Replicator Owners

[alex e]

Curious of what experiences people are having with the new Replicator
for those who bought in Jnauary and should have received them. Any
thoughts/issues/comments?

[JohnA.]

I don't know if anyone has gotten one yet, there was a slight delay
according to an email that was posted here.


JohnA.

[Gerald Orban]

For what it's worth, I ordered my replicator dualstruder the first
week they were on sale and it is still listed as in production on my
MBI account.

[Michael Wren]

On Feb 28, 11:00 am, Gerald Orban <gjor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> For what it's worth, I ordered my replicator dualstruder the first
> week they were on sale and it is still listed as in production on my
> MBI account.

I ordered mine on Day 1 and it is still listed as "In Production" as
well. Maybe it'll ship tomorrow...

[Zip Zap]

Apparently, MB Replicator production line really sucks.  They have to be sick in the head to expect you to wait six weeks for a small product.  It would of been much easier to just offer a kit as an option.  Even though the kits also have a six week lead time, it still only took a week to receive a kit.  Even the Ultimaker has a kit option along with a complete build option.

---

From: Michael Wren <phr...@mac.com>
To: MakerBot Operators <make...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 2:37 PM
Subject: [MakerBot] Re: Replicator Owners

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[ddurant]

> Even the Ultimaker has a kit option along with a complete build option.
 

Er.. That or only a kit option and a laserless kit option.

[Zip Zap]

What does laserless mean?  Also, does it ship overseas?  I like the modification they did by extending the bottom allowing for taller prints.  The Replicator could also go through the same type of mod.  That's another reason to have a kit option.  People are going to modify it anyway.

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From: ddurant <ddur...@gmail.com>
To: make...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: [MakerBot] Re: Replicator Owners

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[ddurant]

> What does laserless mean?

 

Just that you can also order it without the laser-cut parts.. Like, if you wanted to cut your own frame from acrylic or something.

 

They ship all over the world, AFAIK. The Ultimaker group is probably a better place for more info...

[Michael Wren]

On Feb 28, 6:46 pm, Zip Zap <zzap...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Apparently, MB Replicator production line really sucks.

I'm not convinced it is production delays alone. I've seen commits to
the MakerBot MighyBoardFirmware github repository every few days.
There hasn't been any commits to the release branch in 4 days, but the
acceleration branch was committed to only 2 hours ago.

It looks like they are (were?) still shaking some software bugs out.

[Zip Zap]

Again, they should release a kit version.  Many people out their have experience in building TOM and/or Cupcakes and wouldn't mind going through the trouble again with their past experiences.  Plus the delays are probably due to the fact that the builds are manuel and not automated.  So any problems that any of us would face would also happen with any other human being working at MB. 

---

From: Michael Wren <phr...@mac.com>
To: MakerBot Operators <make...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 7:06 PM

Subject: [MakerBot] Re: Replicator Owners

[JohnA.]

Have you watched the YouTube videos, or looked at the Replicator docs
at all?

This printer is designed to be easy, and repeatable, and reliable.
They've even built in procedures to the firmware to help level the
platform, do the initial configuration, etc.

Getting something that reliable is only going to work if they control
the assembly process. No more wondering if a hot end is assembled
right, or if it's insulated well. No more bots where some people
can warm up an extruder and HBP in 4 mins and some people take 14
mins.

I spoke with one of their engineers about this over a year ago and
repeatability and reliability were top priorities - it just took some
time to figure out how they wanted to get there.

Imagine if 100% of the new replicators come out of the box and
successfully print a demo object off the SD card in the first hour?
Quite a difference to how many people got started in this...

So that's why there's no kits. And I suspect that's why they haven't
shipped yet.

My $.02

JohnA.

> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to makerbot+u...@googlegroups.com.

[Zip Zap]

And 50,000 people die in auto accidents in the U.S every year even though top engineers and technology designed and built the vehicles.  There are going to be variables no matter how many you eliminate ahead of time.  Are you saying that the pre-built hot end isn't going to jam the moment you switch to PLA?  You mention an automated leveling feature in the firmware.  So that means no more knockdowns?  The videos show you that large red geared heart that the Replicator made.  Was it really made in one attempt?  I saw one video on 3D printers where one guy who owned both TOM and Ultimaker said that both are finicky machines despite hearing claims that the Ulti was faster than the TOM.  He didn't favor one over the other. How is the Replicator going to be any different pre-built.   

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Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:22 PM

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[Zip Zap]

Someone who has built their previous models will definitely benefit from a pre-built machine.  For someone who never had that experience is in for a wake up call the moment that hot end jams.  If your rich then just drop in another pre-built $200+ MK7 and throw away the other one which would be a waste.   Or else pull out the tools.  

---

From: Mark Cohen <markc...@gmail.com>
To: "make...@googlegroups.com" <make...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: "make...@googlegroups.com" <make...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:06 PM

Subject: Re: [MakerBot] Re: Replicator Owners

I think you are missing the point of selling it assembled. They designed it. They know how it is supposed to work. They know how to assemble it correctly so that it functions as designed and tested. So no, they will not make the same mistakes you or someone else would. All of them should work the same. They should be set up the same. No guesswork when supporting this unless you messed with something.

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[Zip Zap]

What was the difference between a pre-built TOM vs a kit?  That's a lot of 5 pound rolls of PLA.  Also, MB never even offered a hardware only kit for the TOM like they did with the Cupcake.  I can get the clear case for $235 at http://builttospecstore.storenvy.com/collections/13701-all-products .

---

From: Mark Cohen <markc...@gmail.com>
To: "make...@googlegroups.com" <make...@googlegroups.com>

Cc: "make...@googlegroups.com" <make...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:17 PM

Subject: Re: [MakerBot] Re: Replicator Owners

I have built at least 12 Makerbots. I can do this real easy now. I would not willingly do this again unless someone paid me to do it. I think your real issue for wanting a kit is that you would like them to knock $500 to a $1000 dollars off the price. Well I don't think that is going to happen as the assembly is probably a very small part of the cost. Look at what you have. Larger laser cut parts, injection molded plastic parts, large brick power supply, new electronics, precision rods, linear bearings. That costs quite a bit.

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 28, 2012, at 10:47 PM, Zip Zap <zza...@yahoo.com> wrote:

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[Zip Zap]

The build still takes time and that's what your paying for.  I've built only two cupcakes, one for $1200 and one on sale for around $700 before they drop it down even further.  Now I'm building a larger version using clear cases from http://builttospecstore.storenvy.com/collections/13701-all-products .  I believe the simplicity of the Replicator is the reason why they wanted to have it pre-built only so they can increase the price.  All the moving action is at the top and the stationary platform just moves down.  That's why the platform is larger compared to the previous models. This design is so stable that Ultimaker was able to make a taller prototype. 

---

From: Mark Cohen <markc...@gmail.com>
To: "make...@googlegroups.com" <make...@googlegroups.com>

Cc: "make...@googlegroups.com" <make...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 7:55 PM

Subject: Re: [MakerBot] Re: Replicator Owners

You are making an assumption without any real facts. I waited 3 months for my first cupcake, this is less of a wait. It took me a few weekends to put that one together, this one will work out of the box. When it comes down to it, the kit you would like is nothing more than a few pieces of wood, some rods, belts, bearings, motors and some simple electronics. There is nothing special here with those parts. As a matter of fact the thing was designed with ease of assembly in mind and it probably takes very little time to put one together. You don't really know and you can't really know what the issues are so to say they suck or that they are sick in the head is just a silly rant. I bet you didn't even order one, so why are you complaining? I in fact did order one and I'm going to take them at their word that they are taking a bit more time to make sure people have a good experience when they receive it. I'd rather they use their own time fixing the machines then me doing it.

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[sto...@gmail.com]

Many of us have seen and lived this before.

Well, we are at an important change in the evolution of a new market. Here is the change, Replicator (software and machine), in which we the fun loving will watch and yearn as technology and access will accelerate from our grasp.

The indicators. Some involved talent accelerates the condition of the software and the now older equipment's capabilities, desperate to realize excellence.

The founders have gained credibility through their vision, effort and your desire with the world. The founders, now with smart investors, begin moving to develop the equipment to supply the emerging market in anticipation of the millions who will accept and use the new tools. A large corporation, last year, began and is agressively continuing to pump over a hundred million dollars into buying the vision. They are snapping up all the small guys, spirit, technology, experience and competition they can while prices are low. We are becoming no longer the visionary leading edge geeks struggling with new tech and unreliable new developing tools. We will be relegated to straggling geeks with archaic older unrelible toys and the world of business, engineering and process will bring the commodity machines. Reliable, repeatable, easy, portable, efficient, etc.... But, guys and gals - in history - we were here. Hands on and yearning.

This change will be very fast. Smart business, Smart money and smart tech have learned how to do this. Here is where the opportunist will take the excitement and glory to leave the pioneers with ???

Plan your change or purpose now. "For the times they are a changin."

[sto...@gmail.com]

You could set up your 3D printer repair shops now. I've got my little wood pinnochio standing near me. His arm raised pointing - into the future.

[JohnA.]

Have you been over to the botcave?   It doesn't sound like you have -- and that's fine, not everyone is local.      During assembly of Cupcake and ToM kits, most of the work during the day was people with headphones on, sitting at benches with a few things:

- 50 paper cups

- a giant box of bolts

- a sheet with counts of parts

- ziloc bags

And they spent ALL day counting out parts.   I'm 100% sure that it was taking them longer to count out all of those parts than it would take someone to build a printer - especially if they'd done it before.   So for less than the cost of an assembled ToM you can get an assembled replicator that has been assembled, printed test parts before shipping, and will save them substantially on support calls and maintenance.   So the decision has been made -- rather than having people spend hours counting out 800 parts (and then maybe missing one, which frustrates the end user who doesn't care that it's only .1% error), now people get something assembled, tested, and proven.    Oh yeah, and it's $750 cheaper.

Replicator owners get to focus on printing, or at least that's the goal.   

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[David Brelsford]

I feel like I remember seeing a video a few days ago that mentioned that Replicators are being built by individuals, and they are each building 5 per day. I rememberr seeing somewhere else that the guy they had building ToM's was only able to build 1 a day. So that goes a long way toward the simplicity that is built into the machine, and the lower part count. I'm ok with it. I cant remember who posted this before, but I am excited because my hobby is designing and printing stuff on a 3D printer, not "having" a 3D printer- know what I mean. I am glad I will not have to put it together, I want to print. (besides, there are a few things that the end user has to do- its not like the UPS man will hand you a ready to go printer.....

I get wanting to put it together, that is a great experience. The way things are moving with this company, by next year there will be another bright and shiny printer or upgrade that we will be complaining about......Maybe they will have a kit by then- if the demand is truly there.

 

just my .02 as a total newb to printing, not new however to buying stuf and waiting for it....

 

thedave

[alex e]

Great discussion everyone.
I agree that we all have some frustrations on the bleeding edge
(delays, support, other challenges), but we all seem to like the
tinkering aspect, hence the demand for kits, and the enjoyment of
working with something so bleeding edge.

The next question is, is Makerbot theApple of 3d Printing, starting
with kits, then assembled machines, then growing to be a mass
manufacturer; or more like MITS with the Altair?

[W. Craig Trader]

Alex ...

When Apple first started, it was more expensive than its competitors (TRS-80, Commodore Pet), but it had one thing going for it that the others didn't: an open design.  The IBM PC had an open design primarily because IBM knew they were competing against the Apple II.  When IBM tried to close its design (PS2 models that used the MicroChannel bus architecture), it lost market dominance.  Apple, of course, now has the most closed designs of all.

I'd prefer that MBI succeed (like Apple did, and MITS did not), but that they not forget their Open Hardware heritage.

- Craig -

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[Joseph Chiu]

I think the CupCakes and ToM's are the Apple I's. The Replicator is
Apple ][, and then there's going to be some kind of Replicator+
that's going to get them "everywhere" and even non-3D printing people
will know who they are... There's already so much publicity and PR
(and MBI is doing pretty decent job of outreach) that I think they're
going to take off like Apple, and not fade into obscurity.

Besides, they have Apple's history to study and follow the map!

[Luis E. Rodriguez]

It is funny how in America we root for the underdog until they become successful.

Luis E. Rodriguez

Are you a Maker?

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Mark Cohen <markc...@gmail.com> wrote:

When Makerbot starts being considered the Evil Empire of 3D Printers
and everyone hates them, then we will know they are successful. Just
like Apple and Microsoft.

[ddurant]

> And they spent ALL day counting out parts.
 

Then they were foolish for not buying some decent scales.

 
> you can get an assembled replicator that has been assembled, printed test parts before shipping, and will save them substantially on support calls and maintenance.
 

Whether things will actually work that way is yet to be proven, I think..
 
We've all had printers that went from working fine to not working at all.
 
If your microwave oven stops working, are you going to try fixing it yourself? Well... You, John, might but the overwhelming majority of the public wouldn't even consider it an option. If you (they) have to send the whole thing back to the manufacturer to fix it, how many iterations of that dance would you put up with before giving up on it?
 
What if the manufacturer turned around and said "hey, you've sent this thing back twice and we're not going to fix it for you any more because it's beta and doesn't really have a warranty. The specs are online - have fun!"?

 
It's a interesting idea but I think we won't really know if it was genius or suicide for another year.

[Paul Breed(unrocket)]

I ordered my replicator on Jan 10th.
At the beginning of every week since I've sent an Email asking how
production is going and
when I might see my replicator. Today I got a response that says
first replciators may go out as early as sometime this week.

Paul

[Joseph Chiu]

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 9:58 AM, ddurant <ddur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> And they spent ALL day counting out parts.
>
> Then they were foolish for not buying some decent scales.
>

Now that MBI has some money to hire real production and engineering
people, that'll probably change.

The ToM is definitely not what you call a "retail" product.

And, don't even get me started about the NRTL-ness of the product.
The enclosure alone will get them slapped at some point...

[Zip Zap]

Too long. 

---

From: Paul Breed(unrocket) <paulsphon...@gmail.com>
To: MakerBot Operators <make...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 10:08 AM

Subject: [MakerBot] Re: Replicator Owners

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[Zip Zap]

"We've all had printers that went from working fine to not working at all."

That was definitely true for the MK4 extruder.  With the MK5 and onward with machined parts and even a slip on heater putting things together yourself has never been easier.  The problem back then wasn't just the user but the parts themselves.  Look at the finesse design of the MK7.  It's getting smaller and less hassle.  It's almost like sticking a drill bit into a drill.  Again, I believe that's why they want to build it themselves so they can justify a higher price.  It's really a rip off and insult to those who have bought the previous models and are willing to put it together themselves. 

The microwave analogy falls apart because as far as I know, no microwave oven kits where ever made. 

---

From: ddurant <ddur...@gmail.com>
To: make...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 9:58 AM

Subject: Re: [MakerBot] Re: Replicator Owners

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[Zip Zap]

I don't know where you live but it only took them a week to get my Cupcake kit to California.  Why other people had to wait months to get that is beyond me.  I get ordered parts from China in about the same time. 

---

From: Mark Cohen <markc...@gmail.com>

To: "make...@googlegroups.com" <make...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 10:58 AM

Subject: Re: [MakerBot] Re: Replicator Owners

Seems to be about on schedule if they said 6 from order date. Mid jan to end of feb seems just about right.

Sent from my iPhone

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[Zip Zap]

When they discontinue selling components and making you buy fully assembled extruders then it's the end.

---

From: Mark Cohen <markc...@gmail.com>
To: make...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 8:48 AM

Subject: Re: [MakerBot] Re: Replicator Owners

When Makerbot starts being considered the Evil Empire of 3D Printers
and everyone hates them, then we will know they are successful. Just
like Apple and Microsoft.

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Joseph Chiu <joe...@joechiu.com> wrote:

>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to makerbot+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/makerbot?hl=en.
>>
>
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[Luis E. Rodriguez]

Serious question, does anybody know who the Cube handles support? In the corporate world, its a maintenance lease etc… At home its a warranty that you pay a deductible to repair the furnace or microwave.

Most times people complain and bitch in these forums and it never occurs to them to email sup...@makerbot.com. It is certainly easy to sit back and imagine the how best to run an open-source company but I don't think ANY DIY 3d printer company has it licked. I see complaints on every printer forum.

What I think IS a positive sign is that this discussion is even happening. If the demand/concern/want/need wasn't there this and every other online forum for this hobby would be silent.

-- 
Luis E. Rodriguez

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[Zip Zap]

The parts they've designed have gotten smaller and more robust.  I bet they fear those advancements affecting their bottom line since they are looking more like $0.50 cent parts.  So they build an iron curtain around that by selling only pre-built machines and keeping the future users ignorant. 

---

From: Joseph Chiu <joe...@joechiu.com>
To: make...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 8:42 AM

Subject: Re: [MakerBot] Re: Replicator Owners

> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to makerbot+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

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[Zip Zap]

Apple does not have to heat up and melt plastic and extrude it through a small hole and lay it onto a moving platform.  Unless some new cheap room temperature liquid filament is invented, MB and others cannot completely close the design.  3D printers are more comparable to cars than computers.  You have to open the hood now and then to fix things.  Now there's Stil...(I can't spell it) where a laser hits a basin of liquid goo to make a 3D object.  But those are million dollar machines.

---

From: W. Craig Trader <craig....@gmail.com>

To: make...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: [MakerBot] Re: Replicator Owners

[Zip Zap]

I need a Gen4 extruder since last month.  They are even out of the $370 electronics kit.  Luckily I have enough Gen3 lying around to make my next bot work.

---

From: Mark Cohen <markc...@gmail.com>
To: make...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 11:18 AM

Subject: Re: [MakerBot] Re: Replicator Owners

I do not see that happening as a matter of fact Makerbot probably
stocks the biggest number of parts aside from Ultimachine to build and
repair. I just went to the ultimaker.com website thinking perhaps I
would buy a complete motherboard with drivers. Nope not one to be had.
Not even a listing.

[Gary Crowell]

Scales... Yes, they do.

On Feb 29, 2012 11:55 AM, "Mark Cohen" <markc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure if scales would work on such light parts.
>

[sto...@gmail.com]

What should recognise that we try to squash the little guy till he has some momentum then we root for him. Then when they become big and hungry and control many others we see they have become bad guys.

[sto...@gmail.com]

Go to instructables gor the laser, goo how to. Search: laser printer, robhopeless

[Zip Zap]

Yes, I have made some mistakes.  However, my confidence has grown since then with many more successes.  I've even tinkered with Makergear extruder parts.  I find they are not comparable to what MB offers.  Not offering a kit on the other hand only gives a false sense of security.  Newbies out there will just be more dependent on MB for more expensive pre-built parts to slap on because that will be the only thing offered eventually.  The same was true for that one 3D printer from China.  Maybe, you want MB to eventually weld the nozzle and heater block together?  Of course, what company doesn't want a higher profit margin?  And that's really the point and not some idealistic notion of some out of the box trouble free machine.  Plus, the advancements in MB design with finessed machined parts really make extruder assembly easier than baking a cake.  Compare that to MK4 with all that wire wrapping and soldering.  Then comes MK7 and one wonders why wasn't that thought of before.  Look at the simplicity.  Less is more but it also cheapens the price.  Therefore a Replicator kit would also head south in price below a TOM or Cupcake.  So they revert to only a pre-assembled kit to jack up the price.

---

From: Mark Cohen <markc...@gmail.com>

To: make...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 11:32 AM

Subject: Re: [MakerBot] Re: Replicator Owners

No Zip Zap. The reason they did this is to avoid people building it
incorrectly and then asking for support and creating a support
nightmare when it does not function. For example, on April 29th 2011 a
person in this forum, named Zip Zap, decided to replace a 100k
thermistor with a 10k one and wondered why the extruder didn't work
correctly. I told you then that the parts are not picked at random but
have a reason for being what they are and shouldn't be changed unless
you know what you are doing. They can't even think to support anything
that the user changes as that would be beyond any reasonable idea of
support. If they have a baseline for a machine, then they can offer
some support because they have the same machine in front of them.

[Zip Zap]

Furthermore, I never once called MB for support.  I got all the support here and personal effort.

---

From: Mark Cohen <markc...@gmail.com>

To: make...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 11:32 AM

Subject: Re: [MakerBot] Re: Replicator Owners

No Zip Zap. The reason they did this is to avoid people building it
incorrectly and then asking for support and creating a support
nightmare when it does not function. For example, on April 29th 2011 a
person in this forum, named Zip Zap, decided to replace a 100k
thermistor with a 10k one and wondered why the extruder didn't work
correctly. I told you then that the parts are not picked at random but
have a reason for being what they are and shouldn't be changed unless
you know what you are doing. They can't even think to support anything
that the user changes as that would be beyond any reasonable idea of
support. If they have a baseline for a machine, then they can offer
some support because they have the same machine in front of them.

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 2:09 PM, Zip Zap <zza...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[sto...@gmail.com]

Ford motor car would not have brought autos to the masses initiating the world we have today if they had not created the assembly line. Yes, there are kit cars. But, those companies do not float well.

How, many tvs and computers and printers do each of our households have? We will have multiple.... Oops. We early adopters already have many 3D printers. Too many. Ha, ha, ha.

Now, it makes no sense to argue how sensible or frugal the 5% of humanity are to make a demanded obscure statistically irrelavant point. Neither does it to demand kits from a company that has contributed greatly to making a market - Expecting them to struggle with the difficulties and complexities of kits to make a few thousand content when they can contribute to the furthering  change of human existence. If you want kits. Make them. Or buy them from Rick (MakerGear) or others. Stay small and enjoy or join to maintain the continuation of kits. Or join the revolution to become part of the new industry. Whatever the choice we grow. Some grow up, some grow down, some grow old. But, things and we do not stay the same.

How many people in the U.S.? 400 million? Plus? The early guys in MBI spent many sleepless nights for several years now. The human can not keep that up. So, to preserve one's self, to provide to others and to instill quality the company and product must grow. Babies are cute but, we would not become a mighty civilization of humans if babies did not grow to become productive and contribute. The 3D use would not become if, a level of society has to be created to support them. Back to the auto. They used to take a lot of maintenance. Then less. Now, buy, gas, and drive. Seldom, generally, needing maintenance. This gives us, the user/operator a fuller life to go places and not tend to the care of the transportation.

Back to the printer. Progression is accomplished with design and production of new ideas and parts. Not, through tinkering with the same toy. Ours we can build. MBI has a vision and to be part of it they have millions to supply. They can not be a kit company and supply millions. This forum is not likely able to support thousands or millions. At least not without a major restructure. Why? Because one line of communication can not keep manually answering beginner questions over and over or the participants don't grow.

Do you carry an iSomething? Many millions do. Altair, Commodore, Amiga and others created early hobby computers and viable PCs. They did not adjust or did not correctly or fast enough supply technology. Or they did not market better than competition. They exist in memories, museums and dust.

There is many tens if millions being spent right now to position into the market we look into. One company has spent over a hundred million ($$$) snapping up little guys and competitors and support companies around our interests. They are stepping in and buying the vision. They are not the vision but, realize it and are fast to control it. Right now new big company competition is hindering and squashing many would be 3D printing visionaries,  innovators and dreamers. Many early entrants are being eliminated from being possible future competition.

I say : Applaud the change for the MBI group. Let MBI grow. Let them create jobs to provide livelyhoods and full fun lives to many employees. Let them become part of the future rather than only its history. Wish them well. Buy and invest. You are now with memories or wiil have very soon. These are facts of life.

Say, any of you get the limited edition MBI clocks? Early-3D History for your wall or shelf.

[Harlan Martin]

Finally Shows shipped :)

[Joseph Chiu]

Well, no more software tweaking, then! The Genie's out of the shipping docks!

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[JohnA.]

Sounds like first units have finally shipped, according to this: http://www.makerbot.com/blog/2012/03/06/the-makerbot-replicators-the-shipping-team/

(And people here reporting that their order is marked as shipping / shipped)

Might see some land this week for local folks.    Let's see some prints!


JohnA.



On Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:58:13 AM UTC-5, alex e wrote:

Curious of what experiences people are having with the new Replicator
for those who bought in Jnauary and should have received them.  Any
thoughts/issues/comments?

[Anmar El-Khalil]

When did you order it? I have been checking my order status almost every hour since the email :D 

[Paul Breed(unrocket)]

I ordered mine on Jan 10th and it has shipped.
According to trackign it arrives Tuesday.

[Anmar El-Khalil]

I ordered mine on the 31st... so I guess I'll be getting it in 3 weeks or so... :(

I'm sure you must be so thrilled

[Alphacentaurus]

After waiting 8 weeks, I am one of the first guys to get mine, having ordered it just after the CES show in Vegas. It is a dual extrusion head one.
I have already printed a couple of things with it.

What can I say ? A big disappointement overall.

Positive :

1- I have got quite nice 3D prints in some instances
2- Precision is quite good. You can print small details
3- The printed parts are solid and usable ABS
4- It is certainly possible to use it to make complete RC models
5- Funny, enjoyable
6- Construction is original but nice

Negative

1- This is a toy, a gadget
2- And for almost 2000$ waaaaay too expensive
3- For this money, I can print how many things at Shapeways ?
4- A big bug in the SD card reader, be careful not to power up the device with the SD card inside its slot. Otherwise kaboom, nomore SDcard
5- The dual color extrusion is a joke. When the two heads are hot at the same time, the head not in use at one moment lets plastic traces everywhere. Black traces on white plastic is not very nice ...  This is because the two heads are at the same level and move in parallel
6- Support plate calibration on my device is not good because the support plate is not perfectly plane (or does it come from the heads mecanism ?). The middle of the plate  is closer to the heads and this makes trouble when printing starts. Either the plastic does not adhere to the plate, either spacing is too small.
7- Even with a new capton film on the support plane and with a nice acetone cleanup, printed models sometimes does not stick well to the support plate and bend and ... finished
8- Very slow printing. Prepare yourselves for hours of waiting, even for relatively small parts. And if the model does not stick well to the support plate, insert coin, do it again
9- Software (replicatorg) works, let us say it is OK but is not very user friendly.

Conclusion :

If you have a passion for 3D models / printing, lots of cash and lots of time, and if you are ready to accept a half working toy for this price, OK, buy it ! Good prints are nice looking but seem a victory in the middle of failures ...

I would say that this device would be a great purchase for 500-600$ all other restrictions unchanged (time and effort).

For rich kids ...

(note : my first 3D printer. Before I have printed a couple of models with Shapeways).

[Alphacentaurus]

And ... after browsing the internet, it seems that the issues I raised are seen by other people :

- Support plate is not plane. The middle is slightly above the corners
- Model not sticking well to the capton film is a common issue
- Colors blending ...

I would clearly recommend to stay away from the dual extrusion model.

[Mark Cohen]

Makerbot explained the SD issue at support.makerbot.com. Sounds like
they are resolving it. Contact them about the plate also if you have
an issue. I'm sure they are working on it too. Most of the issues
sound like the plate and leveling is a problem for you.

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[Joseph Chiu]

I'm assuming the quality issues will get sorted out by MBI. They want
to be in the business of selling these machines, so they have to fix
the problems for people to buy the Replicator.

But in your cons, you suggested that it's a toy, and that it's not
economical compared to Shapeways. I think that may be a question of
how you intend to use the printer.

Despite some posts on the group comparing ToM's / Replicator / RepRap
/ Ultimaker / PrintrBot, we ultimately have the same class of machines
-- a plastic filament FDM. There are other 3D printing methods
available from Shapeways. If you're primarily just downloading and
printing, and don't mind waiting a few days to receive your objects,
Shapeways is great. And because they have more than plastic FDM, some
with processes that have better feature details or different
materials, you'll come out ahead with Shapeways if you're mostly on
the "consuming" side.

But, If you want a printer that allows you to create your own objects
from scratch and iterate on it (relatively) quickly, these FDM
printers are terrific - essential, even. It's not a toy. And if
you're paying $30 for a part, $40 for fedex overnight, and 2 days for
each go around, versus $5 of plastic in a day, you'll quickly come
out ahead with your own FDM printer -- if you're making things.

3D isn't ready for the mass consumer - there's not enough content
producing tools for the mass market -- I don't mean 3D modelers/CAD --
I mean something more like "PrintShop" for dot matrix printers where
you didn't have to do any technical thinking.

BTW, back in the 1980's people compared printouts from dot-matrix
printers against the output of photo-typesetters from a printing
service. It was the same thing - quality versus speed, and the cost
tradeoff of buying a printer versus getting some commercially printed
pieces.

[John D'Ausilio]

Well said, Joseph .. I'm hoping MBI didn't make a mistake with regards
to expectations in the marketplace; though certainly not 'toys', these
bots are also not yet 'appliances'. Once can argue the same for
personal computers and many other kinds of tech. In 3D printing it
seems we're still in the early Apple II stages .. the tech is
available to early adopters either by spending tons of money
(IBM/Dimension) or accepting challenges of rolling your own or
building from kit (Apple/MBI). People who are expecting the Replicator
@$2K to behave like a Dimension @$20K have an expectations issue :)

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[Paul Breed(unrocket)]

A word about expectations...
A brand new small industrial CNC milling machine starts at about $45K
So a few years ago a company called Tormach came out with a personal
CNC milling machine for about 7.5K.
I bought one of the very first machines.

Its missing some features compared to the 40K commercial machine, but
its worked flawlessly for me for 5 years now.
It might not hold up running three shifts in a production environment,
but its perfect for the sort of prototype work I do...
It worked perfectly out of the box and if I somehow lost the use of my
mill, I would buy another tormach in a flash...

Dimension sells a commercial 3D FDM ABS printer for about 14K I've
had parts built on that machine and they
turn out really well. Its a full on industrial product....

7.5K /45K is ~ 17% the cost.
2K (Replicator) /14K industrial 3d printer is ~ 14%

So my expectations for the Makerbot were similar, I wanted a new
capability in my shop, maybe not quite as good as the expensive
commercial
part, but perfectly serviceable for personal prototype use....

So I think that 2K is priced like a consumer oriented appliance...
alas its still more of a science fair project...

Given that I'm figuring out what knobs to turn...
I build my first useful as opposed to "testing" component on the
Replicator last night... started it around 9pm and went to bed at 10
or so...
The print should have run til 1 am or so. The computer decided to go
to sleep before the last few layers finished.... but the the part is
still 100% usable..

Based on my experience with my machine the out of the box temperatures
are set too low...
220C is default,I tried 225C that worked better, much better.... so
last night I tried 230 better yet, the part is really a single solid
piece not a bunch of glued together strings.

When I have some time I'll to drag out my calibrated temperature
measurement stuff and figure out if its a setting or calibration
issue.

[Aljosa]

Can you explain the problem you have been having in a bit more detail? The default profile has been extensively tested. I choose 220 as the temperature for a few reasons but mainly because it was a good balance of the correct amount of heat for both ABS and PLA. I can't say I have seen any complaint about the extruder temperature yet so I'm intrigued by your issues and id love to know your specific situation to see if I can't replicate it here in house.

Pumping more heat into the system can actually hurt you in the long run and affect print quality. Depending on what your printing and how complex, and delicate its features are. There is no absolute perfect number for everything, and you will often come across a print that needs its own specific settings in order to come out good.

> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to makerbot+unsubscribe@​googlegroups.com.

[Mark Cohen]

You should print from the sd card of possible and unplug the usb, then
the sleep part wouldn't happen.

[Dan Newman]

On 22 Mar 2012 , at 11:05 AM, Mark Cohen wrote:

> You should print from the sd card of possible and unplug the usb, then
> the sleep part wouldn't happen.

Or disable the sleep on your computer. If using a Mac, Lighthead's
Caffeine application is nice for making temp settings like this.

Dan

[Mark Cohen]

Well there is an intermittent problem where repg or the computer may
stop a print from SD. It's hard to pin down and is rare now. But just
the fact that when you start fiddling around with RepG while it is
printing you could cause the print to die means that you are better
off unplugging the USB wire.

[Dan Newman]

On 22 Mar 2012 , at 11:26 AM, Mark Cohen wrote:

> Well there is an intermittent problem where repg or the computer may
> stop a print from SD. It's hard to pin down and is rare now. But just
> the fact that when you start fiddling around with RepG while it is
> printing you could cause the print to die means that you are better
> off unplugging the USB wire.

Definitely printing from SD is preferred. No timeout problems, however, rare.
(And that seems to be what the occassional issue is with RepG. Doesn't help
with the ToM and Cupcake that the firmware also has one possible trouble
spot in this area where there are mismatched time units for one of the commands.)

Dan

[Paul Breed(unrocket)]

At a default of 220C the prints are very fragile.
Most of them break before I even get them off the heated base.
They are basically strings loosely glued together.
You can actually find a string end and unwind it from the print.
No part has no resiliency at all, its very brittle.

At 230C the one part I built came off as a solid part.
Details were good, and you can "squeese" or deform the result (its
basically a hollow cone)

The previous prints I'd done would "shatter" along the layer lines if
you tried to test their strength in any way.

Question about production?

Do you do do a proper calibrated temperature test on each temperature
sensor in final inspection?
Its real easy to have tolerance build up to leading to errors...
Looking at the Mighty Board schematic I see Max6675 This is +/- 9LSB
(2.25C) at 5V +/- 3C cold junction compensation +/- 2.5C tolerance of
the thermocouple.
I doubt your paying extra for +/-1.5C Class 2 TC. I've also seen cheap
thermocouples not even meet the class 1 spec.

This gives a full possible range of +/- 7.75 C with all components in
tolerance. (Not likely to have all three errors off in the same
direction, but if you build enough units you will find that
combination)

Also not sure where your thermocoluple wireing changes from TC wire to
copper, if you don't run TC wire all the way to the sensor your not
actually measuring the
TC temperature, only the difference between the TC hot end and the
point where the wireing switches back to copper.
So if you switch to copper wire up at the extruder head then any
temperature difference between the point the wiring changes to copper
and the MAX6675 chip would be added to your error budget.
(Unless the MAX chip is on an especially hot area of the PCB this
would tend to decrease the temp reading not increase the temp.)

I've been building real hardware in a production environment for a
very long time (30+ years) and over and over again I've seen random
events defeat analysis and process.
If you don't actually test the final result going out the door you are
never actually sure what you shipped....

> > makerbot+unsubscribe@​googlegroups.com<makerbot%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.

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> > > > For more options, visit this group athttp://

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> > .

[Ethan Dicks]

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Dan Newman <dan.n...@mtbaldy.us> wrote:
> .. Doesn't help

> with the ToM and Cupcake that the firmware also has one possible trouble
> spot in this area where there are mismatched time units for one of the commands.

Oh? This comment intrigues me. If there's a mismatch, then is there
also then a solution that was implemented after a specific version of
the firmware? I have no problems hacking into firmware. I'm already
running semi-custom stuff to drive my Revar LCD (so I run my CupCake
from SD with nothing hanging off the serial/USB cable).

-ethan

[dob71]

I wouldn't say that dual extruder is a bad choice. It has a great potential. 

It's still in my plans to try printing something like http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5255 by enclosing it in water soluble PVA. 

I do not see a way to print in on an extruding printer with just 1 hotend.

 

My RepRap is modified to run 2 hotends: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:16523

The leaking of plastic form the idle extruder is an annoying problem, but can be dealt with. The solution was to do extra retract when switching extruders. It worked pretty well for ABS. PLA was still leaking a bit, but I was able to produce useable prints even in PLA:

http://www.thingiverse.com/image:109729

[Jetty]

> Oh?  This comment intrigues me.  If there's a mismatch, then is there
> also then a solution that was implemented after a specific version of
> the firmware?  I have no problems hacking into firmware.  I'm already

There was no solution implemented, I spotted yesterday:

In Host.cc:
HOST_TOOL_RESPONSE_TIMEOUT

Milliseconds are used for the timeout instead of microseconds, so it's
a factor 1000 out.

Also, generally RepG can choose to reset your print often a few hours
into it. The temperature monitoring can also cause timeout. Plus USB
Serial Comms + printing is more CPU intensive on a 16MHz 8bit cpu,
than just reading SDCard and printing. Also, the fastest the comms
runs at is 115200 bps, so you have a bottleneck whenever you use USB.

[ddurant]

> Also, the fastest the comms runs at is 115200 bps, so you have a bottleneck whenever you use USB.

 

Is this on a Mega? I thought the current Marlin used 200k or 250k...

 

Either way, I don't think comms is really the bottleneck. Some machines can print lots of details very, very quickly without showing signs of running that pipe dry.

[Jetty]

> Is this on a Mega? I thought the current Marlin used 200k or 250k...

It's not Marlin. It only has the Marlin acceleration.

> Either way, I don't think comms is really the bottleneck. Some machines can
> print lots of details very, very quickly without showing signs of running
> that pipe dry.

115200 / 10 = 11,520 bytes per second

The standard move commands takes 26 bytes + a a few extra for
handshaking. Lets call that 30 bytes.
11520 / 30 = 384 moves per second.

At 100mm/s. If you wished to maintain that speed, then 100mm/s / 384
= 0.26mm resolution.

Then when you factor in other processing that needs to be done and
acceleration, it's a bottle neck.

To prove it, just print from Rep G and SD Card with any accelerated
firmware and you will see print time differences. I would expect
you'd also see them non-accelerated when approaching accelerated
speeds.

[ddurant]

> It's not Marlin. It only has the Marlin acceleration.
 

Ok. I misunderstood and thought you meant arduino maxes out at 115k - you're saying current makerbot firmwares max out there..

 

> 11520 / 30 = 384 moves per second.

> At 100mm/s. If you wished to maintain that speed, then 100mm/s / 384= 0.26mm resolution.
 

So.. 1/4mm moves at a sustained 100mm/s?

 

That's not really convincing me that comms is a bottleneck.  :P

[Travis Driscoll]

I ordered a dual extrusion model on Jan 15th.  It's still listed as "In production"  If anyone ordered after Jan 15th and has had their's ship, let me know so I can run circles around the room in confusion and dismay for a while.

I see some that ordered on Jan 10th have received theirs already. 

[Gerald Orban]

Hi Travis,

I ordered my dualstruder Replicator on Jan 13th: it shipped last Wednesday and arrived yesterday. Here's hoping you receive yours soon!

[Travis Driscoll]

Suhh...weet!  

A lot of people that have received their units already are finding that their printing beds deviate from the planar by up to 1mm, but usually by 0.5mm  In early March, Far McKon acknowledged this and said that they had daily meetings on the issue.  I'm wondering if there's been any improvement.

[Dan Newman]

On 24 Mar 2012 , at 11:58 AM, Travis Driscoll wrote:

> Suhh...weet!
>
> A lot of people that have received their units already are finding that
> their printing beds deviate from the planar by up to 1mm, but usually by
> 0.5mm In early March, Far McKon acknowledged this and said that they had
> daily meetings on the issue. I'm wondering if there's been any improvement.

Take a sheet of aluminum, fasten it around the edges with nuts and bolts,
and then heat it up. It's going to generate a depression or crown towards
the center in order to relieve the stress of thermal expansion. At least
if it's thin 1.5 mm alumimum. Use a much thicker plate and it will probably
start distorting the PCB and wooden holes its bolted through (and also warp
some as well).

To prevent it, don't bolt your Al plate down. Tape it down with Kapton
tape instead as the tape will have give and allow the plate to expand/contract
in the (x,y) plane without having to escape along the z-axis.

Dan

[Gerald Orban]

Yup, I can confirm that my HBP does deviate from planar quite a bit once it's at operating temperature (I don't have the tools handy to measure exactly how much atm) and I'm looking forward to hearing MBI's solution.

Tuning and calibrating this thing has been a lot of fun and I can't wait to see how far it can be taken!

[Travis Driscoll]

Putting it that way, it seems obvious that there would be an issue.  Heated platforms aren't a new thing.... it seems like they couldn't have avoided addressing this.  Overlooked, forgotten, or lost in the frenzy, perhaps?

My impression was that people were seeing distortions at room temperature.  Is that so?  

I wonder if they're leaving the factory warped, being warped during transit, or during first run?  I'll curb my enthusiasm as best I can and measure the platform before I even plug the unit in.

[Tony Sacksteder]

Overall, very good so far. Had composed a lengthly note of first few days, but ^++! Ipad browser crashed and hosed my draft. Will post details later.

Tony

[Dan Newman]

On 24 Mar 2012 , at 7:25 PM, Travis Driscoll wrote:

> Putting it that way, it seems obvious that there would be an issue. Heated

> platforms aren't a new thing….

Yes, it's not a new problem: ToM and Cupcake owners have experienced this as
well. What's new for MBI bots is that this is a much larger build platform.
So, as far as absolute deflection goes, it's more noticeable, jumping right
out at you. And, from personal experience I can assure you that bolting down
the center of the plate is not a fix: it just lifts the PCB with it. At least
it did on my ToM. I used to wonder why I'd see some folks using binder clips
or tape to hold their glass or metal plates down….

Dan

[TheBFR]

How bad was the deflection on the TOM with the HBP? Do you think this
was the reason they went with aluminum tape with the ABP?

[Dan Newman]

On 25 Mar 2012 , at 11:17 AM, TheBFR wrote:

> How bad was the deflection on the TOM with the HBP?

Enough to be noticeable when levelling the platform while
at operating temperature. Around 0.2 - 0.3 mm as per my
dial indicator. That's in the neighborhood of a layer height.

> Do you think this
> was the reason they went with aluminum tape with the ABP?

The evolution of MBI heated build platforms started with the cupcake.
The first ones used the Al foil tape. The 1.5 mm Al plate was a later
refinement added with the Cupcake Heated Build Platform v2.0. I rather
imagine that they used the Al foil tape with the ABP because of clearance
issues and having a belt run over the corners and edge of an Al plate
probably would not have been all that good for belt life.

Even with the early ToMs, using the Al foil was the intial development,

http://wiki.makerbot.com/thingomatic-doc:heated-build-platform-assembly

Also, I think the ABP also pre-dated MBI offering an Al plate. The ABP
was available towards the end of the Cupcake's life and at the birth of
the ToM. And given the the initial ToM HBPs didn't come with an Al plate,
I suspect (no longer recall) that the Al plate was a later development.

Dan

[Jeremy Green]

I think the al build plate came along in about may of '11. That's when I ordered one and I think I ordered it the minute it showed up in the store.

- Jeremy

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