Update 09. November (Sloppy) first Test Print!

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Nils Hitze

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Nov 9, 2012, 3:37:39 PM11/9/12
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Hi - it's late in Germany, it is even later in HK, but i thought i share this one with you guys.

http://youtu.be/07JQHOTRSLY (Jon explaining the Box)

Blogpost:
http://makibox.com/blog.html?month=201211

Kind Regards,
a happy Community Manager

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Community Manager

Russ Taber

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Nov 9, 2012, 4:47:47 PM11/9/12
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Great birthday (for me) news! It's working!

Brad Wilkinson

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Nov 9, 2012, 5:08:44 PM11/9/12
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Congrats on the milestone!


On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Russ Taber <russ...@gmail.com> wrote:
Great birthday (for me) news! It's working!

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-Brad-

"Velim te futuas"

Daniel Strabley

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Nov 9, 2012, 5:21:03 PM11/9/12
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Ill second that - its like watching your kid take their first steps.... tho i dont have kids... i can imagine its just like this!

andy turudic

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Nov 9, 2012, 5:51:24 PM11/9/12
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The xyz has been working for a long time as has the pellet extruder.

You are looking at first system integration, which normally has bugs to work out. With the xyz and pellet extruders working, the extruder, etc, are pretty straight forward.

BUT, to call it "working" is going to start all the whining to ship units, vs giving Jon some more rope to innovate and fully debug/optimize. I'd say he has a chance of making it by Xmas...the question is whether it'll be the Russian Xmas, or not...

If you see it make a model, it doesn't mean it should ship. They need some time after that to evaluate, tune, tweak, innovate. Watch the progress, cheer, but don't let the enthusiasm of the birthing lead to disappointment if you don't see anything for a while thereafter. You shouldn't.

Keep cheering, but don't let it lead to "when can I have my machine"...you can have a well thought out, reliable, design or you can get a less optimal piece of crap early...that is how crappy products are released in the corporate world where pressure to ship trumps getting it right.

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 9, 2012, at 13:47, Russ Taber <russ...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Great birthday (for me) news! It's working!
>

Michael Kirkland

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Nov 9, 2012, 5:55:00 PM11/9/12
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On 11/09/12 14:51, andy turudic wrote:
> The xyz has been working for a long time as has the pellet extruder.
>
> You are looking at first system integration, which normally has bugs to work out. With the xyz and pellet extruders working, the extruder, etc, are pretty straight forward.
>
> BUT, to call it "working" is going to start all the whining to ship units, vs giving Jon some more rope to innovate and fully debug/optimize. I'd say he has a chance of making it by Xmas...the question is whether it'll be the Russian Xmas, or not...
>
> If you see it make a model, it doesn't mean it should ship. They need some time after that to evaluate, tune, tweak, innovate. Watch the progress, cheer, but don't let the enthusiasm of the birthing lead to disappointment if you don't see anything for a while thereafter. You shouldn't.
>
> Keep cheering, but don't let it lead to "when can I have my machine"...you can have a well thought out, reliable, design or you can get a less optimal piece of crap early...that is how crappy products are released in the corporate world where pressure to ship trumps getting it right.

This. I gave Jon my monies so he could build me something cool, not so I
could have a printer Right Now.

Nils Hitze

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Nov 10, 2012, 12:38:12 AM11/10/12
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You guys are awesome,  thanks a lot for your patience and passion.

Logan Dorsey

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Nov 10, 2012, 12:52:17 AM11/10/12
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And thank you for your hard work on this project!

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 9, 2012, at 9:38 PM, Nils Hitze <nils....@makible.com> wrote:

You guys are awesome,  thanks a lot for your patience and passion.

--

Brad Wilkinson

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Nov 10, 2012, 1:27:47 AM11/10/12
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Better something Quality, (or even better, Ground-breakingly Awesome), than something Right Now. Seriously.


On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 12:38 AM, Nils Hitze <nils....@makible.com> wrote:

You guys are awesome,  thanks a lot for your patience and passion.

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Adam Risi

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Nov 10, 2012, 1:46:14 AM11/10/12
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That is one satisfying update! Thanks you!
Adam Risi
Google, Inc.

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. -Robert A. Heinlein

Evan Slatyer

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Nov 10, 2012, 3:41:27 AM11/10/12
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That's the first time we've seen the Makibox moving "by itself" (ie
not just having the motors driven one at a time by a computer) isn't
it? Looks great!

I noticed that the filament drive motor was very frequently reversing
in that video. Is it likely that the feedback mechanism will avoid the
need for this? Or can the pellet drive manage reverse?

On 11/10/12, Adam Risi <ajr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That is one satisfying update! Thanks you!
>
> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 10:27 PM, Brad Wilkinson <sirg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Better something Quality, (or even better, Ground-breakingly Awesome),
>> than something Right Now. Seriously.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 12:38 AM, Nils Hitze
>> <nils....@makible.com>wrote:
>>
>>> You guys are awesome, thanks a lot for your patience and passion.
>>>
>>> --
>>> -- Get more Updates from the Makibox on makibox.com or join the
>>> discussion on our Forum: forum.makibox.com
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>>> at https://groups.google.com/d/forum/makibox?hl=en
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -Brad-
>>
>> *"Velim te futuas"*
>>
>> --
>> -- Get more Updates from the Makibox on makibox.com or join the
>> discussion on our Forum: forum.makibox.com
>>
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Adam Risi
> Google, Inc.
> Cell: 585-236-0906
>
> A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher
> a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts,
> build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,
> cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,
> program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
> Specialization is for insects. -Robert A. Heinlein
>

torleif ceder

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Nov 10, 2012, 4:39:04 AM11/10/12
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I totally agree, I really don't  see the point in rushing this out before the holidays. Its R&D, not a toy store for kids. Grownups are to have a little more patience.The team is doing a great job but since Jon have broken the expression "quick wrap up" there is no way to reliably know. Its done when its done.

Taking in account past error of  predictions and development time, My guess is as good as anyone's. Some of the subsystems are under numbingly tight design and cost constraint prohibiting use of best practice and optimal components or material. Several "prototypes within prototype" relations need to get cleared for effective point of failure eradication. So realistically, I'm not surprised by something on the order of ten weeks for system integration, five weeks stress testing, three to five more for final shipping prep and 6 months for software to mature to commercial reliability.

My suggestion i that the team refrains from releasing any more progress updates in tense futurus.

andy turudic

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Nov 10, 2012, 5:07:10 AM11/10/12
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This isn't the first time it's moved "by itself".

Go back in the updates and you'll see the makibox configured and running as a pen plotter.

The video didn't go viral because Jon's marketing instincts were too timid to draw some softcore porn with it, IMO :-)

Sent from my iPhone

Jonathan Buford

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Nov 10, 2012, 5:16:58 AM11/10/12
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Here is a question for you guys. I can see that we can get a filament
printing version of the MakiBox able to ship within the holiday
timeframe. The integrated pellet drive will take a little longer to
get it to where I would be happy with shipping it to the masses. It
works, but we don't have enough time to test it where I *know* that it
is stable.

So, the question for the people on this list, which I think has a
significant part of the people that are long term followers of the
project is:
Would you rather a) receive a filament based unit before the end of
the year with a (free) pellet upgrade to follow shortly, b) a filament
based system and some additional printing material to thank you for
your patience (and be able to purchase a separate filament extruder
shortly), or c) just wait until there is a fully integrated unit early
Q1 2013 after we ship to the folks that just want anything that
prints?

One factor that I've not brought up before is that we are currently
looking at that we will be including an additional motor for driving
the filament regardless. During integration of the pellet drive into
the printing platform, it became clear that the forces to drive the
filament to print were causing some (possibly solvable, but black box)
type problems that could be satisfactorily side-stepped by adding the
separate drive motor to handle the cooled filament. So, it looks like
for this generation, the fully integrated pellet drive to separate
print head may not be feasible within a reasonable amount of time.

From a business standpoint, we need to start shipping, and I see this
being what I consider a no-compromise solution that I would be
comfortable with. Now that we have the filament extrusion technology
sorted, we can make cheaper filament in house, so our lead time and
MOQ issues with filament are not an issue any more.

I want to come up with a simple solution that winds up getting the
various early supporters what they want, if it is just a compact and
easy to use 3D printer or if it is the pellet extrusion technology, so
it would be interesting to hear what people here are most interested
in.

Cheers,

Jon

Jonathan Buford

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Nov 10, 2012, 5:18:20 AM11/10/12
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My marketing instincts, did you know I made the first crowd funded
adult toy back in 2005? I just keep this project a little more family
friendly.

andy turudic

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Nov 10, 2012, 5:22:55 AM11/10/12
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As far as cost constraints, if $50, or even $100 results in eliminating "numbingly tight design and cost constraint prohibiting use of best practice and optimal components or material" I'd say go for it as a iA6 (improved) model. 

Those that use these for one or two projects a year will be fine with the $300 ceiling constrained units.

The heavy users I don't think will mind a 10, 20, or 30 percent overrun if it gets rid of "the subsystems that are under numbingly tight design and cost constraint prohibiting use of best practice and optimal components or material"

So, how about it? Makibox A6, and Makibox iA6 models? Both are still under $400 (not that I'm complaining about $300).

Jon - if your guys are banging their foreheads against the wall...ask us. Constraint promotes innovation, but if it takes too long, it breeds compromise and suboptimal implementations.

Just ask us here...there are many of us here who are not shy about expressing opinion, and are  willing to provide insight or knowledge, to help you guys out.

Sent from my iPhone

Guyren Howe

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Nov 10, 2012, 5:25:21 AM11/10/12
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For my part, I have quite a bit of filament (can we use any regular size?) from an aborted attempt to build a bot myself. So I'd be quite happy with a filament driven bot for now. If the upgrade is free, so I wind up with a bot that can use either, that sounds like a great way to go, technology wise, anyway.

Neale Green

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Nov 10, 2012, 3:48:09 PM11/10/12
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Just talking for myself, I'm inclined to to go with c) just wait until
there is a fully integrated unit early Q1 2013.

As others have said, there shouldn't be many in here threatening to hold
their breath until their toys turn up, we opted to invest in getting a
viable/affordable 3D printer developed, I'm happy to wait for that.

Now if you happened onto a brainwave during the remaining development time
to incorporate metal printing, I'd he happy as Larry ;^)

So, 1 vote to wait until you finish what you're working on.

Neale
> On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 5:39 PM, torleif ceder <torlei...@gmail.com>
Neale
Green

Robin Bussell

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Nov 10, 2012, 5:29:39 AM11/10/12
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Make that two votes for playing the long game :)
Is there a voting module for the forum? There often is on these things, it would make life easier than counting emails perhaps :)
Cheers,
Robin.

David Contreni

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Nov 10, 2012, 5:33:25 AM11/10/12
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I'm not sure where I am in your list Jon, perhaps a couple dozen sales outside of the original 300.  The pellet feed was a hard sell for me, but something that I've come to believe in.  BUT, at the same time, heh, I'm a little impatient to get my hands on a Makibox.  With this in mind, I think I'd like to go with the first offer--filament system, and free upgrade to pellet feed later.

That being said, it might surprise you that in spite of missing the "by Christmas" deadline, I could still stand to be a little more patient.  I know you're going to have this thing nailed in short order.

Holger Bastek

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Nov 10, 2012, 5:33:30 AM11/10/12
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I would prefer offer (a) with the free option for the pellet extruder.
I only see one problem on that solution, after you go that way you are
restricted in the development.
If you are sure to go that way, i were very happy to get my box soon.

BR
Holger

Jonathan Buford

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Nov 10, 2012, 5:36:59 AM11/10/12
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I'll do this formally via the site soon. It just looked like a good opportunity to run the situation by folks and see the feedback before popping it to several hundred people.

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andy turudic

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Nov 10, 2012, 5:38:22 AM11/10/12
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yeah, but now we can print our own...I'll bet that's how you came up with the build volume, isn't it
;-)

Sent from my iPhone

andy turudic

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Nov 10, 2012, 5:41:00 AM11/10/12
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I suggest you start shipping filament units to those that want machines so you can get your cash flowing sooner than later with more orders. I also suggest you don't give away a pellet drive upgrade, but it be priced as an optional line item or can be ordered afterwards.

in other words, filament with a subsequent purchase of a pellet drive, or those that wait get a pellet drive with the ability to purchase a filament kit. no need for extra material being shipped as a reward...chump change for us, a month's electric bills for you.

offer two machines, and two changeover kits, nothing free. you need to pay your bills or all this grinds to a complete halt.

don't give anything away, unless it's a "recall" of a really bad design that got released to the first 1000.

if there's an extra motor needed, jack the price up $25, or whatever it is so you are not wrapping each motor in dollar bills when you ship them.

don't padlock the doors in being too kind to us.

The $300 sounds like a bit low for going forward. Up to you to honor existing orders at the current level. I'm sure most won't mind paying a bit more for that unanticipated motor if it makes the machine right.

my $0.02

Sent from my iPhone

Imko Beckhoven van

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Nov 10, 2012, 5:54:46 AM11/10/12
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my first reaction, option a 



2012/11/10 Jonathan Buford <jon.b...@gmail.com>

andy turudic

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Nov 10, 2012, 6:04:32 AM11/10/12
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again, I see no need to ship a "dual mode" printer at $300.

the pellet drive gets done when it gets done.

if there's an earlier filament machine, you pay for early by getting a filament machine. you want pellet wgen it becomes available, you buy it. The savings for just one spool of filament will buy it for you..it shouldn't have to come out of Jon's pocket.

everyone like "free" and "coupons"...you need to feed the R&D to get the next little add-on for this platform, not pillage its dwindling cash reserve with unreasonable freebie demands.

offer the choice Jon..and vonvert the orders A6F or A6P. 

A6F shipping forecast xx/yy/201x $300

A6P shipping forecast xx/yy/201x $325 (or whatever to cover that motor and other materials needs)

Amend existing orders accordingly.

Also price the changeover kits to take one feed scheme to the other.

"would you like x for free?"

how many resounding "no's" are you going to get?

hardball it...no freebies unless there's a design problem....that in itself will get expensive, but hopefully won't happen

Sent from my iPhone

Holger Bastek

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Nov 10, 2012, 6:20:25 AM11/10/12
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I agree with Andy

some time ago I have pay the (old) Makibox without the pellet drive. So now I have to decide which Box I want to have.
With filament around christmas
with pellet drive (perhaps additional costs for more stepper motors) in Q1 1213

I also think "everything for free" is no way to go.

Keep on working, but don´t forget to live

BR
Holger

Davor Hrg

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Nov 10, 2012, 6:33:51 AM11/10/12
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I agree with no too much free stuff folks :)

It is my money to spend, and i don't give it up easily, but...
I am generally pro for the stainless option mentioned some time
ago if I see extra cost worth it in my mind :) .


Consolidate the offered options, and add few bucks for those willing to wait,
for integrated version as additional R&D is not free of cost.

Each one of us will then decide what we  want and let you know,
after that, you can make more plans and continue the good work :)


I am willing to wait for the integrated version few more months,
even if you add $25 on top of that :) ... for more I'd have to think ;)



Davor Hrg

XXXX XXXX

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Nov 10, 2012, 6:37:10 AM11/10/12
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Hi

I would go with option A if there is no complex integration of the Pellet Drive when it arrives as I have no experience in soldering although I did do welding when I was growing up on a farm.
Again with option A will there be any filament included and I take it we will need the 1.75mm filament?
I would go through a lot printing attempts as I would like to run through most of the configurable settings as that is my nature.  I have many years testing and also Quality Assurance after I gave up being a developer because I saw a greater need of quality for the clients rahter than rushed development.

Alternatively how much would option B cost.  I did consider hacking the system to be able to make filament while not printing.

And for each of these options how would the filament be mounted without the extruder, would it simply be a spool located where the pellet bin was going to be located?

Thanks

Carter Adams

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Nov 10, 2012, 6:44:33 AM11/10/12
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Option "a" would be hard to turn down...

Regards,

Carter Adams

www.LeagueOperator.org
www.CartersBilliardsLibrary.com
poolp...@gmail.com

Sent from my Android powered EVO by Sprint

Willem Lijmbach

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Nov 10, 2012, 6:46:37 AM11/10/12
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Option A would be very nice.....

2012/11/10 Carter Adams <poolp...@gmail.com>:

Hassan

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Nov 10, 2012, 7:10:42 AM11/10/12
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I think I can wait till the option C.

Sent from my iPhone

Markku Porvari

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Nov 10, 2012, 7:29:06 AM11/10/12
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Version A would be best - possibility to print with filaments soon and the
possibility to change the printing from pellets later - ABSOLUTELY THE BEST
CHOICE!

-make3D-

-----Original Message-----
From: mak...@googlegroups.com [mailto:mak...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Jonathan Buford
Sent: 10. marraskuuta 2012 12:17
To: mak...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Makibox] Update 09. November (Sloppy) first Test Print!

> makibox+group at
> https://groups.google.com/d/forum/makibox?hl=en

Michael Ziolek

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Nov 10, 2012, 7:34:34 AM11/10/12
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I think this deserves multiple points of consideration. Jon, any way
we can get a rough price for the "paid" option a? Also, giving the
pellet option out for free to early orders is not necessarily a killer
for income. If we start putting out reviews and videos on YouTube and
grow the 3D printing community as Jon was hoping, I can easily see a
big list of new orders for units flooding in. That being said, I would
raise the price once units are moving out the door. Pre-release units
as funding (the boat we are all in) are typically cheaper as a reward
for patience and support. Why not take those extra costs and put them
on the future buyers who didn't go through hundreds of emails and
didn't just send out $350 to some random place in HK (no offense, Jon
:) ). Jon could EASILY raise the price another $100 for future buyers
without hurting sales. Also, I might as well mention/ask, is that
laser cutting mod still something in the plans for way farther future?

Michael

Sent from a mobile device.

Evan Slatyer

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Nov 10, 2012, 7:36:27 AM11/10/12
to mak...@googlegroups.com
I'd probably prefer option (A), although I'd also be very happy with
either of the other options. The only limitation is that I'd expect
option (C) to still be able to use filament; otherwise it's clearly
less flexible than (A) or (B).


How much of the pellet extruder can be printed? If you ship options
(A) or (B) and people can use that to print a substantial portion of
the parts needed for the pellet extruder, that might save some
time/money.


Apart from that, if the $300 budget is causing problems then I don't
have a problem with paying a bit more to get it done right.

Soren Jones

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Nov 10, 2012, 7:47:53 AM11/10/12
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1) C
2) A
3) B

All the best,
Soren
> On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 5:39 PM, torleif ceder <torlei...@gmail.com (mailto:torlei...@gmail.com)> wrote:
> > I totally agree, I really don't see the point in rushing this out before
> > the holidays. Its R&D, not a toy store for kids. Grownups are to have a
> > little more patience.The team is doing a great job but since Jon have broken
> > the expression "quick wrap up" there is no way to reliably know. Its done
> > when its done.
> >
> > Taking in account past error of predictions and development time, My guess
> > is as good as anyone's. Some of the subsystems are under numbingly tight
> > design and cost constraint prohibiting use of best practice and optimal
> > components or material. Several "prototypes within prototype" relations need
> > to get cleared for effective point of failure eradication. So realistically,
> > I'm not surprised by something on the order of ten weeks for system
> > integration, five weeks stress testing, three to five more for final
> > shipping prep and 6 months for software to mature to commercial reliability.
> >
> > My suggestion i that the team refrains from releasing any more progress
> > updates in tense futurus.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Saturday, November 10, 2012 7:27:55 AM UTC+1, sirgronk wrote:
> > >
> > > Better something Quality, (or even better, Ground-breakingly Awesome),
> > > than something Right Now. Seriously.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 12:38 AM, Nils Hitze <nils....@makible.com (http://makible.com)> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > You guys are awesome, thanks a lot for your patience and passion.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > -- Get more Updates from the Makibox on makibox.com (http://makibox.com) or join the
> > > > discussion on our Forum: forum.makibox.com (http://forum.makibox.com)
> > > >
> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > > > Makibox group. To post to this group, send email to mak...@googlegroups.com (http://googlegroups.com).
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to makibox+u...@googlegroups.com (http://googlegroups.com).
> > > > For more options, visit this group at
> > > > https://groups.google.com/d/forum/makibox?hl=en
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > -Brad-
> > >
> > > "Velim te futuas"
> > --
> > -- Get more Updates from the Makibox on makibox.com (http://makibox.com) or join the discussion
> > on our Forum: forum.makibox.com (http://forum.makibox.com)
> >
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > Makibox group. To post to this group, send email to
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Gabriel Petrut

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Nov 10, 2012, 7:59:24 AM11/10/12
to mak...@googlegroups.com
Andy is perfectly right. I signed up for a filament printer. I will pay for the pellet extruder gladly as an upgrade, perhaps at the price of the parts plus a little markup, compared to the regular price that will include a generous markup to cover the R&D. Plus, it will be worth it to make the pellet drive able to make filament of different diameters, the 1.5 mm (or 1.75, don't remember exactly the standard), this way people with other printers will be happy to buy one, thus more revenue for you. So, I would like to get my hands early on a MakiBox, because besides being a robot builder, I am a beekeeper, and I have lots of free time over the winter but almost no time after the spring starts.

Cheers!
Gabriel Petrut


From: andy turudic <solutions...@yahoo.com>
To: "mak...@googlegroups.com" <mak...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 6:04:32 AM

Subject: Re: [Makibox] Update 09. November (Sloppy) first Test Print!

Wesley Woo-Duk Hwang-Chung

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Nov 10, 2012, 8:02:35 AM11/10/12
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Here's my two cents. Sounds like the (a) option is a win-win for me.
Customers get their products "faster", and the company gets the orders
fulfilled. The whole pellet drive was not initially in the proposal
anyway, so it's not technically not delivering the promise. The first
followers that stayed through the pellet drive development gets
rewarded for eventual free upgrade.

While I do prefer better than faster, some lines have to be drawn, and
if the filament drive already works sufficiently well, I'm all for
receiving that unit first.

Sent from my Windows Phone에서 발송된 메일입니다.
Wesley Woo-Duk Hwang-Chung | 정우덕
Tool-Box.info
보낸 사람: Jonathan Buford
보낸 날짜: 2012-11-10 19:17
받는 사람: mak...@googlegroups.com
제목: Re: [Makibox] Update 09. November (Sloppy) first Test Print!

Stephane BUISSON

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Nov 10, 2012, 8:12:22 AM11/10/12
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Definitely option A

I will be very happy to pay for some filament on top in the waiting
time for the pellet extruder.

And about the frame, clear acrylic (I'll like to see inside), like
your prototype.

if pellet extruder is separated (discrete ) unit it is even better for
me.

Your follower since march 2012.


Stephane

Jonathan Buford

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Nov 10, 2012, 8:14:33 AM11/10/12
to mak...@googlegroups.com
Pellet extruder that goes with the MakiBox would fit into the package
still. Just fill in the space where the filament would otherwise go.
It would tap into the onboard controller and power, so keeping the
costs lower than the standalone design.

Jens Rapp

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Nov 10, 2012, 8:47:51 AM11/10/12
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Hi,
I'd prefer a because i want the box asap ;) but I also want to have the
pellet drive because it makes printing effordable.
Color doesn't matter if it's not pink..

Kevin Williams

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Nov 10, 2012, 9:00:24 AM11/10/12
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Mixed feelings.

Despite my impatience to start printing, cost is a huge factor for me:
Commercial services are expensive, but spools of media (especially if there's
a lot of unrecoverable waste) aren't cheap either.

I also confess I haven't spent any time at all window shopping for filament
since I want to be sure I'm looking at the right diameter and supported media
type(s) before trying to find a quality supply (tes, I'm one of those nuts
who wants to be able to print in ABS).

I sense am likely to get a better-sorted overall printer if I wait for option
"C" since more kinks are likely to be ironed out after the first wave of
printers goes out the door.

Since I paid a bit extra for one of the "additional print media" options, I'm
more inclined to want to want to redirect that money toward the pellet drive
(first) if it costs more than the filament-only version, and/or payment
toward the stainless chassis option if that's still on the table (depending
on how much higher the cost will be).

So, option "C" is my first choice with "A" as a second, but that could still
change based on how the final cost rains out, and how well-sorted the printer
is working with just a filament drive.

Since the options were brought up, I'd like to voice that I also feel very
strongly that the presence of a pellet drive + hopper should NOT exclude the
possibility of still using pre-fabricated filament on that printer.

Cheers,
Kevin W.

Robin Bussell

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Nov 10, 2012, 8:59:47 AM11/10/12
to <makibox@googlegroups.com>
Here's a cool idea ( which means you probably already thought of it :) )
The extra motor for filament driving could maybe also do duty as a spool winder if the makibox was configured as a filament producer for non pellet drive users in the distributed ecosystem I think you have in mind.
Cheers,
Robin.

Jonathan Buford

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Nov 10, 2012, 9:02:35 AM11/10/12
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I think we will try to make it a hot swap type of option, where you
can fit in the pellet extruder in the same space as where a box of
filament would fit.

Filament, we will be introducing it at $16/kg, now that we have the
ability to make it at will. :)

Jonathan Buford

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Nov 10, 2012, 9:03:50 AM11/10/12
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Hmm, true. That is one bit that would not be included in the
integrated unit. Sounds like a printable mod to me.

David Contreni

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Nov 10, 2012, 9:08:21 AM11/10/12
to mak...@googlegroups.com
I went back to bed, woke up and see lots of new responses.  I guess that shouldn't surprise me.

Something I want to know is, is this a poll and Jon and company goes with the most popular choice?  Or are these the three options Jon presents to increasingly impatient customers?

 I think they're all good options, but I feel that option A has the best ultimate reward.  Taken together the three choices do a lot of things--Boxes get out the door for those who are really tired of waiting and ready to revolt over a missed "by Christmas" promise.  New products get added to the Makibox catalog, production can begin over the entire product line, and people start seeing Makiboxes in the wild.

I was one of the first to make a decision.  (What people are calling "option A."  I was also one of the first buyers.  Not one of the first 300, but not far behind them.  Frankly it was the price that attracted me.  I'd be a little upset to have to pay more, for any reason after all this.  And having to pay more--even a token price, would not be easy for me.

In a few of the responses I saw "Don't give anything away."  Uh. . .Those of us who ordered early, and endured the waiting and the irritating fork into pellet drive research, (Remember how close things seemed in June when we got to see the carriage moving for the first time?)  I feel that, we DO deserve a nod for our patience.  And Jon seems to agree.  He made informed decisions every step of the way, and, well his only sin is a little overconfidence.

If prices need to go up after the initial orders ship, I can understand that.  But I think it's also a good idea to offer some level of reward--tailored to our level of patience and faith in the pellet system--to those of us who've been here watching and waiting.

Logan Dorsey

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Nov 10, 2012, 9:22:33 AM11/10/12
to mak...@googlegroups.com
I would probably vote for option A, as long as I don't have to pay another $50 to ship the pellet drive to me.

Logan

Sent from my iPad

Stephane BUISSON

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Nov 10, 2012, 9:47:45 AM11/10/12
to mak...@googlegroups.com
Jon,

"Hotswap type of option" 

the main thing is if the "or" is inclusive or exclusive

I do understand your point to shared ressources (PSU & onboard) to keep the cost down. 
But Hopefully you had understand mine about the advantages to have both filament and pellet options in same unit at different time.

Do-ability make me choose option A

But both options are not incompatible, at first I was thinking it may be a stackable option for space allocation and ease of update.

What do you think ?


Pensee

Makibox # 301


_____________________________________________

Michael Ziolek

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Nov 10, 2012, 10:39:30 AM11/10/12
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Is that shipped cost?

Jonathan Buford

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Nov 10, 2012, 10:44:52 AM11/10/12
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Of course not including shipping. That is the sales price, shipping cost will vary depending on where.

Michael Ziolek

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Nov 10, 2012, 10:47:29 AM11/10/12
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Ah true, I forgot the "where" part. Why don't you raise the price after shipping out the orders up until now? It only makes sense that the people that pre ordered get the great deal and then the people later pay for the pellet upgrade. Early adopters should get the upgrade free, the higher cost after us should offset the free part. 

Jonathan Buford

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Nov 10, 2012, 10:48:43 AM11/10/12
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That is the plan.

Sandro Fouche

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Nov 10, 2012, 10:52:29 AM11/10/12
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I have to admit that I am exactly opposed to Andy's position.

While I appreciate the idea that Makibox shouldn't have to bear unreasonable costs, hopefully they *never* planned on selling these printers to us at cost. I expected that Jon requested $300/printer because he reasonably expected the total cost of development to allow for production and sale of at least the initial run of printers for that price. Which is why I also did not complain about spending $50 for shipping, because Makibox should not have to subsidize getting the printers to my door.

But time and opportunity have costs as well. Some of us paid for this project back in February 2012, and we're quickly approaching the 1-year mark. The initial plan was a filament printer with .5 kg of filament, shipped in late March/early April 2012. Fulfilling the same promise in December 2012, represents 8 months of delay for a pellet system that Andy is suggesting we now pay extra to obtain. Notably, this isn't Jon's position, Andy appears to be making the offer charitably, but I also notice that Andy isn't listed in the first 300 supporters. I'm also guessing that $300 isn't as much money to him as it is to some of us others.

Some of us who have projects that would benefit from 3D printed parts have been waiting since early spring for the A6 to ship. You can go back to that mid-feburary timeframe and Jon mentions that "electronics are the longest lead-time" items, and he ordered the first sets back then. Back then we expected to have initial units by summer at the latest. Assuming that the delay hasn't caused people other opportunity costs is a bit myopic. I don't expect the Makibox A6 to stay at $300 for future buyers, but Jon and co. made some commitments to their initial backers that I think need to be honored.

Michael Ziolek

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Nov 10, 2012, 10:59:45 AM11/10/12
to mak...@googlegroups.com
I agree with this. Not that Sandro is, but we should not get too
divided over all this. Jon and team are doing great work and the delay
sucks but is not something that I didn't expect. Any time you have a
project like this it will run into snags and issues that will delay. I
agree it shouldn't be of extra cost as it is a choice that was made
(the pellet feeder) and that caused some delay. I think that with the
added price on future units the "free" pellet feeders for the initial
orders would be covered. Also, as an idea since there are "charitable"
suggestions as was mentioned: Jon, why not get a bunch of the
stainless casings custom laser etched or something and charge more for
them, kind of making it a more expensive "special edition" in case
people like Andy (or those who have extra cash) can buy that as a way
of saying thanks and contributing more funds while at the same time
having a nice reminder?

Robert Ehresman

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Nov 10, 2012, 11:29:01 AM11/10/12
to mak...@googlegroups.com
Jon:

Let's seen now.... have my cake and eat it too. DEFINITELY A.

But seriously...

I personally think you should offer to ship filament now pellet later,
and SELL the pellet upgrade to folk who take filament now. Offer a
filament option for sale to those who wait for pellet too.

I actually see value added in having both sorts of heads. I imagine
filament is less fuss overall, but limiting in a number of ways such as
coloring and recycling,

There is also business value in modularizing your print head design. I
imagine you could at some time in the future offer, say, a paint head or
pen head that would allow us to do some color details to models after
they have been finished in a monochrome plastic but before they are
dismounted from the base. I confess I dont know how hard it would be to
re-register a model or a different print head to do second pass work.
But I would certainly be interested in the capability and open my check
book to get it.

Others have said dont fail your business to be fair to the customers. I
agree with that.

I bought a filament printer for USD$300. I would be satisfied with a
filament printer for USD$300. You added pellets. I would pay extra at a
point in the future to be able to work with pellets.

Frankly, I have been mildly annoyed with the foray into pelletdom
because of the effect on delivery schedule. I have captured the
enthusiasm for it, mind you, but havent enjoyed waiting.

Cheers;
Bob
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Jeff Mawhirter

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Nov 10, 2012, 11:30:46 AM11/10/12
to mak...@googlegroups.com

My vote is for option a. My situation is that it's my son's final year in high school and our time to play with this toy (our first 3d printer) together is limited by that. Fwiw, I intend to buy another Makibox for him to take to whichever engineering university he ends up going to.

Thanks for asking,
Jeff

Jone Brattland

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Nov 10, 2012, 12:47:22 PM11/10/12
to mak...@googlegroups.com, Jonathan Buford
Hi,
I'd prefer option A any day. Having waited since February I'm quite eager
to get my hands on the printer, but I'm still very interested in the
pellet drive.

BTW: I ordered with the 5 kg filament option. Will I receive 5 kg filament
before Christmas or will it be a mix of filament and pellets? I'm guessing
you have a good solution for this, but I'm not sure I will be happy with 5
kg of pellets for the price of 5 kg filament... ;)

På Sat, 10 Nov 2012 11:16:58 +0100, skrev Jonathan Buford
<jon.b...@gmail.com>:
Sendt med Operas revolusjonerende e-postprogram: http://www.opera.com/mail/

kenneth rooks

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Nov 10, 2012, 12:57:17 PM11/10/12
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Option C please. I've waited this long and the pellet idea is the best way to go.

Anton vK

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Nov 10, 2012, 1:29:38 PM11/10/12
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option C please. Like to go for the best design and implementation.

Thanks good work