Looking for suggestions on M2 PLA adhesion problems

[Michael Neame]

Hi everybody,

I'm looking for some ideas on what I'm doing wrong; I'm having prints come off the heated bed of my M2, with two possibly separate problems:

A: When printing the brim, the print head seems to 'pick up' previous lines of plastic and drag them along. (Picture attached) Eventually the whole thing wraps around the print head.
B: When about 3 or 4 layers into the print, the base of the print starts to lose its grip on the bed, seemingly starting at corners, eventually the whole print comes loose.

My first 5 or so prints stuck like glue to the print bed, so i'm not sure what's changed. I'm doing the following:

* warming the print bed to 60c, cleaning the bed with windex and wiping with a lint-free paper towel
* The first layer seems to be decently 'mushed' against the surface for more contact area. if anything my z-height is better calibrated than at first.
* using a bed temp of 65c didn't seem to change it

It's winter in Canada, so it's not particularly humid at the moment. The basement where my M2 lives is about 14c, so a bit cold.

Any suggestions? I've seen enough people saying it should work with bare glass, so i wanted to give this a fair shot before trying the tape or hairspray.

thanks!
Mike

[Ross Mosshart]

Well, I personally don't use any heat on the platform when i use PLA, and I cover the build surface with blue painters tape.

(I suspect your picture was too large and did not properly attach!) 

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[Q*bert]

I've been using hair spray and I much prefer it over painter's tape or Kapton tape.  I use an unscented  hair spray that is extra sticky (has 'mega" or a "3x" or so,e such thing on the label.)  Spray a heavy coat a cold glass plate and let it dry as your bed heats up.  This coating will be good as is for 1 to 3 prints, and then scrape lightly and re-coat (hot or cold) for more.  Eventually I'll take the glass off and wash it in warm water with dish soap and start over.  I do use a heated bed at 60 degrees for PLA.

I find this much more reliable and even easier than tape.  Not my idea, so google it for more info.

[Tim]

I've been using blue painter's tape, but it requires a good wipe-down with alcohol first.  Sometimes the adhesion is so good that I have to soak everything in warm water to get it to peel off.  I've been meaning to try the hairspray, but of the things I've tried so far, the blue painter's tape worked the best.

It's also useful to consider what kind of surface each material gives you.  Bare glass leaves a perfectly flat, shiny surface, which may or may not be what you want on a particular piece.  Kapton tape also leaves a smooth surface.  Blue painter's tape leaves a lightly patterned surface that is similar in texture to all the other surfaces of the printed part, which is one reason I like it.

I've found that bare glass is hit-or-miss.  I try to maintain the same conditions every time I print:  a level bed, the same distance from the head, glass cleaned with alcohol, constant temperature, but I can't find any predictable reason why one print will stick and another one won't.

[SergeyK]

I do exactly what you do and it works fine.
The only possible difference is that I'm not just wiping the windex, but forcefully rub it, sometimes 2-3 times, especially after long pauses. When I do it that way, I can actually feel the difference - the extra friction developing under the towel.

[Michael Neame]

Hmm, I'll try that.  I was wiping gently as i was unsure if I'd throw off my bed leveling.

And for plan B, I've gotten some hairspray to see if that helps. It sounds less finicky than the tape (but I'll end up doing the tape anyway when i start playing with ABS)

[Charles]

In my short experience with pla printing I have found certain colors and suppliers of pla makes the difference on whether it sticks to bare glass

or not, I have some silver pla that was cheap that will never stick to bare glass but adheres well to blue tape or Kapton but for the most part

bare very clean glass works great.

[Michael Neame]

Hey everybody!

Thanks for all the input.  I decided to get some hairspray and give it a shot.  (I got Alberto Extra Hold).

It worked like a charm!  great bed adhesion, still get a fairly glossy surface where it was on the bed, and I had no need to fiddle and restart on any of the 3 prints I did last night!

My basement smells like a barber shop (and I applied the hairspray to the bed outside), but I think I'll be sticking with this approach as I'm now a happy camper. 

cheers!
Mike

[Galen Collins]

Ditto here... It sure beats the tape approach.

    Galen

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[Q*bert]

I use unscented hair spray and it has almost no odor. 

[Michael Neame]

Yeah, I was choosing between 'max hold, with scent' and 'regular hold, without scent', and went with the max hold :)

[Tim]

I went to the grocery store to get some hairspray yesterday, and found that Suave has "max hold" and "extreme hold", without explaining what the difference is;  also, they have some that comes in an aerosol spray can, and some in a pump spray bottle.  I figured the aerosol spray probably has more even coverage, but the pump spray may be a bit easier to control without covering the whole M2 with it.

For those who use hairspray, what are you doing to protect the rest of the M2?  How many applications does it take to start gumming up the rails, the Z-screw, the endstop switches, the idler pulleys, etc., etc.?

[Michael Neame]

Well, (and this is with maybe 2 days of experience),  I've been taking the glass plate out of the M2 and spraying it outside, because I fear all the things you mentioned :P    So far I've been cleaning it with soap every 2 prints, and re-applying hairspray, then waiting a hour for it to 'set'.  Makes me want another piece of glass, though.

I'm gonna try re-spraying on top of a sheet I've just printed with; I'll report back here how well that works.

[Kain Kulinski]

I got my M2 yesterday. It took me about 6 hours to build it. I have been printing pretty much the whole time since. I took a 3 hours nap this morning.  I ordered a couple extra peices of glass and have tried a few different methods of getting stuff to stick. So far the hair spray has been by far the best!  I have only printed in PLA so far but have had no issues. Painters tape was decent but took longer and didnt work as well. With hair spray I put 2 coats on and put it in the machine, heated everything up and started printing. So far everything that Ive printed on it has been great.  The tape had a few little bases come loose while printing.  

[Michael Howland]

I did sort of an impromptu writeup on hairspray, why it works, and what to look for in the ingredients on this MG thread. https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/makergear/gE82rVxMPdg I still need to post a video of how I treat my glass but have been very busy lately.

Mike

[Travis]

I had hit and miss luck with red PLA, but upping the bed temp to 70*C seemed to help. I tried bare glass with no heat and could never get anything to stick. Blue tape and Kapton helped as well, and green tape worked almost a little too well. Tried hairspray a couple of times but found tape works better.

The biggest difference was when I ran out of red and went to natural - almost night and day difference, the clear is much less finicky. I suspect the pigmentation slightly alters the properties of the material, and would explain why some colors are more difficult to work with as well. The ultimate solution for small parts is to print on a raft (option in the Creator software), I just printed a batch of 30 ~1/4" 'pins' I guess you could say, and didn't lose a single one.

My bed prep consists of spraying rubbing alcohol on a paper towel, wiping the bed down and then hitting it again with the dry side. I also let the bed warm up for 10-15 minutes before starting to let the temps stabilize. I think that is key - there is quite a difference between the thermal expansion of glass and plastic so keeping temperature fluctuations to a minimum will work wonders. I have considered insulating the bottom of the HBP, would probably speed up warmup and reduce heat cycles; and maybe conserve a bit of power. It may make using a thicker piece of glass possible too (less prone to bowing/warping, the center of my glass bows off the aluminum just a touch, which can't be helping at all).

Just my $.02 on the subject..

[Tim]

I still say that I'd like to have a sintered aluminum suction clamp.  And I would, if it didn't cost $1K and take a good inch off of the vertical work area.  Seems like the ultimate method for repeatability and reliability.

[mathisyourfriend]

Sorry if some of this wasn't clear to me:

"My bed prep consists of spraying rubbing alcohol on a paper towel, wiping the bed down and then hitting it again with the dry side."

Is this on blue tape?  91% isopropyl?

"It may make using a thicker piece of glass possible too."

are you using the stock 3.8mm borosilicate from MG?

My main concern is keeping things simple around kids.  I'll mess with hairspray, cheaper glass, etc. on my own but when I do 4-6 hour demos alone I want simple/safe.  

Thanks

[Michael Howland]

When I do demos I just treat my glass with hairspray ahead of time. Treatment can be done whenever. Treat it and store it for weeks. I have. Just take it out and off you go. Cleanup is with warm water and a scraper or your hand. Simply wipe it off (might need to use a fingernail every now and then). I don't even use soap for risk of residue. It is very robust and forgiving.

Mike 

[travis....@gmail.com]

I use the alcohol on bare glass and on any sort of tape as well. For masking tape I use very little alcohol as the tape will absorb it (and may muck with the adhesive as well), and I let it 'cook off' a bit before starting. It seems to work best to wipe things down when cool, I have tried to wipe a hot bed and it would streak, leading me to wonder if the hot alcohol affects or degrades the paper towel in some way. I use whatever extremely old alcohol I had in the medicine cabinet, 70% I think; nothing special...or hazardous or hard to find.

Glass - yes, still using the MG supplied piece. I have one side bare and the other taped. Leaving the tape on while it is against the HBP doesn't seem to have any adverse effects, although I changed that about when I went to natural PLA and haven't really needed the tape since. Only thing I can guess is that it might be really baked on now, but nothing a little elbow grease can't fix. We will see once I need to remove it! I would like to try a thicker piece as I have the same issues as others with never being able to get the bed perfectly level but I'm not sure the heater has the umph to heat it, at least in a reasonable timeframe.

Sent from my iPhone

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[Tim]

I've never had troubles with painter's tape baking itself to the glass, but I've definitely had trouble with the painter's tape getting baked onto the PLA, making it incredibly hard to get off.  I use 70% isopropyl alcohol, which is what I had a full bottle of lying around, and I also find that wiping down the tape while the bed is heated is a good way of getting bits of paper towel streaked all over the bed.

[mathisyourfriend]

I always use old white t-shirts as rags for wiping acetone on kapton.  Paper towels seem to be asking for trouble on anything but bare glass (even then).

[Charles]

 

If I recall I think Rick said you don't use your BPH with blue painters tape, I don't use the heated bed with blue tape and have had great results with

my prints staying put, perhaps a little too well.

[mathisyourfriend]

That's how I saw Rick and Josh run the M2s at PAX East (blue tape/unheated bed).  That's my preference for out of the house printing (on my own I'll be buying hairspray for myself for the first time I can remember).

[Brendan O'Reilly]

 I know this is an older post but I just wanted to add one more thought which has been big stress saver for me - SLOW DOWN.  

I was having a nightmare trying to get some Red PLA to stick on parts with lots of sharp corners (gears).  It just seemed to keep on lifting/pulling on sharp corners or when changing direction filling the first layer.  After trying LOTS of different settings I tried slowing the first layer speed down to 20%.  I was expecting to see the same train wreck in slow motion but instead the first layer printed perfectly.  It's a bit painful to watch but this approach seems to be a lot more forgiving about temperatures, layer height, surface preparation, etc.

I hope this helps someone.  

Cheers, Brendan. 

[Ketil Froyn]

I've started printing the first layer at a set speed, rather than a percentage. Adhesion is what I'm looking for on the first layer, and different perimeter and infill quality isn't a concern. So I use 30mm/s on the first layer. That is fairly fast but works very well for me, provided the bed is squeaky clean.

-Ketil

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[Adrian Canoso]

I've been having success with hairspray (as others have mentioned in the forum). I haven't had any PLA parts warp (haven't tried ABS yet) and parts are held down really well. To remove parts I've been popping them off using a heavy kitchen knife, sliding the blade between the part and the glass, with a little momentum the part should pop off cleanly. 

I've printed the same part in the same spot 4 times now (calibration) and there have been no adhesion problems. 

I grabbed Loreal Elnett Satin from Walgreens. I basically looked for anything that was matte/satin and chose whatever said it had the strongest hold. Not the cheapest stuff but it's changed my perception on how easy printing can get with this approach. 

Application:

• Remove the glass bed from the printer
  
• Lay it in a kitchen sink
  
• Spray an even coat making sure to cover the entire bed
  
• Wait about a minute for the coat to set
  
• Repeat 2 more times for a total of 3 coats.
  
• Let the bed dry and re-install it into he M2

When it's time to lay a fresh coat, take the glass off and clean under water, dry and re-apply.

On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 8:27:53 PM UTC-7, Michael Neame wrote:

Hi everybody,

I'm looking for some ideas on what I'm doing wrong; I'm having prints come off the heated bed of my M2, with two possibly separate problems:

A: When printing the brim, the print head seems to 'pick up' previous lines of plastic and drag them along. (Picture attached) Eventually the whole thing wraps around the print head.
B: When about 3 or 4 layers into the print, the base of the print starts to lose its grip on the bed, seemingly starting at corners, eventually the whole print comes loose.

My first 5 or so prints stuck like glue to the print bed, so i'm not sure what's changed. I'm doing the following:

* warming the print bed to 60c, cleaning the bed with windex and wiping with a lint-free paper towel

* The first layer seems to be decently 'mushed' against the surface for more contact area. if anything my z-height is better calibrated than at first.
* using a bed temp of 65c didn't seem to change it

It's winter in Canada, so it's not particularly humid at the moment.   The basement where my M2 lives is about 14c, so a bit cold.

[Theo McCormick]

I am also having good luck with Hair spray for ABS and PLA. Don't forget to shake the can before applying. Bed height is the biggest issue for adhesion in my opinion. If the bed is level and the right height warping and adhesion problems are minimized. 

[Jin Choi]

I came across this thread because I have been dealing with the exact same problems as the original poster for a few hours now: initially, I had no adhesion problems until I did have adhesion problems. Tried cleaning with 70% isopropyl alcohol, that just clouded the glass. Finally, what appears to have worked is soap and water. I took the glass to the sink and washed it like a dish. Seems to be working well again. I'm going to try all the rest of the suggestions in this thread over time.

[Dale Reed]

Jin,

 

Yep.  What I try to do to clean the glass:

1.  Get some "Free" (no fragrance, no color) laundry detergent, name brand.

2.  Wash glass in warm water with the detergent.

3.  Rinse thoroughly, also in warm water.

4.  Dry the glass with a clean cloth -- do not let the water dry on the glass.  If you get the glass really clean, most of the water will sheet off nicely anyway.  But don't leave any droplets to dry, which allows the crud in city water to dry onto the glass as the water evaporates.

 

As for the clean cloth, machine wash some cotton rags (I use old heavy athletic shirts) in that same "Free" detergent, and machine dry with NO softener or dryer sheet.

 

I also got a bag of microfiber cloths for final wiping of any dust.  They really don't "dry" the glass well, but they are good for the final wipe before printing.

 

Now, I'm one of those that uses hair spray.  But getting the glass squeaky clean is the first step before whatever else you do for bed prep, be it tape, hairspray, glue, or whatever.

Dale

[Joe Williams]

As for keeping hairspray off the slides/guides/etc, I keep a wad of paper towels that's folded up to the right size under my filament roll.  Before spraying, I pull the glass all the way forward, then unfold and hold the towels so they create a wall along the back and left side of the glass plate to catch any overspray.  I'm right-handed and spray from the right front corner toward the middle.  Very little spray hits the towel, but nothing gets past it.

[Jamil F.]

Yeah i had that issue before and tried everything, but then i adjusted the gap so the hot nozzle is about .1 - .2mm from bed but does not peel the first layer off, and that cured the none sticking first layer, but i just clean the bed with windex, and then i wipe the bed with a water wet paper towel.

[Tracy Potter]

hi

aqua net super extra hold is what I like.  Clean in soap an water and spray it on.  i just keep printing over and over giving a quick spray in between prints.  pla works good this way and small abs prints.  it i print a large abs part say 4" x 4" the corners curl up.  any ideas on how to avoid this with larger abs prints

thanks

[Toby]

 

My prints in PLA were fine on heated glass as long as I was around 4"x4".  But when I moved up to 6-7" I started getting curling at 

the corners.  I wasn't keen on using aerosols so I went with Suave max hold pump.  So far it works (but this is only a couple days now) as long as the coverage is complete. To get it I take the glass off and place it on a piece of foamboard and apply the pump.  I've checked the bed level several times after doing this and I've never seen it get messed up by taking the glass off and on.

.  

The scent's not bad at first but it does seem to build up if the room isn't ventilated well enough.

When I bought the stuff I had a funny feeling the sales clerk was thinking, "What's this scruffy-looking guy doing buying hairspray?"  Somehow I didn't think I would improve in her estimation if I told her, "I need this to keep my 3d parts stuck to the bed."

[Toby]

I forgot to mention- there's a tendency for the pump to create pools on the glass rather than spread evenly like i imagine an aerosol would.  To fix that I let it dry a little bit and then go over it with a foam roller I got from a craft store (hobby lobby).  this spreads it out evenly.