Re: [MakerBot] How are you guys removing supports?

[James McCracken]

not sure about a setting for that (and VERY interested - I played around with layer temps in older versions of skeinforge until blue in the tape but never found a setting that would let me peel off support)

But one piece of advice; I use micro shears intended for model building to remove the support - they're designed to leave as flat a cut as possible (most side cutters leave a v-notch on what they cut)

Then after a quick dressing with sand paper, hit it with a hot air gun to reflow the surface plastic and remove the white scarring...

On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 2:47 AM, TPZ <to...@tekniplaz.com> wrote:

Apart from a few issues with the rep2 i am reasonably happy with my first 3d printer.

The one thing i cant understand is how people work with supports. I am building models of what will eventually be injection moulded parts, most of these parts seem to need supports.

What i am finding is that the material left over from the supports on the surface is very rough & difficult to remove, to the point where all finer detail is lost and i have to use a large file or rough emery to try and remove the "support scars". Totally unworkable at present and i am still outsourcing my prototype requirements to a guy with an SLA machine.

Is this normal or is there some setting that can be changed so that the material left over from the supports after braking off is minimal?

Thanks

Tony

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[joe...@gmail.com]

Try dialing down your temperature and lowering your flow rate a touch. Very small adjustments can make  a big difference on how the supports fuse with the main object. You may also need to turn up cooling airflow...  If you have details right up against the supports, though, you might never be entirely satisfied.

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On Feb 18, 2013 6:01 AM, TPZ <to...@tekniplaz.com> wrote:

[Elbot]

use pla with water soluble pva supports.

if abs, use screwdriver to remove supports after using needlenose pliers to pull of as much as possible first.

I have experimented with everything from knives to dremels and the screwdriver is the best because it will no mar the surface details since it is blunt unlike a knife. a dremel will cause friction and heat to melt the plastic and deform it.

hot air gun removes white scarring.

3 second dip in acetone makes surface smooth and shiny.

[Elbot]

Joseph, I was wondering, if you can tweak the gcode so that the support is printed with the other nozzle in a different color plastic at a lower temperture so that it easily and completely breaks off with visual confirmation of a clean break due to the support being a different color.

How would you tweak the gcode?

Thanks.

[Nagalfar]

Aceton sounds funny. Do you happen to have any photos of finished parts or pro tips on aceton usage, reusage and storage?

[Nagalfar]

Oh just read aceton doesn't work on pla, only abs. Too bad :(

[AKron]

Repetier can do supports on the 2nd extruder, but I haven't tried it
yet.
http://www.repetier.com/
I'm trying to get supports to work with PLA. ABS supports work great,
but PLA is too hard to remove. Yesterday I adjusted the support rate
over operating flow rate (ratio) from .7 to .6. It made the supports
easier to remove, but I think I'll try .5 next time. That setting is
in Skeinforge/Raft near the bottom (scroll down). Usually, I try to
design without material wasting supports if I can.

-Andy

[Ryan Gerrish]

I have the same issue. Anything that has a lot of supports tend to be hard to remove, and once removed requires sanding to make smooth. This is especially the case with large flat areas that are supported. I've had to use my dremel to go in and remove support structure that I could hand-sand.

[TobyCWoods]

I use some really fine, small files. They take off the excess without ruining finish. A fine emory cloth works nice too. A hemostat to pull supports out of enclosed areas and I also use a range of exacto knives and if I could only SLOW a dremel down I would use it... but they go WAY too fast and quickly ruin everything.

IMHO the problem I see the most from printing Things from the Thingiverse is that many posters design their things without really considering printing all that much. For example, there's one guy (no names) who does these awesome math generated big vases and things. In his opinion from the posts on his things pages he goes with full support, but it is obvious that he is not using an additive 3D reprap like device.  Using full supports would require using tons of filament and ruin whole areas of the print. There are a few others who have the forethought and consideration to design within their Things supports so that we do not need to have auto support turned on. Thanks go to those guys. My Things will all have support designed in so auto support should never be needed.

Trying to print the big fancy math generated things I am currently making my own support and adding them to the stl of the Thing I am trying to make with maker ware... then print it with RepG so it comes out nice. Full support?! I need no full support!

[Chris Chiang]

Tweak these 3 parameters:
1) Adjusting the support Flow Rate over operating flow rate(you want it to be way lower than the default. I use 0.8 for ABS)
2) Support Gap over Perimiter Extrusion Width (bigger gap means it's less connected to the model, right? (looking at it on the same layer). A Larger number, but not too large. I use 0.5 for ABS.
3) Interface Infill Density (ratio)- Changes the density of the 'lines' of support. I use 0.1, so there's less to remove, though I have a profile with 0.25

Settings may vary for PLA.

You should end up with somewhat thin and flimsy ribbon that's easy to tear off and destroy with your bare hands. (bear hands may work too)

[Peter Leppik]

While I agree that there are a lot of people who post to Thingiverse who don't own printers and don't consider the practical considerations of printing their models, I think you chose a poor example.

This One Guy's (OG for short) models are eminently printable, as evidenced by the fact that I have printed many of them and there are lots of photos of other successful prints on Thingiverse. Yes, the models often require a lot of support, and yes they can be challenging prints, but they are also good models to work on if you're looking for a challenge and/or want to learn how to get good results using support.

I think the evidence is that OG gives quite a bit of consideration to making sure his models are printable, if challenging, on a hobbyist printer. The STL files are all well formed, wall thicknesses are appropriate for the strength required, there are no blind alcoves which might fill with impossible-to-remove support material, etc.

If you can get one of OG's models to print well it's very rewarding: these are the models most likely to inspire the "Cool" and "How did you make THAT?" reactions from your friends who don't know 3D printing.

-Peter

[Darrell jan]

All true, but might as well mention again, wish we had automatically-generated water-soluble support.  

[KM Design]

The way supports currently work in Makerware / Skeinforge is not great and I have had similar problems removing them. There are certainly ways to design a model for printing but the reality is supports are going to be necessary to print many models.

I'm relatively new to the world of 3D printing but my guess is the company with the best software, especially with regard to their implementation of supports, will ultimately win the race to customer satisfaction. People want to print objects designed based on aesthetics or function, not objects that are compromised to be able to 3D print without support. It shouldn't be as difficult as it currently is to print these objects.

Kevin

[Darrell jan]

It's almost enough to make me consider 3DSystems. Even with that lye ultrasound bath and the high price and slow printing speed. What holds me back there is that the software is Windows only. Not that I mind that so much, but it makes it harder for me to try it out.

Darrell

[TobyCWoods]

Ever print with one of those big $ powder machines? I had a project a couple years back where we had one. The support is this white, fine powder... that you have to brush off the thing in a sealed containment using special gloves, brushes and wash. Then you have to paint the thing with this stabilizing stuff which I think is like CA glue. After it's all dry and clean hours later you get to look at it. Ok.. yeah the details were absurdly accurate, in fact a demo of a DIMM printout were hard to detect it was not really a DIMM... but the stuff fell apart within weeks.

[Harrison Fast]

The powder machines usually use PA/Nylon powder. The laser sinters the powder just where you want it to (like stereolithography, but with solids instead of liquids). So the white powder is just unused material. You clean it off in the tank so that it can be reused to make the next model. SL has a similar support method in that the liquid bath the part is floating in serves as support until the material is solidified enough to support itself. 

The PVA/PLA dualstrusion model looks awesome for FFM machines. Sounds like I need another extruder.

[TobyCWoods]

Here's something to remove support leftovers in a real tight spot...

http://www.harborfreight.com/80-piece-rotary-tool-kit-68986.html

I swapped out the 12v .5 amp with a 4.5 to 9 v .3 amp switchable Radioshack wall wart. Since this thing is a DC motor it slows down nicely... unlike a dremel. It's not nearly as precise as a dremel but you can take off PLA without it melting and you can leave a nice finish. Pretty cheap too... They sometimes go on sale for $5.99.