Replicator 2 Replacement Motors

[Dana Cordes]

I was recently given a Makerbot Replicator 2, and am real excited to get it up an running.  But, the previous owner cannibalized out all of the motors (X, Y, Feed and Z), and I need to get replacements.  I opened a case with Makerbot, but it's been 4 days and I'm anxious to get an order out.  I see that Makerbot sells replacement Nema 17 Steppers so that should cover me for the X, Y and Feed motors.  Since I'm buying new, are there better motors that I can buy instead?  Seems like most of the Nema 17s that I see around are pretty weak compared to the stock ones (low resistance/inductance). 

The real challenge it seems is getting the Z-Axis motor.  I don't see it listed on the makerbot site, and I'm having very little luck shopping a Nema 17 lead screw stepper.

Can anyone recommend how I could best replace my motors?  If the answer is best answer is "be patient, support will get back to you", then that's ok, too.  

[Jetguy]

To be honest you are going to pay a fortune for those stock motors. They want $29 each from MakerBot and some other places charge even more.

Now for extreme sticker shock, the stock Z motor is like $90 alone.

 

You can buy from Kysan and easily get a $45 Z motor that is 100% compatible and the same specs without the insane cost. I'll try to give you some links later today. I can get you pointed in the right direct and I garantee what I will point you at is compatible and good specs.

[Dana Cordes]

On Thursday, June 19, 2014 8:58:20 AM UTC-7, Jetguy wrote:

To be honest you are going to pay a fortune for those stock motors. They want $29 each from MakerBot and some other places charge even more.

Now for extreme sticker shock, the stock Z motor is like $90 alone.

Yikes!  That $30 seemed reasonable when I started shopping for similar spec motors.  $90 is pretty steep!

 

 You can buy from Kysan and easily get a $45 Z motor that is 100% compatible and the same specs without the insane cost. I'll try to give you some links later today. I can get you pointed in the right direct and I garantee what I will point you at is compatible and good specs.

I'd appreciate it, thanks!

[Stan Velijev]

I would like to preface that I don't know dick about hardware, and Jetguy would be the expert in this area.

Jetguy: Would these be compatible at all?

https://www.adafruit.com/products/324

http://www.makergeeks.com/nestmofor3dp.html

https://www.matterhackers.com/store/printer-accessories/nema-17-stepper-motor

Price seems ok, but I don't know if maybe the stepping is different from MBI's motors, and they obviously don't have the connectors on them. 

[Dana Cordes]

From what I understand, the spec for the stock motors is bipolar, 1A, 3.9Ω and 11mH inductance, with a 24mm shaft (D-cut), a 40mm length, and 1.8 degree step angle.

So, based on that the matterhackers one has the wrong step angle, Adafruit's is only 350mA, and that makergeeks one has a shaft that's too short, and not D cut (also, unknown amperage, resistance, inductance).

I've been talking to a motor engineer buddy of mine, so maybe I'm looking too deeply into the specs...  I may be making this too difficult for myself.

-Dana

[Stan Velijev]

Well then my apologies, I'm sure Jetguy will point you in the right direction.

[Dan Newman]

On 19/06/2014, 8:58 AM, Jetguy wrote:
> To be honest you are going to pay a fortune for those stock motors. They
> want $29 each from MakerBot and some other places charge even more.
> Now for extreme sticker shock, the stock Z motor is like $90 alone.
>
> You can buy from Kysan and easily get a $45 Z motor that is 100% compatible
> and the same specs without the insane cost.

Gotcha with Kysan is their $100 minimum. (I order from them, but always
plan ahead so that I can meet the minimum and not end up with parts I don't
need lying around for a year.)

Dan

[Jetguy]

Correct, with Kysan, you end up with $100 order but ordering 4 or  motors and a 5th leadscrew motors, I'm betting that $100 is not a problem VS the $200+ this is going to cost you from MakerBot. $30 each for three motors minimum + $90+ for the Z at MakerBot is a bit over the top.

 

Also, correct, none of those linked motors will work. You must get some pretty specific specifications here, especially to not have to mod firmware or settings or even worse, hardware.

[Jetguy]

These will work fine for X, Y and the extruders for a reasonable $15 each http://www.kysanelectronics.com/Products/Detail.php?recordID=8265

MOTOR,STEP,42MM,BIPOLAR,2.8KG-CM,4.83V,0.84A

The key there is the 0.84A compatible with the default vref settings and fixed current levels the mainboard can provide.

 

Here is a suitable Z motor for $35 (note that stock was 280mm of lead screw but you'd never need it, the bot can only move 150mm at best on a good day, and a 300mm long screw hits at the top ) http://www.kysanelectronics.com/Products/Detail.php?recordID=8568

 

I think all the connectors line up perfectly.

 

Buy an extra motor if you need to hit the $100 limit. Still cheaper than buying anywhere else.

[Dana Cordes]

Wow!  Thanks!  Boy that site has every size and spec stepper there is!  Awesome!

Question about that Z-axis.  It's only 0.4A.  Isn't that rated too low?  Wouldn't maybe this one be better?

http://www.kysanelectronics.com/Products/Detail.php?recordID=8328

Or maybe that one's too long at 48mm?

-Dana

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Dana Cordes

[Jetguy]

No, you must use the 0.4 amp rated motor if you want to use stock firmware and stock settings.

Also, I don't think you can use a longer motor and no, it's no real benefit. The stock 0.4m works and is weak enough should you really screw up and attempt to ram the Z stage into something, it won't destroy the machine. Putting that 1.5A motor require massive changes just to even be able to use it, and if you do set it up and something goes wrong, on a screw like that, it can easily crash something with such force that you may break something for real.

[Dana Cordes]

Thanks for the explanation and the links.  I really appreciate it!

-Dana

[Dana Cordes]

As a followup to this thread.  I received the motors quickly from Kysan.  Their motor selection is truly amazing, and their service was fine. 

The motors you recommended seem fine as well.  I'm in the process of installing them.  The shaft length on the X(?) axis motor on the top right of the gantry is too long, so I'll be cutting it down a bit tonight (need more dremel cutoff wheels).  The motor mounted to the back top of the chassis (Y axis?) fits well, as does the Z-axis motor.  Things are going well!

One problem that I've run in to is that the original motors used a JST 2mm x6 connector, and the new motors have simple 4 pin connector (bread board style, I don't know what that's called).  I have the spec sheet for the new motors so I know how those are wired, but I don't know how those map to the all black wires in the JST connector from the makerbot.  

For reference, here's the spec sheet from Kysan:

http://www.kysanelectronics.com/graphics/1123032.pdf

And here's an image of JST connector in the Makerbot:

http://imgur.com/a/8BIqc

Can anyone help me determine the mappings from makerbot to Kysan motor?

-Dana

On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 10:57 AM, Dana Cordes <dco...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for the explanation and the links.  I really appreciate it!

-Dana

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Dana Cordes

[Jetguy]

You are thinking too hard, mapping is easier than you might believe. 4 wires in the original 6 pin connector are 1:1 left to right for the kysan. In fact. If you get long header pins and move the 1 outer wires one space over next to the inner 2 wires, then you can mate the plugs back to back with no soldering. Need the motor to spin the other way? Simply flip the motor side plug 180. It's that simple.

[Dana Cordes]

Ohhh, ok.  Thanks!  I'll give it a try.  

-Dana

On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 10:04 AM, Jetguy <barry...@hotmail.com> wrote:

You are thinking too hard, mapping is easier than you might believe. 4 wires in the original 6 pin connector are 1:1 left to right for the kysan. In fact. If you get long header pins and move the 1 outer wires one space over next to the inner 2 wires, then you can mate the plugs back to back with no soldering. Need the motor to spin the other way? Simply flip the motor side plug 180. It's that simple.

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Dana Cordes

[Jetguy]

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12693

$0.75 and enough to do 10 motors at 4 pins each. Beats the heck out of soldering. Just use heat shrink to hold the 2 connectors together and then it's fancy.

[Dana Cordes]

Even cheaper, I have a stack of those at home!

-Dana

On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Jetguy <barry...@hotmail.com> wrote:

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12693

$0.75 and enough to do 10 motors at 4 pins each. Beats the heck out of soldering. Just use heat shrink to hold the 2 connectors together and then it's fancy.

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Dana Cordes

[Dan Newman]

On 08/07/2014, 9:49 AM, Dana Cordes wrote:
> As a followup to this thread. I received the motors quickly from Kysan.
> Their motor selection is truly amazing, and their service was fine.
>
> The motors you recommended seem fine as well. I'm in the process of
> installing them. The shaft length on the X(?) axis motor on the top right
> of the gantry is too long, so I'll be cutting it down a bit tonight (need
> more dremel cutoff wheels). The motor mounted to the back top of the
> chassis (Y axis?) fits well, as does the Z-axis motor. Things are going
> well!
>
> One problem that I've run in to is that the original motors used a JST 2mm
> x6 connector,

And only four wires were used. The two outermost and the two innermost, I believe.
You can see it here,

https://www.flickr.com/photos/d-newman/14562450711/in/set-72157645313526624

which is a genuine Makerbot stepper motor.

> and the new motors have simple 4 pin connector (bread board
> style, I don't know what that's called). I have the spec sheet for the new
> motors so I know how those are wired, but I don't know how those map to the
> all black wires in the JST connector from the makerbot.

Referring to the picture cited above, we have from left to right pins 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
with orange=1, black=3, red=4, yellow=6. Those go to the Molex KK 0.156 connector
in the same order orange, black, red, yellow. If the motor turns the wrong
direction, then you either flip the connector (if the Molex header isn't polarized),
reverse the wires, or in the firmware tell the bot to invert that axis. (E.g.,
RepG's Machine > Onboard Preferences screen).

I just went through cutting the ends off a bunch of Kysan wiring harnesses and
then crimping on Molex KK 156 connectors. You can crimp the wires by hand with
needle nose pliers or get a $30 Molex crimp kit from, say, Digikey. (I don't
know that it will include the correct housings, but it'll have the tool and
crimp on connectors.) You can find on youtube plenty of videos showing you
how to crimp them: there's two crimps per connector: on which folds over the bare
wire and a second, back a few mm, which folds over the insulated wire and acts
as a strain relief.

From Digikey, the housings are WM2336-ND and the crimp terminals are WM7179-ND.
When I order from Digikey, I just get USPS priority mail and it shows up in
about two days.

Dan

[Dana Cordes]

Ahh, interesting.  That picture does show color.  On my Rep2, all the wires are black, and it's annoying.

Is a Molex KK 0.156 the same as the JST PHR-6 and B6B-PH-K-S?  I thought the JST was the standard for steppers?

-D

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Dana Cordes

[Jetguy]

No, Dan is working on a mightyboard rev E. They have big fat 4 position .156 spaced molex kk cinnectors at the mainboard. He was re-terminating his kysans with those.

In your case, the replicator 2 and 2x use mightyboard rev g or h that uses one big connector and ribbon cable for all 3 axis motors designed to terminate into the motors. You are going from that connector to standard connectors on the ends of the kysans.

Different bots, totally different connections.

[Dana Cordes]

Thanks for clearing that up!

-Dana

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Dana Cordes

[Dana Cordes]

I loved the idea of just matching then plugs, but the pins don't line up.  Is there a better way than just bending the pins to match and then shrinking tubing over it?

http://i.imgur.com/AHV4UMy.jpg

-Dana

On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Jetguy <barry...@hotmail.com> wrote:

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Dana Cordes

[Jetguy]

The pins do line up. Like I said, unlock the 2 outer and move then inward in the socket.

No bending pins, it just works and is tidy.

 

There is a tiny tab above each pin on one side of the plug. Use a needle ot something tiny to pry that up, the terminal and wire slides right out, then just locks in the other socket.

[Dana Cordes]

I understand about unlocking and moving the pins in the JST, that's not the issue that I'm seeing.  But the spacing of the header pins are different than the spacing on the JST.  By the fourth header pin, I'm just about a full pin off of the JST socket.

It's a bit hard to see in the picture, but the fourth header pin is lined up with the fifth JST socket.  I can bend the pins a bit to make a fit.  But, I didn't know if I was missing something, or maybe some other cool trick that I didn't know.

-Dana

[Dana Cordes]

Jetguy,

Thanks for your help in the past!  You are clearly the uberbrain of the makerbots!

I've received my motors, and replacement gears and JST connectors.  I finally have everything I need, and have been trying to get the motors to function, but am having little success.  The X, Y and Z motors do nothing by stutter.  I've trying every pin combination (I initially thought that was the problem), but not work.  All motors just stutter and jitter with a rapid back and forth motion.

My assumption is that the since the resistance is lower than the stock motors, I'll have to increase the voltage to get them to function at the same speed as the stock ones.  Alternatively I could increase the step delay to give the coils longer to charge, but that'd be accepting a slower print speed.  I believe I can adjust this stuff via the Onboard Preferences menu in Makerware, but am unsure exactly what settings to change.  Vref?  Do you know roughly how I should start in order to get this baby running?

Also, once I'm up and running, is there a calibration (beside height calibration) that I'll need to do?

-Dana

On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Jetguy <barry...@hotmail.com> wrote:

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Dana Cordes

[Jetguy]

Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. Not blaming you, just saying, the minor resistance change in the motors should not be a problem unless somehow you got motors far off of the specs I posted.

 

Part 2 is that sure, wiring could be different, maybe we need to somehow figure out if we have this connected properly.

 

Part3 is NO, you cannot modify Vref in any real way to make this work. Understand that the physical resistors chosen on the mainboard determine max current more so than the digital Vref setting. At best, maxing out Vref at 127 still doesn't get anywhere near over an amp of current out of the driver. They default to 118 normally and 127 is the max possible. That's not exactly night and day change.

 

Obvious answer is we don't ahve the polarity and poles wired or the stepper drivers are blown.

It's really one or the other.

[Dana Cordes]

Thanks again for the reply!

I had little success following your earlier suggestion that the pinout should be the same, or at worse mirrored. I just got motor stuttering.  Last night I went through all the 24 possible wiring combinations.  About half stuttered.  About half clicked once and then stopped.  I have a little video of the stuttering that I can post if that'd help at all.

I know the Rep2 was working properly before the original motors were pulled, and they were pulled by motor engineer guys and they didn't mess up the boards or anything.

Here's are the specific motors that I ordered.  When I get home tonight I'll confirm the part numbers on the steppers themselves to make sure they didn't send me the wrong ones.

X, Y, Feed

42BGH34-4.78D
http://store.kysanelectronics.com/servlet/-strse-71075/42BGH34-dsh-4.78D/Detail

Z

17HD-B8X250-0.4A-L

http://store.kysanelectronics.com/servlet/-strse-71031/17HD-dsh-B8X250-dsh-0.4A-dsh-L/Detail

Thanks for the info on the vref.  I know very little about the config possibilities of the Rep2, but I do know a little about steppers (not enough, but enough to confuse myself for sure!).

The X, Y and Z motors all behave the same with the same stuttering, so i don't think the driver would be blown unless a single driver is shared by all three motors.

I guess I could go back though and re-confirm the all the pin combinations.  It's possible that there was a poor connection on the combination(s) that were correct.

Is there anything else I can try?  I doubt the motors are faulty.

-Dana

[Dan Newman]

On 15/07/2014, 10:38 AM, Jetguy wrote:
> Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. Not blaming you, just saying, the
> minor resistance change in the motors should not be a problem unless
> somehow you got motors far off of the specs I posted.
>
> Part 2 is that sure, wiring could be different, maybe we need to somehow
> figure out if we have this connected properly.
>
> Part3 is NO, you cannot modify Vref in any real way to make this work.
> Understand that the physical resistors chosen on the mainboard determine
> max current more so than the digital Vref setting. At best, maxing out Vref
> at 127 still doesn't get anywhere near over an amp of current out of the
> driver. They default to 118 normally and 127 is the max possible. That's
> not exactly night and day change.

MBI firmware and Sailfish both top out the value at 118. If you set 118, you
get 118. If you set 120, you get 118. If you set 127, you get 118. One of
the poor practices of MBI to give everyone start.gcode which uses 127
when they knew it was limited to 118. Could be bad news for some people if
that limit were removed and all of a sudden their 127 really became 127.

Dan

[Dana Cordes]

Just bumping this thread.

Is there anything else that I can try with these motors?  I bought the ones that Jetguy recommended, but they are just stuttering.  I'm looking for help on where I can go from here to get my Rep2 running.

-Dana

--
Dana Cordes

[Jetguy]

Sorry, but this just doesn't make sense.

 

Data sheet says for example, the X-Y motors are http://www.kysanelectronics.com/graphics/1123032.pdf

Orange, Black, Red, Yellow.

 

OK, that should exactly match the convention of the Moons motors. Except that when MakerBot makes the harness it's not colored in any way. So from left to right they should exactly match up. First two are coil A, second two are coil B.

 

The ONLY thing it can be is wiring if it's not the stepper drivers.

 

The OEM moons motors is the 17HD4063-01N http://www.moonsindustries.com/Products/Hybrid_Stepper_Motors/HB2P_17HD/201012/W020101229841883434360.pdf

it would be the 2 phase wiring in this diagram http://www.moonsindustries.com/Products/Hybrid_Stepper_Motors/HB2P_17HD/201012/W020101229841883742668.pdf

http://www.moonsindustries.com/Products/Hybrid_Stepper_Motors/HB2P_17HD/201012/W020101229841883599534.pdf

 

Utimately, we know from both looking at the physical connector and all previous experience, the Moons are shipped with a 6 wire connector but only use 4 positions. Being this is a 2 phase motor, pretty easy that it's just 2 pairs.

[Dana Cordes]

Ok, I'll go back and review my wiring. Yeah, I can see in the JST connector that just 4 of 6 pins are used, in positions 1, 3, 4 and 6. It's simple wiring, but I could have goofed.  

What about turning down the step rate?  Is that the right term?

-Dana

[Jetguy]

No, step rate is speed of motion. You don't need or want to change that.

The current is right for those motors. Both the stock moons and the motors you bought are rated at the same current and other basic ratings.

 

The vibrating is a clear aspect you simply have them wired wrong. You may have the 2 center wires swapped. By that I mean you basically have A and B coils. If the 2 center wires get swapped, you mix A coil across A-B on the driver and the same with B coil. That would cause the same problem.

[Jetguy]

Also, do not change wiring while powered. I know, it's a pain but you will blow a stepper driver connecting motor wires while powered. The stepper driver is trying to sense the current through a given coil. Changing the coil while the driver is trying to maintain current leads to spikes and other problems. That can and has killed many a stepper driver.

[Dana Cordes]

Thank you again!  Yes, I've been careful to shut it all down before swapping wires, and then using the Job option in the Rep2 menu to test function.

I'll build a better wiring harness so I can be sure that the connections are sound and try again, and then report back.  

-Dana

[Jetguy]

One other thing you could do is unplug the stepper driver itself with the mainboard unpowered. Drop some headers into the socket. Ohm out the pin socket stepper driver ouput pins (they should be clearly silkscreened on the stepper driver and are the 4 middle pins on the one side of the socket), all the way to the motor socket. We have the A-B and color scheme for the new motors, we know that this is all pretty bog standard stepper wiring. A and then B coil.

Somewhere there is a crossing or break.

[Dana Cordes]

Another update.  I soldiered up a new harness, so I could ensure that the connections were sound.  I then compared the Moon spec sheet to the Kysan one, and confirmed what you'd already said, they should wire straight across.

But, the motor continued to jitter instead of rotate.

I did notice that it's holding torque was much greater with the Rep2 powered, indicating that at least part of the of the loop was being powered correctly.

I get the feeling that only one of the two loops is running.  When I had both pairs wired, I got jittering.  When I had B wired, and A not, I got jittering.  When I had A wired and not B, I got nothing.

I confirmed that my harness was not shorting or had a loose connection or anything, so it must be a problem originating in the driver, or a problem manifesting from the motor.

I've done all the testing that I can do with my volt-ohm.  I have a friend with an oscilloscope, and I'm gonna see if I can take the rig over there to see what's really going on.  

-D

[Scott K]

Hey, since you guys are already talking about the MBI stepper specs, does anybody have a clue what the "slightly" different part number for the FlashForge stepper motors means when compared to the stock MBI stepper motors?

MBI Steppers:  Moons PN 17HD4063-03N

Flashforge Steppers: Moons PN 17HD4063-05N

I ask because I have converted most of my machine over to match a replicator 1 and wondered if I were to buy some steppers in the future, did Flashforge get it right or did MBI get it right?  Or did they both get it right and the single different digit in the model numbers doesn't matter?

I already found the decoder ring for the Moons stepper motors but it is really vague on the last set of digits and I can't even find this exact model number on their webpage.

[Jetguy]

Last digit is simply mechanical options (shaft length, connector type, maybe even some other obscure feature).

The main electrical specs are covered in teh fist digit.

 

So it really comes down to price and fit in the application. To my knowledge, there is no substantial difference between the 2 motors.

[Scott K]

Must be something pretty obscure because the shaft is the same OD and length as the MBI motor.  As far as I can measure from the outside, they are 100% identical in ever dimension.

Good to know, I won't replace my FF ones unless they wear out (which they won't).