Rep1 Replacement Fan Question

[Hammerhead]

Having already broken blades on my extruder fans, and had to oil the (squealing) main board cooling fan already, are there higher quality fans out there (if so, please link or give Mfr/part#) and which way is the electronics cooling fan supposed to face - blowing on the board, or blowing away from the board and up into the build environment through that little corner opening?

[RocketSled]

In this size, there aren't a lot of choices and most are 12V not 24V.  I've been looking for 24V 40mm ball-bearing or FDB fans and they are mighty hard to come by.  The size itself is common enough, it's popular for computer processor heat sink fans.  But the better computer fans are all 12V and the Bot puts out 24.  You'll need to put two in series for 24V operation, or make a resistor divider to bring the voltage down.  

[Gary Crowell]

In this thing: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:33779  I found BB 24V 40mm fans from Allied Electronics at $10 each.  I will update the thing when I am finished, but at this point I've installed the dual 20mm thick fans in the base.  They produce a substantial airflow, but also produce far too much noise to live with.  I'm going to connect them in series to lower the rpms and see how that sounds.  I haven't yet tried the 10mm thick fans for the extruders yet.

Gary

On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 1:26 PM, RocketSled <rscoh...@gmail.com> wrote:

In this size, there aren't a lot of choices and most are 12V not 24V.  I've been looking for 24V 40mm ball-bearing or FDB fans and they are mighty hard to come by.  The size itself is common enough, it's popular for computer processor heat sink fans.  But the better computer fans are all 12V and the Bot puts out 24.  You'll need to put two in series for 24V operation, or make a resistor divider to bring the voltage down.  

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[Fastrack]

It's a little on the pricey side... But from the research I've done. The ebm-papst fans are one of the best fans out there.. The sintec bearings are actually better than ball bearings in some regards. I'll be ordering 3 this week.

http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/414FH/381-2367-ND/2403052

Ben

[Dan Newman]

On 17 Nov 2012 , at 9:37 PM, Fastrack wrote:

> It's a little on the pricey side... But from the research I've done. The ebm-papst fans are one of the best fans out there.. The sintec bearings are actually better than ball bearings in some regards. I'll be ordering 3 this week.
>
> http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/414FH/381-2367-ND/2403052

Any idea what the airflow is for the stock MBI fans? Airflow as in the
CFM specification.

Dan

[Fastrack]

This is the stock fan, so this one I posted is exactly the same:

http://www.fonsoning.com/en/html/2008_4_3/products.fonsoning.com_200843-167.asp

FSY40X24M

24V

1.44A

6000rpm

5.75cfm

24dBA

Ben

[jeinarsson]

I've just switched the mainboard fan to one of these
http://www.noctua.at/main.php?show=productview&products_id=47&lng=en&set=1

Using a voltage regulator (LM7812) mounted on a left-over heatsink. Probably a bit overkill, maybe getting two in series is smarter. It's really, really quiet though. Extruder fans still MBI stock since the machine is quite noisy during printing anyways..

Jonas

[RocketSled]

If you go up to 10.5mm there are more choices.  10.5mm will fit just fine I think.

Sintec is a sleeved bearing.  It's unique to EBM-Papst, and they claim it's hydrodynamic, a "fluid bearing".  I used to make HDDs, and we used Fluid Bearings for the spindle motor.  Theoretically, that's the best bearing you can have.  But...

A check of the Sintec fan specs shows an MTBF of 45K hours.  There are only 2 Papst fans at 10mm thick.  At 10.5mm there are fans from Orion (DigiKey site), one with a sealed sleeved bearing, and 4 more with balls.  The Orion sleeved fan has a 50K hour MTBF, and the Orion ball fans have 60K hour MTBF.

45K hours equates to an annualized failure rate of about 18%, meaning if you had 100 of these fans running continually for a year, you could expect 18 to fail.  60K hours gets you down to about 13%.  Still not very good, but better.  By comparison, HDDs have MTBFs of 2.5M hours or more, around 0.35% annualized failure rate.  

I'd opt for the Orion Ball Bearing fans over the Papst Sintec fans.  

[Fastrack]

Funny you bring those up!   I could not decide myself between the Orion vs Papst! (I have 50mm bolts on order so .5mm won't matter).  I was originally going to order Orion as I wanted ball bearing based fans, until I read about the "magical sintec Papst fans".  I guess I'll just order the Orion,  cheaper as well!

Thanks!

Ben

[RocketSled]

On Monday, November 19, 2012 10:49:46 AM UTC-5, HaArLiNsH wrote:

I was thinking about using theses fan too . I really love Noctua's fans . And theses ones are guaranteed 6 years.

I don't really know about electronic component so I need to be sure before I burn my mightyboard .. Are you sure we can put 2 fans in series on the Chassis/fan port (maybe with the low noise adapter ) and also change the extruder fans , using the same voltage regulator (LM7812) you mentioned on the extruder/fan port ?

What do you need to be sure 12V fans in series don't overload the MB?  You can treat the motor as a resistive load.  V=IR dictates how things behave. When you put two identical loads in series, "R" doubles.  If the voltage stays the same the current "I" is reduced by 2.  If you double the voltage the current goes back to the original level.  

According to Ben, above, the stock fan draws 1.44 Amps at 24V.  I don't think that can be right.  Papst says 800mW.  Power = VI.  So at 24V, the fan is pulling 33mA.  So you'd want a 12V fan that pulled the same current (or less).  Though I the MB must be able to handle at least a little more.  40mA would, I am sure, be fine.

But if you're going to go to all the trouble of doing this, and/or adding a 7812 regulator, you can just as easily order 24V fans from an online source like DigiKey (which, in fact, I did last night and my order has already shipped).  

[Ben Withers]

Hey.  I agree I don't think stock can be 1.44A either..  Seemed very high to me!  But that's what the chinese spec document says :) http://www.fonsoning.com/en/upload/07.pdf it's model # FSY40X24M

What fans did you order?  Orion or Papst?

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[RocketSled]

On Monday, November 19, 2012 6:17:06 PM UTC-5, Fastrack wrote:

Hey.  I agree I don't think stock can be 1.44A either..  Seemed very high to me!  But that's what the chinese spec document says :) http://www.fonsoning.com/en/upload/07.pdf it's model # FSY40X24M

What fans did you order?  Orion or Papst?

Orion ball-bearing 10.5mm fan

[RocketSled]

On Monday, November 19, 2012 6:17:06 PM UTC-5, Fastrack wrote:

Hey.  I agree I don't think stock can be 1.44A either..  Seemed very high to me!  But that's what the chinese spec document says :) http://www.fonsoning.com/en/upload/07.pdf it's model # FSY40X24M

They also show the same number for Power as for Current.  1.44A and 1.44W at 24V?  Can't be both.  If 1.44W,  that's 60mA which I guess I could believe...

[Fastrack]

Yeah let's forget the spec doc :)  I can't remember if the sticker on the fan said anything about current.   Good thing I posted as I was about to order the Pabst and after your post I'll be ordering the Orion as well :)

Ben

[Hammerhead]

Ok, it looks like I've opened up my own can of worms.

If you guys can come to a consensus on what fans are most desirable and wish to make a bulk order, I'll gladly coordinate in the same way that Adan did the glass plate group buy, place the order and ship to each of you individually.

One good turn deserves another.

[HaArLiNsH]

I love Chinese documentation ...

on the stock fan sticker it says : 24V   0.1 A      nothing about watt  but it should be if I remember school (P = U x I )   24V x 0.1A = 2.4 W

on the documentation : 24 V  1.44 A  1.44W      hum .. what to says ..

if you do (P = U x I)     24 V x 1.44A = 34.56W 

but  ( I = P/U)   1.44W / 24V = 0.06A       i think too its more this case , but we are far from the 0.1A

I've tried to get the actual power delivered with a voltmeter on the chassis fan plot on the MB but all I got was a freaking sparkle and reboot .. and now I'm scared and I wont try again :)


I live in Belgium , So I'd like to buy European fan (transport , pollution, you know ..) , emb-papst are from Germany and noctua from Austria , orion is from USA

Papst are really good fans but noctua are better and quieter . So I'll go for Noctua because I'm allergic to fan noise but

as the datasheet says (and I believe this one) , the spec from the NF-A4X10 FLX from Noctua are :  12 V   0.06A   0.6W


I've done some theoretic researches and I've come to this conclusion :

so normally , if you put 2 in series it should become : 24 V   0.06A   1.2W    witch looks like the stock fan power , and it should allow to have more air to cool the MB and the heatsink you'll need use for the next step .


As jeinarson suggested before : Using a voltage regulator (LM7812 ,so 12V regulator) mounted on a heatsink should do the job and this allow to change the extruder's fan too. :)

Someone can confirm this ?


I'm tweaking/tuning like mad my Replicator1 and I'll post soon the results on thingiverse

Also do you know why the hell they have used crap 24V Chinese fans ?   I mean , 12V fans are usually better than 24V fans

 

[HaArLiNsH]

Oh and another question , there is 3 pins on the LM7812 .

Witch ones do you connect to the fan and witch one do you connect the + and - port on the MB ?

[Hammerhead]

Ben, can you please confirm the part number so I can order a few replacements for myself?  I'm not interested in 'tweaking' with different fans, I just want my Rep back the way it was.  With four missing blades, the damned thing sounds like a DC10 taking off.

Thanks!

[Adan Akerman]

I'll definitely be in on that order: I seem to have a bad habit of jamming my calipers into my extruder fans. Seriously. I've done it three times. It's amazing I haven't lost an eye, all those fan blades flying everywhere! But they're still working... for now....

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[Hammerhead]

Adan, you probably know about this already, but if not, I've found this to be helpful.  Unfotunately I broke my blades when diagnosing the extruder drive gear, but under normal circumstances, it offers an additional measure of proteciton.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:31801

[Adan Akerman]

Yeah, I think about that every time the fan blades go whizzing past my head! And I say, "You know, I really should print one of those..."

When I'm wearing an eyepatch I'll have only myself to blame. Thanks for trying to help the hopeless :-)

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/makerbot/-/R0onjxsO-8sJ.

[jeinarsson]

Hi, the 7812 works fine thus far.

If you're only exchanging the motherboard fans, I would almost recommend trying two fans in series first. Just because it's easier to setup.

I was thinking to replace also the extruder fans eventually, and that's why I am evaluating the voltage regulator path. I have three (one for each fan) mounted on a ca 30x30x7 mm heatsink.

Please do consult the datasheet (http://freedatasheets.com/downloads/LM7812.pdf ), it has pictures of which pin is which. I'm not an electronics expert, but I think it's wise to have the buffer capacitances recommended in the application circuits (see Fig. 10 particularly). And do (I mean it) measure the out voltage with a multimeter first. Preferably using another 24v source than the printer board. Just to get things right before hooking up. Also let it run for a while with, say, a 0.1A load and make sure it's not hot to the touch. (rule-of-thumb without scientific backing ;)

I'll try to get some pictures up on a thingiverse item, but right now I'm crazy swamped with work.

Jonas

[Fastrack]

Hey.

The Orion BB fan part # is 1053-1208-ND.  Works on both Digikey.ca and Digikey.com, manufacture part # is OD4010-24HB

You'll need longer bolts as this fan does not have a recess for the bolt heads.  M3x50mm is what you'll need (4 of them).

Ben

[lassikin]

I'm also in the missing fan blades club(too much assembly and disassembly and wandering screwdriver I suppose. they break way too easily).

if you want to reduce the vibration cut off the blades from the opposite site of your missing blades, it helps a little(the sound comes from vibration that the fan puts out when it's off-balance). thinking of replacing them with 12 volts or one big 12 volt fan(of which I have plenty, from computer spares).

is there any reason why cooling the metal bar too much would be a problem? then I could just run it at 12volts from another power source 100% of the time it's on. would be quieter too than stock.

-lassi

[Adan Akerman]

I got lucky the last time I jammed my calipers into the fan: the destruction followed an every-other pattern, such that the remaining blades are: blade-blade-gap-blade-gap-blade-gap-blade-gap. Which, it turns out, is a fairly well-balanced pattern! It's surprisingly quiet. For now. I'm sure it's destroying its bearing surfaces just a little faster as a result.

Okay, somebody yell at me if I email the group again today. I'm supposed to be packaging glass plates. Work, Adan, work.

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[Hammerhead]

WORK, ADAN, WORK.  ;-)

As a followup, it seems there's no value to my aggregating an order.  It's easy to order from Digikey and they ship in small quantities so I wouldn't be adding any value there.  I just ordered 5 fans for myself presuming it won't be the last time I smash one to smithereens.

[RocketSled]

Yeah, there's no point in a bulk order.  DigiKey does offer discounts for larger quantities, but the amounts will be lost in the costs of an aggregator having to re-ship the parts to individuals.  Just order direct.  I did on Sunday night, got ship notification on Monday morning, and my fans are expected to arrive at home today.

[Hammerhead]

Agreed.  Likewise, I ordered at about 10AM today and got a shipping notification about an hour or so later.  That supplier has been Bookmarked for sure.

[Adan Akerman]

Yeah, some of us are a little slower to ship :-)

Just finished the count; 56 sheets received, only two broken. I have adequate glass to get everything out today. I'll be chatting with IGT about their busted-on-arrival policy. FYI, mine's "you get more free." Hope they play likewise.

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[Gary Crowell]

After some illness, I finally got around to mounting the Orion fans that I had ordered and described in http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:33779

The bottom line is that the 40x20mm 24V fans that I put in the bottom were way too noisy, so I wound up putting them in series and that calmed things down nicely.  Doing it again, I'd just get more of the 10mm thick fans for these positions.

For the extruder fans, I thing someone here pointed out that they are not countersunk for the socket head bolts.  I used a step drill on a drill press and that worked out perfectly, allowing the original bolts to be used.  The extruder fans are now utterly silent.  The Thing is now updated with these notes and pictures.

Gary

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[Hammerhead]

Just wanted to report that I've also had very good results with the Orion fans.  Ordered five from DigiKey and installed them on both extruders and also replaced the motherboard fan.  It sets a new level of quiet for the machine.  What a pleasure.

Thanks for everyone's input!

[Ben Withers]

I got my orion fans from Digikey as well.   Great service from Digikey as always!  Overnight shipping for $8.00 via fedex very impressive.

 

I ordered a bunch of other stuff I needed as well.

 

I like the idea of using a step bit for the heads.. anyone else done this besides Gary?  The plastic seems quite stiff, ie easy to crack.  My step bits are in very good shape and sharp. 

 

Ben

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[Fastrack]

UPDATE: Installed the mainboard Orion replacement today.  At first I did not even think the fan was running!  Craaaaaaaaaaazy quiet.  Forget the cheapo fans Makerbot uses.  For noise levels alone, the Orion fans are a great buy!

The Orion BB fan part # is 1053-1208-ND.  Works on both Digikey.ca and Digikey.com, manufacture part # is OD4010-24HB

Ben

[Hammerhead]

Ditto here.  Jeepers - those MB fans are so noisy, I was worried my Rep might be ready to take off...

Thanks to all for the aforegoing suggestions.  Problem solved.  Too bad we don't have a better forum to start with an FAQ of recommended upgrades.  The collected experience and wisdom here are priceless.

[delsydsoftware]

I know this is an old thread, but I wanted to share something that I discovered with these fans. One of my original Replicator 1 fans exploded last weekend, so I ordered these Orion replacements. I was going to use my drill press to drill out countersinks, but I decided to try something different. I removed the 2 plastic standoffs that usually go between the fan and the heatsink. This allows you to use the stock bolts, and it puts the fan right on top of the heatsink. This seems to increase cooling efficiency quite a bit. The older fans appeared to have a higher CFM, but locating the fans closer to the heatsink makes the Orion fans work even better.  Before, when I printed with the right extruder, the left extruder fan was on all the time. Temps on the left extruder hovered around 70-80C. Now, the left temps are around 53C-55C during long prints, and the left extruder fan is completely off most of the time. It kicks on briefly during the preheat phase.

The only caveat with doing this is that you must be careful to align the fans with the heatsink. You have to gradually tighten the screws, else the alignment will be a bit off. But, the printer is even quieter than it was before. I haven't run into any problems with long prints so far with PLA or ABS, so I think it's a success. I have been printing constantly since the replacement (I'm making an enormous Seej set for my nephews) with no issues.

Anyway, this might save someone the trouble of countersinking their fans or buying new screws.

[Antoine De Hon]

Just checking...how did you wire your Orion fans?

I see some folks talking about putting in series, etc...but would like a little more guidance.  

Thanks

antoine

[macouno]

Hi guys... just using this thread in stead of starting a new one.

I noticed one of my replicator 1's extruder fans is missing a blade... Would this specific fan work as a replacement? http://nl.farnell.com/adda/ad0424lb-g70/axial-fan-40mm-24vdc-4-2cfm-21dba/dp/1908888

Asking since I'm not 100% sure about electrics, and ordering from the shops mentioned above would cost quite a bit for shipping and the package would take a while to get here (the netherlands)

[Ryan Carlyle]

Would it work? Yes. But it's a downgrade in terms of airflow rate. Something with >6 cfm is ideal. More important for PLA than ABS though.

[macouno]

Thanks Ryan,

Actually there's 3 by that brand that I was looking at... all the same price.

1. 6ft/m 26dB 60mA
2. 4ft/m 21dB 30mA
3. 5ft/m 22dB 40mA

I think I may go for option 5... bit less air... but not too noisy probably

[Dan Newman]

On 23/04/2014, 8:42 AM, macouno wrote:
> Thanks Ryan,
>
> Actually there's 3 by that brand that I was looking at... all the same
> price.
>
>

> 1. 6ft/m 26dB 60mA
> 2. 4ft/m 21dB 30mA
> 3. 5ft/m 22dB 40mA

>
> I think I may go for option 5... bit less air... but not too noisy probably

Whatever you do, make sure the max current draw is under 300 mA. Those 2N7002K.15
fets that MBI uses are rated at 300 mA max @ 25C and drop to a bit above 200 mA @ 100C.
The underside of your bot never gets to 100C, I hope, but is sure to typically exceed
25C after an hour of operation.

Dan

P.S. I just had to replace the 2n7002K (Q4) for my print cooling fan on my Rep 2:
the fan shorted and took it out. Fortunately, it's a relatively easy part to
replace: no need to remove the board, even did it with the bot on its side with
the aid of a tiny piece of 2-sided thermal adhesive tap to hold the part in place.