Is colored pla food safe?

[Elbot]

I know clear pla is biodegradeable and food safe, just no hot drink safe. But, is colored pla food safe? If so, what colors of pla is safe? Thanks.

[whosawhatsis]

The plastic itself is essentially food-safe, but the extruders (both ours and the ones used to turn it into feedstock filament) are not. I don't know specifically about the additives used for coloring, but none of it would ever be certified as food-safe because of the manufacturing environment.

On Monday, July 23, 2012 at 10:54 AM, Elbot wrote:

I know clear pla is biodegradeable and food safe, just no hot drink safe. But, is colored pla food safe? If so, what colors of pla is safe? Thanks.

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[Jetty]

Also, Brass (the nozzle) normally contains lead to make it easier to
machine. The amount of lead contained is dependent on the grade of
the brass, so you may want to investigate which grade it is too. It's
inevitable that some small amount of that lead will make it into
the plastic given the heat and pressure.

[Dan Newman]

If it is a grade with significant lead, I wouldn't trust the usual treatments
to remove surface lead from brass (hydrogen peroxide + vinegar). While it may
work fine for beer brewing temps (100C; and it's arguable whether it works fine
even there), I wouldn't trust it to be sufficient given the temperatures
involved in extrusion. And since lead accumulates in our bodies, you
should think in terms of lifetime exposure.

Dan

[Elbot]

My makerbot sitll isn't functional, but as soon as the techs at makerbot help me get my replicator up and running, I'm gonna make a clear PLA cup and then have a lab test it for lead. If there is no lead, then I'm going to start giving away those neat tornado cups and spiral cups to my friends and family. I'll report back with the lead report as soon as I get the results.

Thanks for letting me know about the lead, which I didn't even suspect. I only suspected the color PLA.

[danr]

How did it go with the lab results? Would you mind sharing your findings and price paid for lab test?

Thanks

[CornGolem]

That's good to know ! It means that it's also not safe for skin contact, do you imagine the implication ? All jewels, watches and wearable prints like cell phone cases are in jeopardy - that's a lot of people and a lot of things on thingiverse. One article about this risk on the 3D printing blogs and BOOM !

Which grade is safe ? I'm going to ask MBI and official distributors what grade the Replicator 2's nozzle is.

[E. WizardGlick]

Man those people at MAKERLOVE will be so mad.

I would also say that if you have never worked in a factory you have no idea what actually enters a product.
And because most manufacturing is Chinese these days, well anywhere foreign, there tend to be lower standards of for production quality and safety.
I'm reading assumptions on food safety standards which are flawed not only because what I already mentioned but also because production is not uniform. Each job lot carries it's own imperfections. Few items, if any, are tested in each lot.
Once you start testing you may as well test every item in your home to discover what actually is "safe" to use.

[Infinityplusplus]

I don't usually print stuff for food or anything, but I find myself thinking there are many other lead contaminants out there in much higher concentrations to worry about, Like the 50/50 solder that holds older homes copper pipes together. I was also under the impression it was not actually touching the lead that was the real issue, it was the open cuts and not washing hands before touching your food, face, etc, that allowed you to ingest it. Is this incorrect?

 

 I work in a factory and agree, you have no idea what contaminants are on anything you get unless you test it yourself. Once initial testing is done and it hits actual production, depending on volume, testing is less than one percent.

[CornGolem]

Makerbot support says it is grade C360. A quick research shows that C360 must have less than 3% of lead which is a lot and makes is not food safe. Food safe grades must have less than 0,25% of lead. Grade C330 has 0,2 to 0,8% of lead which is enough for good machinability.
What are 3D printer manufacturers (MBI in particular) going to do ? switch to C330, keep C360 but inform customers that you can't print food safe objects or keep C360 and say nothing.

http://www.productionmachining.com/articles/adjusting-to-unleaded
http://www.alcobrametals.com/guide.php?metal=16#330

[James Long]

Qu-bd support mentioned that they could make nozzles from a food safe stainless steel for ~$10/each if there was sufficient demand (~20+ people interested).   

I'm curious what other things one would have to take into account to print in a food safe fashion.   Bearing/gear, thermal tube.  Not sure what those are / if they'd be safe, even if you went to the bother. 

-James

[Jay]

Uh....here you go...

Maker Geeks Food Grade Filament...

http://makergeeks.com/fogrplafi.html

Jay

[E. WizardGlick]

Looks like just plain rebadged PLA. I could have missed a description explaining why their PLA is " food grade".
Would you have a link to what exactly makes this "food grade"?

[Matthew Stonebraker]

Well, as established in this thread, the PLA is food safe. It's the mechanism that you run it through that isn't, and thus the final product that isn't. But if you want to use two lengths of 3mm filament as chopsticks, more power to you, it's food safe!

[CornGolem]

Thing is, there's PLA and PLA. Like 2 guys pointed out earlier, you don't know what something is made of until you test it. The factory size extruder they use are similar to our printers, who knows if their nozzle is made out of brass with high lead concentration ?!
(lets not mention the additives that some manufacturers add to their recipe)

[CornGolem]

Ultimaking Ltd refuses to reveal the grade of their brass nozzle ! It's a good thing that these guys make 3D printers and not food or medicine.

I'm probably going to resell various nozzles, I'll post a survey soon to find out what people need.

[DHeadrick]

If people want to print food grade parts, all the components which the filament comes in contact with should be food grade.  This usually means 304/316 stainless steels or Aluminum for metals.  The plastics in the filament path are another story.

[Stan Velijev]

Would be really curious as to the results also.

I'm currently using some printed PLA containers for a few dry food items, like coffee and sugar. Would be nice to know if I'm killing myself slowly by doing this.

[E. WizardGlick]

How did you manage to keep them airtight?
Living will kill you, we exist in a soup of death bombarded by radiation daily. Our own DNA breaks down or has hidden timebombs.
Compared to the death dealing particles we intake daily the little contaminants in PLA are virtually unnoticeable.
The problem is once we start examining our environment in detail we realize just how lucky it is to survive.

[Jetguy]

Seriously, you guys need to get a grip.

 

If you honestly believe enough lead leaches out of a nozzle to even be measurable, then wouldn't the nozzle simply wear out over time and just erode?

I guarantee you get more heavy metals from the food you eat like fish and seafood than any possible amount that comes from a nozzle, embeds itself in the plastic, and then would have to be re-absorbed by the liquid or whatever you put in the container.

 

The shear logic here is insane.

Go solve world peace, the problems overseas, or even healthcare in this country and stop worrying about stuff that has NO truth to it.

 

Yes, we ALL can agree it's not certified. If you are worried about it, then fine don't use it. But to imply it's blatantly dangerous and would kill you is borderline idiotic.

 

Your tap water from the faucet is magnitudes more of a problem then this could ever be.

 

Sorry for being rude but you guys need stop this discussion and move on to reality where the rest of us live.

Unless you live in a cleanroom that looks like a lab, I cannot believe this discussion of food safety keep resurfacing.

The nozzle is normally well over 300 F  which is more than enough to kill most germs and boil off most chemicals. So plastic coming out of the nozzle and onto a heated bed might be the most sterile thing in your home.

Yet we want to worry about what's in the plastic and what may leach from the nozzle?

 

This leads to an assumption that all your food packaging and everything you touch is then also certified food safe and that's a big fat lie and stretch of imagination as well.

Your cups that you reuse and run through the dishwasher- yep the rinse agent- not exactly good for you.

Your stainless steel silverware from China? Yep, sure keep believing that was made in a food safe factory.

Plastic cups from anywhere? Sure, it's not like those sat in the same container with chemicals for a long boat ride, nor did they get fumigated when entering this country.

 

 

I'm all for health and safety but there are larger problems we could be discussing and solving.

Again, basic logic, do we see ANY evidence ever that nozzles erode and wear in even the slightest? A big FAT NO.

So how much lead exactly could leach out? Can we prove any actually does? Can we prove the lead wasn't already in the plastic before it went through the nozzle and therefore actually came from the nozzle?

You guys are on a witch hunt for no reason other than some total BS someone mentioned that it is wasn't safe with NOTHING to back it up.

 

And CornGolem, seriously dude?

Being upset because Ultimaker won't tell you what grade it is. WHO in the heck is going to spend money on getting nozzles certified to a grade?

They bought nozzles from an industrial place to make 3D printers, not certified food machines. MakerBot, and Stratasys sure as heck aren't going to spend the money for certifications.

 

Again, this is the most insane discussion in the forum this week. You guys have seriously skewed expectations all the way around. Getting mad at companies because they don't have a certification or grade on their nozzle?

Out of one side the groups mouth, folks complain about pricing and out the other side, they then want everything certified and tested.

 

I'm more than willing to bet a printer part is safer than the container at the store. Certainly safer than bulk food transportation and storage where the FDA actually allows percentages of contaminates that might make you pass out.

 

On Thursday, August 22, 2013 6:49:19 AM UTC-4, Stan Velijev wrote:

[Jay]

+1

<hehehee> Wow...a nice cup of 'get a grip' for the morning mail run....

Couldn't have said it better..

 

Jay

[CornGolem]

Jetguy you talk a lot but do you bring us any proof ? Nope. Did you do any measure/test for the questions you raised ? Until tests are done nobody will know the quantity of lead that is transferred from the nozzle to the print. Practice beats theory, all the time.

I didn't ask for certification, just for the grade. They should have asked a specific grade from their supplier, should it be for mechanical properties alone.

Le jeudi 22 août 2013 15:04:25 UTC+2, Jetguy a écrit :

Seriously, you guys need to get a grip.

 

If you honestly believe enough lead leaches out of a nozzle to even be measurable, then wouldn't the nozzle simply wear out over time and just erode?

 

Again, basic logic, do we see ANY evidence ever that nozzles erode and wear in even the slightest? A big FAT NO.

So how much lead exactly could leach out? Can we prove any actually does? Can we prove the lead wasn't already in the plastic before it went through the nozzle and therefore actually came from the nozzle?

And CornGolem, seriously dude?

[Stan Velijev]

Man, you really love flying off the handle on a regular basis.

Dude said he'd get a plastic print tested, I'd just like to know what those results are. I'm clearly already using it for food storage already so it's not like I'm paranoid that the shit will kill me, but there's clearly a reason we don't use asbestos and lead paint in home construction anymore even if those things are unlikely to end up in our mouths.

I don't see how scientific facts like testing the shit in a lab would be harmful to the point that you have to show up and start calling people stupid. "Go solve world piece"...wat? "No truth to it"? Waaaat? That's kind of just opinion at this point unless, you know, someone's already tested this to find the lead content of printed PLA.

[Jetguy]

Grade of what? The brass in the nozzle?

I'm pretty sure the machine shop has no clue, they buy brass in bulk and it all came from China and good look getting a grade from that.

 

Basically, you want traceability of the metal like this was some aircraft part. Sorry, unless you spend the money, that isn't likely.

 

This isn't lead filled paint chips, it hot plastic flowing through a rather tiny nozzle. Yes, brass contains some lead in an alloy.

There is this massive assumption you need to prove it's leaching out, not the other way around where I need to prove it's not.

 

Logic says, weight the nozzle before and after extruding 100 kg of filament and then we can have a discussion.

I'm not buying a 100kgs of filament or paying for testing.

 

You on the other hand, can if you feel that unsafe.

[Jetguy]

And yes, I saw he was getting it tested.

 

We haven't exactly qualified the testing either. It's one sample by one person and one lab. Sample size of 1.

 

Stan, you did say "killing me slowly".

So it's at best, a mixed message in your post. You say you use it for food storage but then believe it may be contaminated?

 

FDM is not exactly ideal for mass production of anything. At best, we all should consider anything we make as a novelty or prototype.

So, printing your daily use drinking glasses and food storage containers was not an intended use of the machine ever.

Novelty, sure, why not?

I mean add it up, take the machine cost+ plastic cost+ time for a given container, you aren't exactly breaking down the doors at Walmart trying to sell printed cups.

That cup cost you at least a few $.

 

PLA+dishwasher equals disaster anyway. So that means washing by hand. How much are you going to use a cup that must be washed by hand and cannot be used with hot water?

 

So then what are we really doing or discussing here?

The one time novelty cup you printed and used a half dozen times is not going to kill you, well not worse than the cup you get at the drive through.

[Stan Velijev]

100 Kg of filament? No, 1 printed part, tested for lead content, that's the only thing that's relevant. The object which would make contact with your food.

Someone said they would get it tested, that's all I'm interested in.

I have a suspicion this has already been done and it's been found to be totally fine, or else these people wouldn't be putting printed parts in baby's mouths: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEQrWqULaU8

On top of which, MBI is advertising them which I don't think they'd do if they thought there's some chance of them poisoning infants.

He also did quantify the testing, he said lead content. I'm sure that's a fairly standard test that doesn't require a sample size of 100kg of printed objects.

My comment of "Would be nice to know if I'm killing myself slowly by doing this." was partially sarcastic, partially "Hey I'm curious if there's something to this, even if unlikely".

I don't have an issue with using printed parts for food storage. That however, doesn't change the fact that FACTUAL EVIDENCE AND SCIENTIFIC TESTING IS NEVER A BAD THING. Even if we have an opinion to the contrary from someone who continually assumes they cannot be wrong.

[Jetguy]

I think the post earlier said it all.

 

MakerBot told him they use brass with 3%lead.

Everyone else in the industry uses uncertified or unknown brass.

One would logically think if that much lead leached out, the nozzle would weaken. Yes, the source was only 3% but wouldn't the zinc leach out with it?

We have no evidence, not even anecdotal notes that nozzles fail after massive amounts of plastic has run through them. There are some MK7s with the original nozzles.

SO even if lead did leach out, the rate that happens and could possibly contaminate a single printed object must be difficult, even with high end tests to measure.

And, since we are measuring the printed object contamination, we must first ensure the plastic itself was not contaminated in shipping in handling, assuming the use of certified plastic in the first place.

 

Then, the next issue is transfer. You aren't eating the PLA. At best, we are assuming the contamination is free floating on the outside of the extruded part and is even absorbed by whatever you put into the container an ingest.

 

My point here is the described testing covered NONE of that and certainly, a MUCH larger sample size would be required.

 

SO, not only is this discussion insane, but basically, even the test and the money being spent on the test is not going to solve the bottom line answer.

[CornGolem]

Yes the grade of the brass. Makerbot provided a grade, and qu-bd.com seems to know what grade it's using, but of course their suppliers could have told them anything.

Did Jetty talk bullshit ? could be since lead melts at 327,5°C which is much higher than the nozzle's temperature even for printing nylon.

If lead is going to leach out it's going to be from the tip of the nozzle and from the holes that the filament goes through. So I would imagine that most of the lead is going to be taken away with the first meters of filament, so 1Kg could be enough. To test we could print 1kg of ABS in an alloy 360 brass nozzle, remove ABS with acetone, also bath a brand new nozzle in acetone and have both nozzles tested for lead concentration. We could also print 1Kg with a brass alloy 360 nozzle and another 1Kg with an aluminium nozzle and test both print - that would be closer to what we want to know. Thing is, I don't have the equipment to test anything for lead concentration and I don't know how much it would cost to have anything tested.
It's much simpler and cheaper to switch to a low lead or zero lead nozzle ! :-)

[Stan Velijev]

Again, irrelevant. You can try and deduce all you want but all I'll actually care about is the lead content of the thing that my food touches.

Your attempt to reason this out to improbability doesn't account at all for what the filament might come into contact with when it's being extruded into shape by the filament manufacturer. Granted, this would imply you'd want to test a multitude of filaments to make sure they're all food safe, but none the less THE END PRODUCT is what I care about, not how unlikely it is that the end product has been contaminated by a 3% lead content nozzle.

Yeah, I find it unlikely that there's anything seriously dangerous with prints from a Rep2, but I wouldn't rule it out unless someone's done testing. Your opinion doesn't overrule evidence, and evidence from a lab is what I'd like.

[Jetguy]

Ok, just buy stainless nozzles.

I would suggest not going aluminum, mainly because the softer metal might easily be deformed if say you crashed into the bed.

 

So we then start the debate of does a food grade safe nozzle perform as well as a non-food grade safe brass nozzle?

 

Next, we start in with massive temps discussion on what is the correct temp for extrusion that doesn't burn or change the PLA but still extrudes well and doesn't jam.

It goes on and on.

 

For liability reasons alone, I would suggest no manufacturer goes down this path of food grade safe nozzles. It's an entire can of worms that obviously should be avoided.

Don't even advertise it as such, just say it's stainless and let folks deal with this issue on their own.

Basically forcing the user to certify the machine and end process. Pretty much it would have to be that way and with no UL certifications, best of luck getting  a machine certified.

 

I remember when this was a hobby and we could just worry about getting the machine to print well and not worry about trying to use the machine for a purpose it was never intended for.

[E. WizardGlick]

"all I'll actually care about is the lead content of the thing that my food touches."

Use Tupperware, problem solved.
If you even suspect lead, and the discussion has taken on a bit of the Green Organic ranty, why use PLA to store food to begin with?
Buy Tupperware and lose the fear.
Pretty simple.
I print crap but don't lick it.
And as Jetguy states there is more than enough crap in your environment to be truly scared of once examined.
You know what the temp is to kill Prions? You run a reverse osmosis water filter to clean your water? Ever read your toothpaste and see that Fluoride is POISONOUS? It's added to the water you drink. Hair care products have chemicals which are taken in through the skin and deodorant has Aluminium which is linked to Alzheimers.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2157423/Poisoned-plastic-Chemicals-water-bottles-food-packaging-linked-infertility-birth-defects-Scaremongering-truth.html

Poisoned by plastic: Chemicals in water bottles and food packaging have been linked to infertility and birth defects. Scaremongering, or the truth?

http://www.ofspirit.com/marcusmaldonado1.htm
Poisonous Chemicals In Skin & Hair Care Products

http://www.naturalnews.com/023565_water_lead_drinking.html

The Poisoning of America's Water Supplies

[E. WizardGlick]

Jetguy

So stainless steel is what food printers use?

[Jetguy]

Exactly, you guys have seen the new Taco Bell version right?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RT5rbl-hvsQ

[Jetguy]

First off, a food safe printer would be an entire different story and likely doesn't exist to my knowledge because no manufacturer wants to open themselves up to that mess of testing.

For one thing, the porous nature of our prints and the grooves and cracks between layers is a growing area for all kinds of nasty stuff.

Then we take into consideration that we cannot wash them in the dishwasher with high temp water to properly clean them.

 

So, the debate about printed plastic being safe is a giant red herring (used to cut down the largest tree in the forest, next to a shrubbery).

At best, for the above reason of not being able to properly wash and sanitize printed objects used with food, they should be considered one time use disposable items.

Which rolls right back into the contamination transfer question, because unless you eat PLA ( I hear it's not that good and kind of tough coming back out if you know what I mean), how much then transfers to the food and then how much does your body absorb from a one time use item?

 

And how much does a single print contain?

And how much does that vary with nozzle age?

 

Then, all over the forum we have folks lubricating the machine with elephant snot to canola oils.

Take your pick of contaminates.

Hairspray on the bed-oops, we cannot do that.

Blue painters tape---what's in that?

Kapton tape from China- I'm sure it's certified to be anything but safe.

 

In general, the USER is the biggest danger to themselves. Not the process, not the machine, and not the materials.

[Stan Velijev]

You know what, you're right, someone doing tests of what my 3d printer is outputting is pointless and I should stop caring.

Back to tupperware it is.

[Joseph Chiu]

This is only tangentially related, but since lead content in brass had been brought up in this thread, I thought this was worth a brief mention: http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/static/fos_lowlead.html?cm_mmc=SocialMedia:Facebook-_-InsightsSolutions-_-LowLead-_-20131005

Basically, there's a new limit to lead content in brass for applications where the brass for plumbing used for human consumption - 0.25% vs the previous 8% limit.

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 11:52 AM, Jetty <clell...@gmail.com> wrote:

Also, Brass (the nozzle) normally contains lead to make it easier to
machine.  The amount of lead contained is dependent on the grade of
the brass, so you may want to investigate which grade it is too.  It's
inevitable that some small amount of that lead will make it into
the plastic given the heat and pressure.

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[Elbot]

I went to wally world and bought a water filter that came with a free digital water tester that tests for impurities. It is similar to this:
http://www.filtersfast.com/HM-Digital-TDS-EZ-Filter-Tester.asp?utm_source=shopzilla&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=HM%20Digital&utm_keyword=TDS-EZ&utm_content=TDS-EZ

Heated nozzle and dunked it in water. Tested water before and after. No difference in dissolved impurities. Keep in mind that as Jetguy says, it's not the lead that leaches out of the nozzle, but the lead that leaches out the nozzle, then leaches out the pla plastic, then leaches into your food. So, in chemistry, we call this a geometric dilution, where it is a dilution of a dilution of a dilution. What you end up with is a ridiculously low concentration, even at worst case scenario;
1st dilution = lead diluted into nozzle at 3%
2nd dilution = nozzle degrades into plastic at 0.005% (if nozzle totally dissolves in 3 years of use and weighs 30g with 6 kg of plastic used in 3 years)
3rd dilution =  plastic leaches into food at 0.003% (if plastic totally disintegrates after 10 years of daily use)

Therefore, 30g x 0.03 x 0.00005 x 0.00003 = 0.001 ppm lead. PPM stands for parts per MILLION. The maximum lead rated for safe eating in candy is 0.1 ppm. Safe drinking water is 0.015 ppm lead. This WORST case scenario is still 15 times safer than your drinking water.

Evem of the nozzle were 100% lead, that would only be 0.033 ppm lead, which is still safe to eat.

[Elbot]

What people don't understand is that "grading" that something is food safe is a BUSINESS. It doesn't actually make is safer, it is just a business that grades stuff and makes money. For example, I own a business and dufuses are always asking if i'm rated by the BBB (better busines bureau). What they don't understand is that the BBB is a business and only rates businesses that PAYS them. It doesn't make a business any better or more reliable, but is just a marketing gimmick that costs money and will drive up the price of the final product sold. Dumb people pay for "grading" while smart people like Jetguy logically think things through and decide for themselves.

On Wednesday, August 21, 2013 10:19:53 PM UTC-5, DHeadrick wrote:

[CornGolem]

Unfortunately this triple dilution calculation is still theory and in the case that you wear the plastic on your skin there are only two dilutions. Moreover the practical test you conducted is irrelevant as this type of TDS tester can't measure the very low concentration that was calculated nor the supposed healthy minimum and it can't detect if it's lead or something else.

[Elbot]

You are obviously European because you do not regularly handle pure lead. Transdermal absorption is very low with lead. It is only not safe to touch if you touch it all day long as part of your occupation or something. We Americans touch lead regularly when we load lead bullets into our guns to shoot for fun on the weekends. ;0)

As long as you wash your hands after you touch lead it is fine. People laughed at me when I tell young children and pregnant women to wear gloves while shooting and only shoot outside (less ventilation for lead fumes indoors). It is hard to believe that there's someone even more cautious and worrisome than me. Sheesh....

Vous plaisantez avec moi? Merci pour le rire  ;0)

P.S. I was just joking (Blague). However, I am serious about the safety of 3d printed products with regard to lead. I'm more worried about the ABS fumes while it is printing. These fumes contain; henolic compounds, nitrogen oxide, hydrogen bromide, carbon

monoxide; small amounts of hydrogen cyanide and styrene

. Nitrogen oxide and carbon monoxide, I'm not really worried about. However, the hydrogen cyanide, styrene, and phenolic compounds have me worried. I am especially worried about the hydrogen cyanide. Yes, I know about that ABS plastic test on the internet that claims ABS filaments for 3d printing are safe, BUT that only means that one batch was safe and only with respect to hydrogen cyanide. If it smells bad, it must be toxic. I've printed out 2 carbon air filters (one inside the bot and one for exhaust), but I can still smell a little bit of the fumes. I may have to move the printer out into the garage.... But then where would I park my car?