures, even with solar hot air panel contributions produce poop and wood chips. So now you've got a $40K toilet that you're flying woodchips up to and flying poop and wood chips out from. This is the case at numerous toilets in Canada's Rocky Mountains. Solvita.net may be a cheap and easy tool to determine stability and maturity, but I haven't run the analysis yet. Perhaps a dedicated and trained technician could get a toilet to work, but when that operator leaves the pile would likely stop working.
3) urine diversion: very effective at reducing total waste mass. Elimination of the liquid also greatly reduces the transport mechanism (leechate) from the pollution equation. Reduces mass 60-70%. Urine is a great fertilizer and is generally considered sterile. It can be spread as is, or better yet, add a carbon source to the urine (wood chips, grass, sugar) and get microbes started in their nitrification process (urea to nitrate). Nitrate is much more plant available than urea. Urea is toxic to some foliage at high concentrations. However it is very heavy and may be challenging to move from toilet to valley bottom for agriculture.
4) Solar dehydration: can be effective at physically stabilizing the remaining urine diverted solids. Reduces mass a further 10-20% ontop of Urine Diversion. Does not desiccate, which is what is needed to kill pathogens.
5) Incineration without lots of liquid fuel requires dehydration to <5% moisture, which is impractical where there are more than a few users per day. Requires a very sunny zone or 1500W of power with a high amperage circuit. Elastec - smart ash for product details. Nasty job with lots of stirring.
I have tested some designs for all of these and have sourced parts for all others that I have not designed or built.
I started an NGO called the Green Everest Alliance with Cory Richards, www.greeneverest.org to spread these ideas, but have not had much time to travel internationally. Perhaps we can join forces with you being the field crew testing these over there?
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Roger Robinson
To All,
I’ve been up and down the Baltoro Glacier 10 times in the past 30 years so based on my experience here are some thought that I have on this subject.
This is a very complex issue to solve completely given the number of users. I’m guessing that there are around 50 expeditions to the upper Baltoro. Let’s say they have 7 members each and stay on the glacier for an average of 40 days. That is 14,000 man-days for the expedition members. Now let’s assume each expedition uses 60 porters to get to base camp, each spending 10 days to get there so you have 60x50x10=30,000 man-days for a total of 44,000 man days. I don’t know how much poop and urine that amounts to; Geoff could probably answer that question. This is obviously a rough approximation, but it gives you and order of magnitude. Most of those expeditions are divided amongst three base camps, K2, Broad Peak, and Gasherbrum.
I think it is a great idea to work with someone like Geoff who knows what he is doing because whatever technology you use it needs to be scalable to the magnitude that I’m talking about at some point.
Also keep in mind you need to accommodate cultural issues there that you do not have in the west. For example I do not think you will ever get the porters to poop in a bag. I have seen hundreds of them poop out in a field when there was an outhouse right there for them to use. Someone who knows more that I do about how rural Muslim communities might accept should be consulted. A good example is in 1992 I led a trip to Gasherbrum IV where we wanted to install toilets on the glacier similar to the outhouses on the glacier that were used on Denali at the time. Roger I think we got the plans from you on building a wooden box with 2x4 holing it up that you can set over a crevasse. We had some carpenters in Skardu build two of them for us and we had them carried up the Baltoro Glacier where we put one of them at Concordia where a lot of expeditions and trekkers stay. On the way back we noticed it was gone and found out that the porters had chopped it up to use for firewood. You can see from my numbers, that most of the waste comes from the porters, so implementing a solution that has not been vetted with the locals is sure to fail.
This situation is very different than Mt Everest because these base camps are a long way from any of the villages, and a long way up these glaciers. Trying to haul poop to a disposal site becomes pretty expensive and I’ve seen a lot of technologies fail that try to treat it on-site and then this stuff just becomes more garbage up there. I think a reconnaissance trip by experts like Geoff or Roger might be a good first step to do an assessment first and then evaluate alternatives after you have seen it.
I haven’t even talked about the Pakistani Army. They have outposts up past the Gasherbrum base camp and up on Conway’s Saddle. They run donkey trains up the glacier that supply some of these outposts and they have their own outposts along the Baltoro for soldiers to stay at along the way. They may be producing more poop that anyone. Incorporating them into this probably makes things too complicated, but the reason I mention it is this is going to be expensive and there may be a way to get money from Pakistan or the US for this.
Steve Swenson
President
American Alpine Club
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Roger Robinson
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Tiziana
First, I want to say thank you to everyone here.
I am sure that the peepoo bag is a great idea, but in this case, a
toilet construction
would be better. Like Steve Swenson said, there are many many porters.
On our expedition, we were 19 members and 248 porters at the
beginning.
Most of them poop out in the field.
At Concordia, there was a Pakistani NGO, they set up 2 toilet tents,
an some of the
porters used it. We will work together with them.
But still, there's the problem of carrying it down. This is why we
want to dry it up in the mountain,
pack it,..then it would not be human waste anymore, but fertilizer (I
thought). But it is not, like Geoff Hill explained (I'm very happy
that I have this
information now, thank you!). And that urine diversion reduces mass
60-70% is also great to know!
Loïc Perrier: Last year, I've seen the toilet at the Chamanna
Lischana. This would be great, but: the conditions on the glacier
change every year.
For example, in June, when we were there, there was so much snow, that
we could not reach Concordia, and set up our tents one or two
kilometres before.
A glacier is moving, this is why we are looking for a portable
solution, so we can set it up at the beginning of the season and bring
it down
at the end. But for the camps that are not on the glacier, but right
next to it, that would be a good toilet!
I'm excited that so many people are willing to help me! Thank you so
much!
Rodney Garrard
An interesting project!
In conjunction with the rest of the groups feedback, I just wanted to bring to your attention the Seed Project (EV-K2-CNR), which is active dealing with waste and constructing toilets on the Baltoro. I attach their press release from July 09, 2010 fyi. It would be worth contacting Elisa Vuillermoz who is on this Committee - elisa.vu...@evk2cnr.org
Best of luck,
Tschuess
Rodney
From: Tiziana <s097...@access.uzh.ch>
To: Managing Human Waste in the Wild <managing-human-w...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, 18 November, 2010 9:40:13 AM
Subject: [Managing Human Waste in the Wild] Re: Baltoro Glacier
Karen Rollins
Roger Robinson
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 2:41 AM, Nazir Sabir <na...@nazirsabir.com>
wrote:
Dear Roger,
Thanks for your email of today. You rightly said EV-K2-CNR is the NGO
which in collaboration with the Alpine Club of Pakistan has been
undertaking cleaning expeditions of Baltoro for last six years we
jointly organized a cleaning expedition to K2 (upto C3) in this
project that Tiziana is also referring to in her note.
I am keen to make it a permanent feature and will make every possible
effort in this direction.
With warm regards
Nazir Sabir
On Nov 22, 6:59 pm, Rodney Garrard <rodneygarr...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> HoiTiziana,
> An interesting project!
>
> In conjunction with the rest of the groups feedback, I just wanted to bring to
> your attention the Seed Project (EV-K2-CNR), which is active dealing with waste
> and constructing toilets on the Baltoro. I attach their press release from July
> 09, 2010 fyi. It would be worth contacting Elisa Vuillermoz who is on this
> Best of luck,
>
> Tschuess
>
> Rodney
>
> www.garrard.co.nz
>
> ________________________________