Replicator 2 - Issues with printing "High Quality" vs "Medium Quality" on Makerware

[Alex Garrison]

Hello everyone,

I'm a 1.5 month user of the Replicator2 and have been enjoying it quite a lot.  I convinced my office to buy one and we've been using it to some degree of success.  I experienced issues with the build plate and extruder about at about 60 hour print time.  After some great posts and advice by members such as wphthomas I got an extruder upgrade made in "Accura 60" by an SLA printer and a glass plate build plate.  I then began to print a calibration test model over and over again to see how well the printer fares.  So far what I've found is that I can reliably print "medium quality" models but not "high quality" models.

*Note: I want to stick with Makerware because of its user-friendly nature.  This printer is intended for around 15 people to use during projects.


My issues are the following:

1) Why can I print .27 mm models reliably but not .1 mm models (medium vs. high quality)?  *images 1 & 2


2) I still have issues printing "medium" quality models that approach a large size beyond 4 inches.  *image 3 & 4

[Jetguy]

Step 1 is we need to ditch the stupid naming convention. That comment
is directed at MakerBot, not you Alex
Of course a user is going to say I want high quality rather than
standard quality. The problem here is that high quality is dificult to
print at best.
It should be 0.27 labeled as Default, and 0.2 labled as High quality
and then 0.15 and 0.10 labled as Experimental.
This would solve a HUGE amount of questions for new users.

EVERYTHING must be PERFECT for 0.1mm layers to work.

The facts:
Lots of rep2 owners have warped beds
Even MakerBot more or less endorses upgrading the extruder.

So, if you haven't upgraded the above 2 things, your chances of
success at 0.1mm layer height isn't looking so hot.

Large modles warping sounds like the bed is not flat in the worst spot
(at the edges) so the part that need to stick (the edges of the part)
are now being printed so they don't stick.
Simple, go to the local hardware store and get a glass plate cut and
cover with blue tap that warps around and tapes it to the plexi bed
now. Don't forget to adjust the bed leveling for the new thicker
plate.

That will solve most of your problems. Then, print the extruder
upgrade and install. That should fix any remaining issues (air
prints).
The entire upgrade should cost less than $10, glass is only about $2
when they cut it from scrap.

On May 13, 12:58 pm, Alex Garrison <a.w.garri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm a 1.5 month user of the Replicator2 and have been enjoying it quite a
> lot.  I convinced my office to buy one and we've been using it to some
> degree of success.  I experienced issues with the build plate and extruder
> about at about 60 hour print time.  After some great posts and advice by
> members such as wphthomas I got an extruder upgrade made in "Accura 60" by
> an SLA printer and a glass plate build plate.  I then began to print a
> calibration test model over and over again to see how well the printer
> fares.  So far what I've found is that I can reliably print "medium
> quality" models but not "high quality" models.
>

> **Note: I want to stick with Makerware because of its user-friendly

> nature.  This printer is intended for around 15 people to use during

> projects.*
>
> *My issues are the following:*
>
> *1) Why can I print .27 mm models reliably but not .1 mm models (medium vs.
> high quality)?  ***images 1 & 2**
>
> *
> *2) I still have issues printing "medium" quality models that approach a
> large size beyond 4 inches.**  *image 3 & 4*
>
> <https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-FByT0CR-DUw/UZEbjo7tM-I/AAAAAAAAAM...><https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-3lrSczlt1l4/UYv25uWwnvI/AAAAAAAAAM...><https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-zYKpayEGXEE/UYv2zS_Zt2I/AAAAAAAAAL...><https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-5lTDWoAaL1s/UZEbajyfB-I/AAAAAAAAAM...>

[Alex Garrison]

Thanks for your reply.  One thing to note is that I have already made the two upgrades you describe in your response.

When you refer to everything needing to be perfect for a .1 mm print to work, what other parameters are there to tweak other than the extruder upgrade and a level build plate?


Thanks,
Alex

[BoneKollector]

I am routinely printing at .1mm (using both the "high" setting & editing the "medium" setting to a .10 layer height. But, I use the raft feature - it absolutely will fail otherwise. & yeah - this creates problems for parts that you want to merge up with one & other. I am having good success peeling away as much of the raft as I can, then using a piece of wet-dry sand paper with a little water & sanding down the remaining raft residue.

I also have both glass and aluminum build plates, the extruder upgrade & I use blue tape. Havent gotten a hang of the hair spray technique yet.

I think if I spent some time traming the glass build plate better & slowed the first layer down it might work - I need to schedule a test/calibration day soon.

[Jetguy]

Sorry, I'm having a bad day and missed the upgrades you put on. By
perfect, I meant both tramming and first layer must be perfect.
Now, I have a Replicator 1 with a heated bed, glass plate +hairspray
(Aquanet unscented), Bottleworks aluminum Z arms, and of course
upgraded printed plastic (ABS) filament drives.
The heated bed and aluminum arms in theory make my first layers and in
general, the machine more accurate and repeatable. See, that's the key
right there. It's one thing to tramm the machine and set the height.
It's another thing altogether if a different value happens each time
you print.
You lack a heated bed, and shouldn't be unlucky enough to experience
wapring Z arms, but there is a huge difference between the upgrade
aluminum and the stop plastic even in an unheated situation. Trust me,
it's worth the money.

So sorry, I was trying to help but the issue here is I don't belive
some magic setting is going to fix the problem. You are still printing
on Painters tape from the pictures, on an unheated bed. You've done
the right upgrades and obviously are trying to get it there. I would
say the next cheap thing to try is Aquanet on the bare glass and a
perfect level that is lower than the standard card test. I got the
feeling your first layer may not be low enough. It's a fine line and
most people adjust the last little bit by "feel", during the first
layer printing.

[Carl]

I print at 0.05mm almost everyday... in Nylon 618 - which admittedly has a far lower viscosity...

In PLA, I often print at 0.1mm.

When I have a chance... I will post on the mods I made to my to my stock filament feeder... hundreds of hours in PLA and Nylon and it still works! :-)

[Alex Garrison]

Thanks for all the responses everyone!

Regarding the raft on high quality, that is a good suggestion.  I have done that previously but will occasionally hit an "air print" failure still.  You can see this issue occur on one of the images I posted above.  Do you imagine this is an issue with the build plate being too low or something with the extruder or nozzle?

Best,
Alex

[Eighty]

Alex,

Since I didn't notice any mention of it from you earlier:  Are you aware that "Medium" and "High" are two different slicing engines?  Each has its own settings, and work differently.  MBI has done a terrible job of setting up the defaults on them, so your woes could simply be a matter of bad default settings.

You can fix this by creating custom profiles and tweaking the settings yourself.  But it's a bit of an uphill battle if you don't know how to use them. 

[BoneKollector]

air print w/raft - could be one of two or three things in my limited experience - others will know better-

first - yeah - build plate is not level would be the first issue i would consider, although rafts are supposed to be thicker & absorb the issue a bit, so it would have to be pretty "out".

second - dirt/grease on build plate & the plastic just wont adhere. I try to rub the blue tape on the build plate lightly with rubbing alcohol & let dry before each print.

third - Ive come across an issue on high setting where the raft is tiny - not the size of the object & when it finishes the raft & starts the part the layers outside the tiny raft are in the air. I suspect, but I haven't verified that this is due to the base of the model not being entirely flat/in alignment with the build plate in makerware. I think it would be a very subtle thing that would be easy to miss visually. again - havent verified but based on the models it has happened with & how I know they were created, that's what I think is going on.

[TobyCWoods]

+1 on the layer height naming.

I easily get high quality at .2mm layer height.

 

IMO there's more then just having your printer tuned perfectly to get .1mm and less... it's what you are printing and... LUCK!

I have had a tiny amount of stringing become just enough on a .1mm layer height print to cause a tiny blob large enough for a nozzle collision to knock the thing off the BP.

Too fine a layer height and too much PLA can easily clog the nozzle for some prints but not others.

To get success on such a fine print may take repetitions of the same print to get it down. This is why once I get a REALLY good batch of settings for a particular print I record all those settings just for that print.

[Alex Garrison]

Eighty: Thanks, I do know there is a difference (Skeinforge vs. ???) but I have no idea what it is!  As far as my experience goes, the raft and support settings on the "high" quality or skeinforge setting is superior.

Toby: That's an interesting point and has given me an idea.  I will try for my next print the skeinforge (high) exporter setting at .2 layer height and an extruder/travel speed to match the non-skeinforge setting.


At the moment, I'm printing a 3" x 7" model on a raft which seems to be working so far.  This is an odd experiment because I'm coupling the raft setting with painters tape and now a bit of elmer's glue squeezed into the raft areas.  I was careful not to glue any painters tape seams.  We'll see how that goes!

PS, I got a stronger version of the standard painters tape called "Edge Lock" made by 3M and is intended specifically for glass and metal.  It's working pretty good, not lifting.

[TobyCWoods]

Makerware uses MBI's slicer called Miracle-Gru for low and medium settings. MW uses Skienforge for High settings.

I'd try the tape if i still used tape... I don't... I am now exclusively using glass and Hairspray(aqua net).

[Alex Garrison]

An update:

With all the great advice, I've successfully completed a large 14.5 hour job with no issues.  Here are the factors I think that has ensured success:

1) Always use rafts.  This virtually eliminates early issues I was having with tearing/pulling/globing.
2) For PLA on the Replicator2, .2 mm and above works more reliably regardless of GCode setting.  No idea why, but I don't care because it prints!
3) The extruder upgrade and glass plate makes even the "medium" setting prints very smooth and consistent.  (side note: I agree with the others, Makerbot: change those names!)

Now for personal preference.  I'm going to make a plug for using rubbing alcohol to clean the glass plate and then applying this "Edge Lock" painters tape.  It's stronger than regular and if you apply it so that some wraps underneath each side, it really holds well.  As I was printing my big print, I applied some Elmer's glue into the raft grid to really secure the raft to the tape and the tape held great.  The model is virtually flat.  The tape claims to be formulated to work specifically on glass and metal and holds a better edge (hence "Edge Lock") for painting crisp lines.  It's more expensive than the regular but not by much.

Anyhow, thanks again everyone!

[Bryon Miller]

I have a replicator 2 and I print most of my prints at .15mm.  I've done .1mm but it takes too long IMHO and I sand my pieces down.

I have the extruder upgrade and I use both the acrylic plate and a Glass plate with hair spray.  The key is leveling that bed.  If it's not leveled perfectly, the higher res prints will fail.  It is a pain to get the plate leveled using makerware's "business card" technique.  I can do it now by feel, but it took forever to get that down and I had to relevel the plate a ridiculous amount of times before I got the hang of it.  Whpthomas has an interactive leveler that is used with replicator g.  I understand you want to use makerware to "keep it easy", but just use replicator g to level the build plate with the interactive level program and it should get your build area in that sweet spot.

The acrylic plate does warp, at least mine does towards the edge and makes joining large pieces together after they've been printed difficult because the joining sections are not flush with each other.  The Glass plate addresses this well, but needs to be coated down with hair spray before the print.  If you go that route, don't spray it while in the bot because the excess spray could get on the moving parts of the printer itself and you don't want a sticky substance where there should be lubricant.

Once you have leveling that plate down, printing at .15mm and .1mm should work pretty well, but it just takes a lot longer.

On Monday, May 13, 2013 9:58:40 AM UTC-7, Alex Garrison wrote:

[axillent]

Can someone point me to the guide on a mentioned here extruder updgrade and glass plate + hair spray?
Looks interesting to me as a user of Replicator 2

[Jay]

axillent,

Here's the hardware kit for the extruder upgrade from MBI
http://store.makerbot.com/drive-block-hardware-kit.html

Here's the Thingiverse page for Dr. Thomas (Windcommander) ABS upgrade...so you can print your own...
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:42250

Here's one complete on Ebay ($17 shipped)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Makerbot-Replicator-2-Delrin-Plunger-Extruder-Upgrade-Kit-Bearing-Replacement-/121101520396?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c32368e0c

Glass plate can be as simple as going to a Hardware or Frame shop and having rectangular glass cut to size (@$5)

Here's the glass plate on steroids....with inset cut-outs just like the Acrylic bed...warning...it's $70 !!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Makerbot-Replicator-2-3D-Printer-Notched-Glass-Plate-Replacement-of-Acrylic-Bed-/190824525413?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c6e072e65

As far as the hairspray....Aquanette unscented (or any inexpensive unscented one should work)....with the build plate OUT of the R2...spray 3 heavy coats and dry each with hairdryer. There's a ton of 'how to' on here for all this stuff. Search is your friend...

Jay

[Jay]

and here's the "Zero to Hero" guide for the R2...

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:71575

Jay

On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 3:59:37 AM UTC-4, axillent wrote: