ABS delamination

[Jin Choi]

I'm trying to print some larger parts in ABS, and while I don't have any issues with adhesion, I am getting massive delaminations everywhere. I know the answer is a heated enclosure, but that is another project altogether and I want somebody else to figure it out first. Is there any stopgap that anyone has found effective to help with cracking?

I'm thinking along the lines of adjusting extruder or bed temperatures (lower? hotter?), or in the extreme case, ordering some heat lamps. Any help would be appreciated.

[jimc]

Unfortunately jin you cant stop mother nature. We can make little teeaks here and there and come up with settings that can help....slightly but abs shrinks and thats all there is to it. This is why i use the pet+ instead. An enclosure helps a little. A heated enclosure is the true sure fire way to do it.

[Levi8than]

I think you need to keep the lower layer hot while the next layer applies.

I've only been printing ABS for a couple of weeks now, but I'ave had some success with a aluminum foil hat on the print head.  Basically, make a boat shaped hat with the bowden tube running up th emiddle of it.  Fold it down to get close to the prints, but not hit anything, and it'll ride your x axis back and forth and help contain some of the heat where the hot end is.

This has worked for small prints, but not for tall prints where you're nowhere near the bed heat. An enclosed box may be the right solution here, but I don't have that.  And unfortunately I need to open the window and put a fan at the window otherwise the room gets a little intense to be in, so I'm sure that's not helping either.

Others may have better advice.

[Jin Choi]

We should hold a little design contest for aluminum foil origami boats.

[Levi8than]

Maybe add a hair-dryer/heat gun setup with an air diverter similar to this Erik's dual extruder design.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:280766

So that on abs prints, it heats rather than cools.

[Tony Shulthise]

Have you tried playing with (upping) your extrusion width to layer height ratio?

[Tony Shulthise]

[Ronald Leung]

Heated enclosure is the way to go, you can build a simple ugly enclosure out of a cardboard box that fits over your machine and cut a hole in it and attach a hair dryer to provide some heat. Moving the machine away from the window will also help but the fumes from abs may be hard to bear.

Www.justfilaments.com

[Levi8than]

I don't see this ratio as a setting in slic3r.  But I did see the layer height option, which I assume has the same effect.  Reducing the layer height from .25 to .15 has no effect on mid-print delamination.  I see separations start around the 1cm mark of the print, and pick up almost like clockwork every 7 to 10 mm after that.  I'll post pictures tomorrow if you're interested.

[Tony Shulthise]

I'm not sure but I think it may be called extrusion percentage in Slicer.  The idea is to try making your trace width wider relative to the layer height.  I'm not sure it will work.  I haven't had any delamination issues with ABS yet other than layers being weak for small cross sections.  Also, printing lower layers and smaller width traces seems to help with strength for some parts.  Jimc is probably the most experienced person in the group when it comes to ABS so I'd put a lot of weight on any advice he posts.

I've tried the cardboard box trick and it didn't help with ABS warping for me.  It also caused my control card to overheat.  I believe that isolating your printer and keeping the ambient temperature around 90F using some kind of easy to make enclosure would prevent problems caused by drafts (room ventilation, people walking by, fans, etc...) and minimize outside affects.  However, it takes more than 110F ambient temperature to prevent ABS warping so that's why I built an enclosure with the motors and electronics isolated from the heat.  I haven't finished it yet so I can't say how much it helps with ABS warp.

I haven't read back through this thread but make sure your part fan is OFF for most ABS prints.  I think the fan should only be used for prints that are small enough or have small enough cross sections that they can't cool down much between layers.

[Bryan Boettcher]

The setting Tony is talking about is in the Advanced tab under the slicing profiles (not filament or machine).  Normally slic3r defaults them to "0" which is "autocalculate".  You will get better results from slic3r if you do the calibration to fill in those values yourself.

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[Gary Schwartz]

Infra-red lamps.  Heat the model, not the machine.  Heating the left rear is a challenge I've yet to win.  Accepting and attacking the challenge could benefit us all.

[A. Elias]

Gary,

How well has this worked for you?  What type of lamps do you use?

ADam

[Toby]

How about these mini heat lamps that people use for reptile cages.  Maybe 2 or 3 of them could be clipped onto the M2 frame and pointed at the model.  (Print in black ABS for better heat absorption?)

http://www.amazon.com/Zilla-Halogen-Dome-Fixture-Terrarium/dp/B009GHI32K/ref=sr_1_1?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1396456465&sr=1-1&keywords=small+heat+lamp

[Tony Shulthise]

This is just a guess on my part but I don't believe controlling part temperature will be possible using IR lamps.  You may be able to do it with some kind of feedback sensor to close the loop.  I tend to underestimate the prowess of many Makers though so I definitely would not rule this approach out as a possibility to control ABS warp for someone who has a lot of time to design, test and iterate.

I've not yet seen pictures of parts printed with and without using IR lamps and everything else being equal.  

We need a part  geometry that cannot be printed in ABS without tricks to use as a benchmark... sort of like the torture test object used in Make Magazine's testing except designed to invoke the worst properties of ABS via the part geometry.

[Gary Schwartz]

ADam,

I'm using two 60 Watt Halogens ... fairly small ... 50mm face diameter.

Results are inconclusive.  I haven't run any controlled tests, nor have I been able to position lamps to heat all surfaces of model.

I plan to pursue this, but after annual migration to Michigan.

We've tried to resist the forces with different bed treatments.  I'm not aware of a consistently successful approach.  I doubt that this approach will be successful.  I believe our answer lies in controlling the forces.

Here's an interesting read:

http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/html/watts-heat-lights-lamp-heat-output.html

I'd like to hear what the group has to say about the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_transition

Glass transition appears to be our enemy.  I found the table of Tg for various materials (left side, several paragraphs down) thought-provoking.  Note the difference between PET & ABS. 

[Jin Choi]

I've been shopping for lamps, briefly and lackadaisically. Can you link the ones you are using if they are available online?

What is the target temperature we want? Tony's heated bed thread cites 70-90C.

Here's a thread by rsilvers on an experiment with an IR lamp and a Printrbot (ABS on a plywood printer with no heated bed). Surely this could be made to work. The extrusion failure he mentions is probably due to uncontrolled heating of the extruder; some focusing or shielding should eliminate that.

One problem on the M2 (for such activities) is that the extruder nozzle/gantry clearance is small. Good for build volume, but shadows the area we most want to get to. Something like this might be appropriate for under-gantry mounting if it could be done safely.

This is the part I was having trouble printing: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:37999, printed back face down. I think any thick walled box will show similar defects.

[jimc]

I checked out that list. Just keep in mind, dont use thise temps as an absolute number. Those vary alot with formulation of the plastic. If you look all the way at the bottom it has nylon listed at around 47 deg. Now we all know thats not right for any of the nylons we use like 618. I believe the madesolid pet and tglass are a bit higher that that. I have another roll if pet here from coex that is real high. Higher than abs. I find that unprintable though.

[Tony Shulthise]

For those who want to know why printed parts curl up or delaminate but don't understand why.... Here's a word picture of what is happening...

Short version...

ABS has a higher coeff of thermal expansion than PLA and PET (about double) so it shrinks about twice as much as it cools.  That causes higher stresses that warp the part upward and inward.

ABS has a higher glass transition temp than PLA and PET (110C vs around 70C) so it becomes rigid over fewer layers than PLA or PET which means it has less time to distribute stresses evenly between layers.

Longer version...

You have the printed part top layer at X degrees (usually 30-60C)

You are applying a string of plastic at Y degrees (180-230C)

That's a 120-200C change in temperature.

The plastic contracts Z microns/mm as it cools from Y to X degrees.  ABS contracts around 73.8 m/m*K which is the same as 73.8 microns of contraction per meter of plastic per degree C change in temp.  So, a 150 mm long strand that goes from 230C to 30C will contract (73.8 microns/m*C)*(0.150m)*(200C) = 2.2. mm if its not constrained in any way.  If you constrain it then its like a stretched rubber band attached to the structure.

When you print using molten plastic, its the equivalent of wrapping stretched rubber bands around a cardboard box.  Every layer adds some amount of tension (an extra rubber band) away from the base.  That causes the printed structure to want to pull the outsides in so you see the bottom curl up and layers delaminate in some cases.

The closer you can keep the temperature of the part to the temperature of the extruded plastic the less stress you will induce which means less warping and delamination.

PLA has much less warpage because its coefficient of thermal expansion is much lower than ABS and it also has a lower transition temp. having a lower transition temperature means the layers can stay soft longer so instead of laying the rubber bands down on a rigid part it has some flex which allows it to distribute stresses over many layers instead of just a few.

The heated bed helps with reducing the temperature change of an ABS part for the first layers but as it gets taller the heat from the bed doesn't warm the new layers.  Some people have had some success printing a brim wall outside of their outer part wall to trap the bed heat and force it to rise up the printed part wall.  That seems like it should have a significant effect but I haven't tried it.  I'd like to see pictures of a troublesome part geometry printed with and without the extra heat retaining wall to see how much difference it makes.

[Gary Schwartz]

Jin,

I bought them at W-Mart.

I think we need to have the entire model on the same side of the Tg of the material we're printing in order to avoid both lifting and delamination.  It's my bet that if you solve your delamination issue, you'll encounter lifting.

I suspect that we can improve by making design and print setting changes.  For example, reduce infill density as much as feasible.  Gain strength with additional perimeters.  This could probably allow successful printing of somewhat larger models.  But, I think the change in coefficient of thermal expansion associated with crossing the Tg line will eventually bite us.

Design interior "stress breaks" that disconnects end-to-end infill.  Try different infill patterns.  S3D, as you know, will print 0, 45, 90, -45 degree alternating infill.  Probably 30 as well.

This would be a great subject for graduate study.

[Levi8than]

>>Some people have had some success printing a brim wall outside of their outer part wall to trap the bed heat and force it to rise up the printed part wall.

Is there a way to do this automatically in the options of S3D/Slic3r, or are you suggesting that you add this brim be added to the design?

[Gary Schwartz]

Tony,

I like your post.

I'll try my chairside organizer with a wall around it. 

On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 2:32:48 PM UTC-7, Tony Shulthise wrote:

[Erik Akia]

You could do the wall with a skirt that had as many layers as are in the model.

Erik

--

[Ketil Froyn]

In slic3r, check out the tooltip for the Print Settings -> Skirt and brim -> Skirt height. Or, I can just write it here. It says:

"Height of skirt expressed in layers. Set this to a tall value to use skirt as a shield against drafts. (default: 1)"

Set it to 9999, and you should get a skirt as tall as your print.

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[jimc]

i didnt know about the 9999 ketil, thanks! 

gary, just an fyi, waaay back when we were all trying your organizer out i printed it with the tall skirt and i didnt get much of a difference.  

[Gary Schwartz]

Dang!  Thanks Jim.  I owe you a lot of filament.

On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 6:03:38 PM UTC-7, jimc wrote:

[jimc]

no problem gary. your more than welcome to try it if you want. the only way i got your organizer to print without warp was in pet. thats a tough one for sure with abs.

[Levi8than]

Heat rises, and the cold air falls, so I'd probably try 2 things.

1: tall skirt, but move it back a little further away from the thing I'm printing.

2. put a hat on it.  For the short term, I'll try my upside-down origami aluminum foil boat on the filament drive that I've been using for small prints.  It gets really hot when I use it, sort of keeps the heat reflecting down.  I'd think that + the wall might just be enough for small prints (small x-y area, not z).

For bigger prints... maybe we could come up with a box idea that keeps the motors outside.  With brushes for the interfaces, so the box could grow as the print bed moves down.... it's an idea I've been thinking about.

On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 6:03:38 PM UTC-7, jimc wrote:

[Gary Schwartz]

Levi....,

I assume that you successfully print, without delamination or lifting, models you consider small.  Correct?

What are the upper limits on your "small" prints?    X, Y, Z

[Joseph Trapasso]

>I assume that you successfully print, without delamination or lifting, models you consider small.  Correct?

>What are the upper limits on your "small" prints?    X, Y, Z

Nope.  Everything I've printed over 3cm tall has had some amount of separation.  I've had some luck with the abs-acetone slurry.  Without it, I get lifting.  With it, I get separation between the layers randomly above 3cm.  adding the aluminum foil hat seems to reduce this separation.  Before it, I got prints that I could peel apart with my thumbnail.

so, no I haven't gotten any tall ABS prints I'm really happy with yet.  I haven't tried going beyond 5 inches in either x or y direction on abs yet.  Just on PLA.

Joe

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[Levi8than]

I tried printing with a 2 loop skirt as tall as my print.  Alone this didn't do much.

On my second print, I did the skirt AND put my aluminum foil hat on the hotend so it rides the x-axis, and holds the heat in.

But even with that it still wasn't perfect, but it was better.

On a tall cylindrical print that used to give me 7 or 8 separation points where I could split the layers with my thumbnail.

On this print there was only one place I could split my print.

now even with that, this data isn't perfect.  I'm not sure what happened on this print compared to previous prints, but this one has many more zits and even a clear bulge-seem on the skirt.

I need to remeasure my filament and check my slic3r settings.

[Robert S]

I started playing with ABS this weekend now that I'm feeling better with PLA.  I made an enclosure for the M2 to keep any air drafts out and at least keep a semi-warm environment.  I've been testing with the circlecube calibration thing http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:170922    It a smallish 20mmx20mmx20mm.  I'm using Octave White ABS.  I've read through this thread and several others trying to get dialed in as close as possible.  I've got a decent print that stayed on the bed and the top and bottom look pretty good.  The sides not visibly bad either. However while the layers are not visibly separating they are not stuck particularly well together either.  I can pry them apart with mild effort and the vertical part snaps off easily.   Strings of ABS can be pulled away.  Bed@110, Temp@220, 0.175 layer, 1 multiplier and .35 width.  I feel like I'm pretty close but need some tweak to get the layers to bond better.  I'm hoping all this discussion around creating a "heated" enclosure is for the larger more ambitious prints.  I attached the factory file if somebody can tell what to tweak, I've tried a number of variations.

[Bryan Boettcher]

ABS should be at 245C.

On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 4:35 PM, Robert S <resc...@gmail.com> wrote:

I started playing with ABS this weekend now that I'm feeling better with PLA.  I made an enclosure for the M2 to keep any air drafts out and at least keep a semi-warm environment.  I've been testing with the circlecube calibration thing http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:170922    It a smallish 20mmx20mmx20mm.  I'm using Octave White ABS.  I've read through this thread and several others trying to get dialed in as close as possible.  I've got a decent print that stayed on the bed and the top and bottom look pretty good.  The sides not visibly bad either. However while the layers are not visibly separating they are not stuck particularly well together either.  I can pry them apart with mild effort and the vertical part snaps off easily.   Strings of ABS can be pulled away.  Bed@110, Temp@220, 0.175 layer, 1 multiplier and .35 width.  I feel like I'm pretty close but need some tweak to get the layers to bond better.  I'm hoping all this discussion around creating a "heated" enclosure is for the larger more ambitious prints.  I attached the factory file if somebody can tell what to tweak, I've tried a number of variations.

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[Robert S]

Hmmm.  When I tried 235-240 the first layer got messy so I stopped going higher.  Under those temps the first layer printed OK.  But I'll try it. Thanks.

[jimc]

i agree with bryan, i have printed roll after roll of abs and they have all gone down at 245. if you first layer is messy then that is due to your z-height adjustment. it is either printing too close or too far.

[Bryan Boettcher]

Higher temperatures are a trade off between surface finish and model strength.

If you're having problems on layers, you need to enable cooling or something similar.

[Robert S]

I tried 245 and it does indeed seem better.  Surface finish is pretty good I think.  Thanks for the tip Bryan.  I guess I was afraid to go that high but seems to work.  It sure does take disproportionately longer to get the bed to 110  than to 65.  Guess that comes with the territory right now. Thanks again.

[Bryan Boettcher]

Yeah, I have put cork insulator underneath my bed, and while it's heating I put a second cork insulator on top.  I print ABS at 230C on a 105C bed with PET tape.

[jimc]

i tried many different temps for the bed and abs. i seemed to find that there was a point where adhesion got to be less. atleast for me i found that 96deg was really good to print at. above 100 i saw no benefit and up at the 110 level it got to be less. 

[Ronald Leung]

Do you have problems with warping with bed temps that low? I noticed the problems with adhesion usually came from the abs warping and in effect separating the print from the bed. If I print at a higher bed temp, without warping, then adhesion isn't a problem. 

Http://www.JustFilaments.com

On 7 Apr, 2014, at 11:05, jimc <xtremekr...@gmail.com> wrote:

i tried many different temps for the bed and abs. i seemed to find that there was a point where adhesion got to be less. atleast for me i found that 96deg was really good to print at. above 100 i saw no benefit and up at the 110 level it got to be less. 

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[jimc]

Abs will warp no matter what your bed temp is. Heated bed wont cure that. I get best results right at 96. All higher temps have either been no different or a little worse. Ive tested all the way to 120.

[Gary Schwartz]

Pretty much the same for me.  I use 95 for first layer & 85 for the remaining layers.  Very good adhesion.  (ABS & Aquanet)​

      Gary
Make Better Things
Make Things Better

 

 

 

 

On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 8:05 PM, jimc <xtremekr...@gmail.com> wrote:

i tried many different temps for the bed and abs. i seemed to find that there was a point where adhesion got to be less. atleast for me i found that 96deg was really good to print at. above 100 i saw no benefit and up at the 110 level it got to be less. 

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[Robert S]

Well, thanks to the tips here I'm more dialed in on ABS.  I adjusted my ext temp up to 245 which is allowing the layers to stick better to each other.  I'm also using hairspray now, which I put two light coats on the glass.  It allowed me to lower the bed temp to 95 from 110 and still stick.  I've printed the same 1/2" x 1" part in the same spot 6 times and its still sticks but comes off easily enough when I need it to.  Only odd thing is a very slight deformation in the same first layer (or two) corner of the piece everytime.  And its not even the starting spot.  There was some mention of potentially introducing cooling on a small part but I'm not sure to what degree and it almost seems counter-intuitive for ABS.  Now I'm trying to improve the sides just a hair more, they are pretty good at .15 but feel like can squeeze a bit more out of it. I did add some of the suggestions on the acceleration and jerk settings.  Maybe something with my multiplier which is at 1 of width which is at .35.  Still testing.

BTW, for those of you having to go out and buy women's hairspray, I'm trying Consort Men's Hairspray Unscented which at least on small parts is working well enough.  I'll have to try something bigger to confirm its an option.  

[Robert S]

Looks like I may have solved the slight corner deformation by printing a 1 layer high 4-5 outline skirt/brim. The brim curled up a little in one corner but the piece itself did not.  Step by step getting there..

[Gary Schwartz]

Today I printed Thingiverse       light house 120316f      and experienced a bit of serendipity.

Used S3D @ 1.50 scale, .25mm layer height, 3 perimeters, Extruder 235 first layer, 225 remaining layers.  Bed 95 first layer, 85 remaining layers.  Aquanet Extra Superhold.  Black 1.75mm ABS from Monoprice, .35mm nozzle.

Finished print measures 140mm tall, 52mm across flat sides of hexagonal base.  Absolutely no delamination, and no lifting anywhere.  The base is as flat as the glass bed.  I used a raft at 100% only because the stl has no floor for the light house. I also used two small halogen lamps described in earlier post,

Here's the serendipity:  At a time about midway thru the print I placed an earlier 1.00 scale print of the same model on the HBP for visual comparison.  It stuck to the bed!  And it was at room temperature.  I now have a "Tacky Test" that I'll use to help determine best bed temperature.

I believe that much of my adhesion problem was due to bed temperature of 100-105, and at that temperature the hairspray was soupy.  But at 85-95 it's tacky. 

I also believe that the lower bed temperature reduces delamination because of the lower temperature differential between the base and upper portions of the model.  Maybe even to the point where 4 properly placed IR sources can come close to eliminating delamination and lifting.

It's been a good day.

[Gary Schwartz]

And another thing ... I've begun using infill pattern of 0,-45,90,45 on all my prints.  My intuition says that it might have a small effect on reducing corner lifting.  May be wishful thinking, but it is kinda pretty.

That reminds me that the infill pattern is also applied to solid layers.

[Jin Choi]

Light house model is not public.

I've found cylindrical objects do not warp for me, maybe because the shrinking stresses are different? Not sure entirely why that would be

[jimc]

I dont have much an issue with that either jin. Maybe its because all that pulling gorce isnt going on one corner point....just a guess.

Gary i have found the exact same thing with temps and hairspray. I run abs at 96. Over that and the spray definately gets softer and your print pulls off easier.

[Gary Schwartz]

Jin and all,

I plan to conduct some adhesion tests that evaluate the effects of bed temperature, bed surface treatment, and ???

My thought is to design and print a small simple model, then measure the force required to un-stick it.

I envision a 25mm x 25mm x 25mm cube with a vertical projection that serves as a lever for applying horizontal tipping force.

Five or more could be printed for each variable evaluated. 

* I'm looking for a source of a force measuring device & need help finding one.

* Any thoughts about my study?

This could be cooperative effort that produces a great deal of valuable information. 

On Friday, March 28, 2014 10:29:51 PM UTC-7, Jin Choi wrote:

[Joseph Trapasso]

Maybe something like a Charpy test hammer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charpy_impact_test

Or there are torque force sensors, like this one on sparkfun: https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9376

Just rig up a system of sliding the sensor or a post attached to it into the printout and keep pushing until it moves, and have an arduino with a display set to record the max force seen.  It could work.

Joe

--

[Jin Choi]

First layer height: effects of "squishing".
First layer temperature: does higher first layer help, or is it counter productive?

[Gary Schwartz]

Thanks Levi... & Jin.

We're off to a good start.

Levi... I'm hoping for an off-the-shelf device like a low force spring scale to get rough evaluation of concept.

[Gary Schwartz]

Levi...

After looking at the sensor I have to amend my reply.  It looks like a good way to go ... if it doesn't require much time to make a read-out.  Any thoughts there?

[Ed Nisley]

> a force measuring device

An extension spring applies fairly linear force vs. distance, so you could build a test fixture with a small windlass pulling a spring: the final position of the windlass gives you the spring extension and thus the ultimate force at the break-loose point. Simple, high-school science fair stuff, but quick & easy & reliable.

If you could find a linear spring scale with a max-hold pointer, that'd be exactly right.

Digital pull scales (similar to luggage weight scales) have very little compliance and require several seconds to settle, which would almost certainly miss the peak reading.

[jimc]

pete over at madesolid uses one in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpFZEl-cXv4

you can drop him an email and ask him where he got it.....just a thought

[Jin Choi]

This trigger pull scale sounds like what you describe, with max hold indicator, although it is only good up to 8 lbs and is only marked in 1/4 lbs.

http://www.amazon.com/Wheeler-309888-Trigger-Pull-Scale/dp/B004E4CZE2

[Gary Schwartz]

That is soo close to what I'm looking for.  ​But it lacks the precision we need.  1 oz. precision would work. 

      Gary
Make Better Things
Make Things Better

 

 

 

 

On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 8:03 AM, Jin Choi <jins...@mac.com> wrote:

This trigger pull scale sounds like what you describe, with max hold indicator, although it is only good up to 8 lbs and is only marked in 1/4 lbs.

http://www.amazon.com/Wheeler-309888-Trigger-Pull-Scale/dp/B004E4CZE2

--

[Jin Choi]

For somewhat more money, there is this, accurate to 1/10 oz and 12 lbs: http://www.amazon.com/Lyman-Electronic-Digital-Trigger-Gauge/dp/B00162QGLS

I understand Ed's caveat about digital scales, but these trigger pull scales are designed expressly for the purpose of capturing peak weight, so I think they would work.

[Gary Schwartz]

That looks like the ticket.​  I've been looking for something to buy with the gift certificate my daughter gave me.

I'll hold off for a day or two to think it over.  If I don't see a better idea, then I'll get it.

Thanks Jin.

[abuh...@gmail.com]

ABS problems: delamination, cracks, warping [SOLVED]

суббота, 29 марта 2014 г., 9:29:51 UTC+4 пользователь Jin Choi написал:

[abuh...@gmail.com]

http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?262,434083