Did I make a bad decision with the purchase of the Makerbot 2x?

[Ken Hoven]

Hello,

Advice requested:

I do not mind doing a little experimenting/tinkering but everything has a limit. I purchased the new Makerbot with the delay in delivery. After purchase, I found this site and there seems to be a lot of people that have not been happy with the more or less plug and play ability of the Makerbot. I do not mind tweaking but my situation is that I am from the good old USA but now work and live in the Middle East (Qatar) so getting parts after issues will not be so easy as if I was living some place else.

I am new to the 3D. But after seeing the Makerbot website, I chose them over other brands, exactly over the Leapfrog Creatr. I want to mainly create a design and expect 9 good prints out of 10. That is my goal and that is why I have invested a little over $3 with the shipping and supplies.

Do people think expecting 9 out of 10 good prints is too much? Should I cancel my order and wait a few years to avoid the spare part shipping hassle?

Thanks in Advance!

P.S. why is google groups the only site I have found like this. Why not a regular forum that is better for people like all of us?

[Dan Newman]

> P.S. why is google groups the only site I have found like this. Why not a
> regular forum that is better for people like all of us?

Forums have been set up in the past. They weren't successful.

Dan

[Eighty]

9 out of 10 is a perfectly reasonable expectation, assuming you're not including design tweaks (for printability). Once you've tuned/tweaked your bot, you should be fine. But please resist the urge to yell foul in the first few weeks. You said that you don't mind tinkering a little - you will certainly need to do that in the early days of ownership.
I cannot speak to the multiple fabrication issues, as my only problem was a warped acrylic plate (they replaced it immediately, for free). I did have one other problem, which was a worn out plunger after a few hundred hours. But they also replaced it for free. Neither of these issues halted my printing.

[Justin Leone]

While no one can say for sure about the Rep2X yet, I think a lot of the dissatisfaction with the Rep2 comes from Makerbot's marketing hype about it being an out-of-box plug in and print experience.  In most cases, it's not quite so simple to get working.  Mine had some stripped wires and a warped build plate (both replaced by MBI).  It also needed various other adjustments.  It's NOT a consumer-level machine, and will most likely require some tinkering.

That said, I've had it less than 2 months, and my percentage of good prints is easily above 90%.  This doesn't count design mistakes, or incorrectly chosen software settings, but once I have a good print file that works, it works pretty much every time.

From what I understand, virtually all printers will need some tweaking and maintenance, and Makerbot is no different, but they get some flak, rightly, for claiming to be.

[Joseph Chiu]

The other thing is that if a person's willing to go with 0.3mm layer prints, you're far more likely to get close to 100% success rates with any decent prints.  It's just that going from 0.3mm to 0.1mm requires much more precise control of all the parameters...  I understand that MBI has been hyping being able to do 0.1mm, but for the first-timer, I think doing the easier stuff first (in my humble opinion) is probably the best way to go... 

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 11:19 AM, Eighty <adun...@gmail.com> wrote:

9 out of 10 is a perfectly reasonable expectation, assuming you're not including design tweaks (for printability).  Once you've tuned/tweaked your bot, you should be fine.  But please resist the urge to yell foul in the first few weeks.  You said that you don't mind tinkering a little - you will certainly need to do that in the early days of ownership.
I cannot speak to the multiple fabrication issues, as my only problem was a warped acrylic plate (they replaced it immediately, for free).  I did have one other problem, which was a worn out plunger after a few hundred hours.  But they also replaced it for free.  Neither of these issues halted my printing.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MakerBot Operators" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to makerbot+u...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

[Jetguy]

I, as one of the harshest critics, am not going to tell you you made a
bad decision.
I wrote another post on why a person should skip over the Replicator2
and only buy the 2X.
Here's the basic reasons:
A 2X is basically the original dual head Replicator, from a basic
capabilities standpoint but with improvements we expect:
Metal frame
Prints both ABS and PLA.
It has a heated bed that should be more robust and definitely should
be flatter than the acrylic used on the Replicator 2.
It in theory has the same electronics as Replicator 2 which were
redesigned over the Replicator's failure prone Mightyboard.
It has the improved, spring loaded filament drives over the plunger
systems that plague the Rep-2s.
It has the enclosure to keep out drafts.

A lot of stuff about this is on paper with very few details. Much like
the Replicator2, there are lot of places where decision like reusing
the same Z arms could be a trouble spot. That single point is a huge
one as if the bed won't maintain level, it's hard, if not impossible
to get consistent prints. Maybe they fixed it, maybe it's still
broken, but the problem variables are going down.
In other words, on a replicator-both the extruder and the z arms on
the bed had problems and then the electronics blew up at will.
On Replicator2 they removed the heated bed, tried to improve the
extruder with adjustable pressure on the plunger and it still failed.
Manufacturing issues came into play with warped beds. So, really, in
my mind, Replicator 2s only advantage was improved electronics that
don't blow up, but then you gave up the heated bed and still got a
crappy stock extruder for a more expensive price.

Now, we have the 2X that again, on paper, looks like they fixed the
problem areas (I still say the Z arms are questionable), but does
offer more features and is closer to what it should have been back at
the Replicator release. There is hope and this could be a good bot.
For a first bot, it sure beats all previous bots and the problems they
had.

It is a gamble, and the reputation is tarnished, but don't go freaking
out yet, give it a chance. If the Z arm is a problem, there is already
a fix for that.

[Joseph Chiu]

The Replicator 2 may be MBI's Apple ///, or perhaps the Lisa.  There will always be bumps along the road, and MBI is probably in one of those awkward growth-spurt moments where a lot of things are falling apart and people are expecting more than they are ready to handle.  Let's just hope they do mature to become what people expect them to be.

[Big Bonenfant]

Ken - I now have 3  Replicator 2's and yes they have some problems. Most of the time they are simple fixes that occur but if your new to 3d printing then they seem like major issues. Plus it sounds like with the 2X they have fixed the major problems with the Replicator 2 and improved them. Im planning on placing a order for two in the next few weeks. 9 out 10 is perfectly reasonable - I have create about 1500 parts with my bot and have a small box of bad parts - I would say maybe 30 - 60 bad objects. 3D Printing has a nice base in the Europe so getting parts isnt to hard if something breaks. Most of Makerbots part can be  bought from dealers in Europe or even China. Dont get me wrong the Makerbots are no Zcorps or ECO Machine but if you need a hobby or maybe a small amount of extra cash that its the right Machine for you. ( By Small Amount I mean small lol Starbucks money for the week) Hopefully Ive help easy from Mind - Also these Forums are most Support Post so thats why you see alot of bad news. 

[DronE Pump]

Jetguy, when it comes to speaking out about this product I have been calling out its glaring design oversights (made in favour of commercial priorities) for a long time now and where I am concerned I do openly state that I was taken in by the hype. Yes, I made a bad decision in going for the Rep1. I wanted a machine to make parts with, not an item to fiddle with constantly.  I had already built a PRUSA so I had had enough of fiddling.  It seems to me that not enough has been done in the Rep2 & 2X to improve MBI already dubious standing in the markeplace.

 I am in complete agreement with you regarding the Z Arms - these do present a serious risk to consistent quality of print

 About the HPB - right again, it should be more robust and it certainly needs to be "flat" - which is why I changed mine

The filament load is not a huge issue to me although I did change this just for the sake of convenience and the fact that I could do it anyway

For me the most annoying and subtle of the flaws was the plywood frame - It caused inconsistencies in repeatability which did not help provide a good finish to the prints.  And it also had a "sounding box" effect.  (I expect this is not present in the 2 & 2X) 
The there are the other dismaying design transgressions - lack of thought to how to ensure that the extruders can be calibrated level, using a four point platform levelling approach eeechh!, cheap PCB build, simplistic (hack style) approach to firmware - cheap thermistors and bad PID loops to control temperature....I could go on.  

They made a grab for the market with visions of grandeur and a bad attitude to quality - they deserve what they get from their public reputation.  I no longer have a Replicator, because I have turned mine into something else through all the work I have put into it.  I do not wish my journey on any one else.

[DronE Pump]

I say wait...and buy something other than a Makerbot.

:)

[Alex Lau]

I will say in my first two weeks I had a success rate of about 50%. It was dismal.

After getting my Rep 2 completely repaired I have a success rate very close to 100%. I no longer expect prints to fail. I goto bed and leave the house and print things, and when I come back I find they are printed.

I do have lingering issues such as an uneven build pad causing curling, and also not allowing me to 'use' the entire space. However this doesn't stop me much. I'm pretty happy with my Rep 2, and I expect to be a Makerbot customer in the future. Not the 2x, but probably a couple years down the line when my Rep 2 finally kicks it. I don't expect 3d printers to last that long considering the nature of moving parts, et al.

On Thursday, January 31, 2013 1:47:47 PM UTC-5, Ken Hoven wrote:

[ddurant]

> I, as one of the harshest critics, am not going to tell you you made a
> bad decision.

 

I'll take that as a challange.. :P

 

He made a bad decision. The machine may work fine, eventually, but MBI has yet to come out with a printer that works as-advertised for most people. Every machine has had electronics problems. Every machine has had extruder problems. They STILL don't know how to create a print profile that just works.

 

He'd have had few problems and a bunch more money left over if he'd bought an Ultimaker or MakerGear M2.

[DronE Pump]

+++1

[Bottleworks]

I would say the biggest issue is the customer not understanding how to use the printer.  This is inpart due to MBI implying that the Replicator 2 "works great out of the box".  It doesn't work perfect out of the box.  I don't think you're going to find a desktop 3d printer that doesn't need tweaking. Those who are super negative are usually upset about MBI for policy reasons, or two, new folks that believe you should press Command-P - then walk away.  They don't work like that.  You will be learning the machine and understanding what's going on.  You will then be applying that knowledge and troubleshooting the machine as needed.  If you're not willing/interested in that, then cancel your order.  If you understand your requirements as a user - you will do just fine. 

On Thursday, January 31, 2013 1:47:47 PM UTC-5, Ken Hoven wrote:

[Darrell jan]

I'm intrigued by the new CubeX by 3D systems. But I'm hoping someone else will try it out first.

On Thursday, January 31, 2013 9:30:39 PM UTC-8, David Celento wrote:

On Thursday, January 31, 2013 9:38:32 PM UTC-5, ddurant wrote:

He'd have had few problems and a bunch more money left over if he'd bought an Ultimaker or MakerGear M2.

 As one who is considering purchasing the Rep2X, what other machines do people think are worth considering and why? 

I spent a good deal of time reading Make magazine's 3D printer shootout and clear winners for size, reliability, and quality are a bit ambiguous.

[Ken Hoven]

I saw an estimate for the CubeX filament was estimated at $80 per pound!

[Andy]

I have spent a healthy amount of money and time ensuring my collection of filament stays dry and safe.  I've purchased Rubbermaid containers, giant ziplock bags, vacuum bags because the ziplocks failed, rechargeable silica drums, bags of makeup sponges(keep it clean!), and humidity/temperature monitors.  All of these, aside from the silica drums, were inexpensive items to purchase.  But each required a time investment as well as some effort on discovery (read lots of blogs and this forum). 

I hate overpriced filament, but I can see why having the material in an insulated, passively dry, and properly spooled dispenser would be good for new peeps like me.  People just getting started wont know that filament absorbs moisture, and that can affect print quality/success.  I wonder what their diameter tolerance is on the filament.  I also wonder if they have their own variant of ABS.  If it can print w/o a heated build platform, and not warp fail only using glue, doesn't sound like the ABS I know and love :) 

-Andy

[Mark Cohen]

Fyi, at the most i stick a silicon pack in a gallon Ziplock with abs. Usually i keep a couple just open and i have never had any serious issues in 3+ years. To me moisture issues are a myth. In fact a bathroom vent from a room with a shower vents right into my garage above my bot. It greatly reduces any static electricity because of the humidity and heat.

[Darrell jan]

Yeah, good point. Even thought it looks a lot like the 3DTouch, which used regular 3mm filament spools, they've made this model go with those proprietary cartridges.

Darrell

[Steve]

JetGuy:

What are the symptoms of the Z-Arm problem you are referring to and what is the fix?

[Jetguy]

Symptoms are pretty easy, run the leveling script with the heated bed
cold. Adjust it so that it's right or just note what the distance is
in the corners between the nozzle and the bed.
Then re-run the script after you heated the bed for about 10-15
minutes and compare.

That's one way, and the second way, is do you often have prints that
don't stick, or peal up in one corner? Do you have to constantly
adjust the bed every couple of prints or from one day to the next?

Or mine were so warped, if you put a carpenter's square against the
back wall of the bot, it should show the bottom of the arms to be 90
to the back wall. Mine were warped at the front upwards by almost 5mm!
This meant my front springs were nearly bottomed out and the back
springs couldn't push the bed up to level with the back nuts not even
screwed up touching the wood.

Again, the way you know is you ahve massive problems with prints not
sticking (after you follow all the normal rules with a clean bed, good
tape, correct temps, and correct tramming) and it might work for the
first print, but several prints later it fails and that indicates heat
soak is warping the arms causing first layer to be off.

The tip of the day is to always watch the bot print prist layer. If
you see it not laying the plastic down enough to make it wider and
stick, then stop the print and run the level script. You shouldn't
have to do it often but if you do, a clear indication the arms are
warping.

For example, my plywood Ultimate Thing-O-Matic based on a Type A
machines Series One has only required a single bed adjustment in over
2 months over hundreds of prints. People claim plywood is unstable but
compared to the Replicator-Z arms, rock solid!! I'd like to design a
similiar laser cutable plywood Z stage for the Replicator but it takes
time.

The problem is, the arms are moving based on heat. Since the limit
switch is at the back and we use that to set first layer height of the
nozzle from the platform, any distortion of the arms one you have
claibrated (AKA leveled, AKA trammed) the bed then throws off the
first layer and thus ruins the print.

Think of first layer hieght as the foundation to a house. It must be
perfect as any flaw shows up later on in the house.

To be honest, there are only a few ways to deal with this that are
effective:
One way is to contact MBI support and request new arms- hopefully
free, but may not be the best fix long term. I did this and the new
arms are already moving on me.

I tried this before I got new arms and it really didn't help already
warped arms at all http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:35059
It also lowers the Z space and you may crash into the bottom of the
bot at the end of each print. No big deal, just noisy and would
surprise you the first time it happens.
Not trying to knock the design, it was a good attempt, but doesn't
address the issue IMO.

My design also isn't the best fix, but is worth trying since it
reduces greatly the heat that soaks into the arms in the first place.
It too lowers the Z travel and you may hit at the bottom of each
print.
FYI, you can edit the Z travel in onboard preferences in Makerware to
adjust it to like 140mm and then never hit the bottom. YMMV.
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:37877

The best fix but not currently being sold is this replacement aluminum
Z arms. http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:39322

[Mark Cohen]

Also you can't use the whole build platform. As you print towards the
front, the object lifts off.

[Ken Hoven]

Jetguy...... did you get my email?

[Jetguy]

Sorry got busy trying to get some the kits out and rather than only
give you the info, I'm going to post some good info today here for
everyone.
I've seen lot's of folks asking the same type of question and rather
than talk up any one design (inlcuding my own), I'm going to state
what I know from experimentation and the general direction I feel
people should be moving towards. I think it's better info than any bot
shootout and should give the user the knowledge they need to make an
informed decision.

I'll be the first to admit even my design has flaws or compromises but
that's what happens with the limits of what I can make at home, source
from other people, or fit within a given budget. Most important, I am
but one person. I don't have a company, or have thousands of dollars
to invest in R&D, nor can I do any volume production. Support, well
it's just me. I do what I can, but have to maintain a real job and the
current customers which grows exponentially.

[Andy Cohen]

Yup... that's the cost of having no cross over snags... we assume!

On Friday, February 1, 2013 7:26:44 AM UTC-8, Ken Hoven wrote:

[Elbot]

I get 10 out of 10 good prints but it took me 3 weeks to figure out how. Go to ebay n get the inoffocial manual or post ur questions n ill answr for free. Get the dial gauge mod, n the fume hood if abs. Get minimalistic extruder mod. Search thingiverse for these. Welcome aboard.

[Elbot]

Let it preheat be
fore too.

[paul wang]

I think you answered my question. I got one 2X on order, now deciding if I need to cancel it. I am a small business owner, doing electronics design and mechanical too. For the last 7 years I have been using RedEye for our prototypes. It's been very good, of course tens of thousands dollars have been spent too, which paid by my customers.
Now after reading more here, I just cannot expect I can just "use" it when I need it. By looking at those printed parts, most of them cannot be presented to my customer who paid $150/hr rate for their product.
I love play with it, but just in this career stage, I got better things to do, and wanted a 3D printer to help these things if it can save me money and time.
So far out sourcing it out seems to be my solution at least for next a cou