Re: [MakerBot] Left extruder on Replicator dual does not center

[Dan Newman]

On 23 Mar 2013 , at 7:08 PM, MaikaiGuy wrote:

> Hopefully this is a simple problem to fix. I'm trying a simple
> dualextrusion example... printing two cube wafer layers of different
> colors. I'm using OpenSCAD and creating a 10x10x1mm cube. Then I creat a
> 10x10x1mm cube raised 1mm off the platform. I merge these with Replicator
> G - Sailfis - 0040.

Merge them how? Are you using the dualstrusion menu to slice each STL
and then have them merged.

> The issue is the two wafers print 33mm apart from each other... the exact
> distance betwee the two extruder nozzles. The right extruder prints in the
> middle. The left extruder prints 33mm to the left.
> If I rewrite the OpenSCAD description and move the left wafer 33mm to the
> right, all is good. The wafers print in a stack.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.

This suggests that you never did a "reset EEPROM to factory defaults" after
installing Sailfish. Please do that if you have never done it. Then

1. check your X & Y Toolhead offsets. They should either be both about 0 mm
*or* X about 33 mm and Y about 0 mm.

2. check the Toolhead offset system setting via the bot's LCD display (Utilities > General Settings).
Since you are using RepG 40 - Sailfish, it should be set to "NEW" which is the default.

Dan

[Dan Ujvari]

Many thanks!  I'm on a biz trip for a few days, but I'll try this when I get back.

Dan

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[Ted Larson]

I am actually having a similar problem……I thought it was an issue with the alignment of the two models before dual extrusion, but after looking at it more, it appears to be a Y-axis alignment issue of some sort.  If I print something from the left nozzle, it is off almost exactly 4mm from the right nozzle in the Y-axis.  I just took the same model….and made Gcode for the left, and the right separately.  Ran the first layer, and then looked at where it tried to put the first layer down when I ran it again from the other nozzle.    I temporarily fixed the problem by just offsetting the two models by 4mm in my STL files.  What would I need to do to apply a 4mm offset to the Y-axis on one nozzle in the EEPROM?

 

Thanks,

 

-Ted

[DronE Pump]

Very curious that this is coming up as an issue now (fortuitous really).  The problem I am about to relate may not due to the same reasons but the symptoms are very similar.

I did follow all the instructions when Sailfish was installed - First installation and then setup including resetting to factory defaults.  I run a Rep1 dual and have been printing very well with sailfish using the right extruder.  It aligns centre and does all that it is expected to do.  But last night I used the left extruder for the first time since installing Sailfish:

When it starts a print with the right extruder the head positions at top left, drops the anchor and begins the print.  When it starts a print with the left extruder the head positions at top right, drops the anchor and begins the print way over to the left end of the platform by at least two inches.  I went over the default settings in the instructions and all seems right - I am obviously missing something here...any ideas please?

[Dan Newman]

On 25 Mar 2013 , at 2:09 PM, DronE Pump wrote:

> Very curious that this is coming up as an issue now (fortuitous really).
> The problem I am about to relate may not due to the same reasons but
> the symptoms are very similar.
> I did follow all the instructions when Sailfish was installed -
> First installation and then setup including resetting to factory defaults.
> I run a Rep1 dual and have been printing very well with sailfish using the
> right extruder. It aligns centre and does all that it is expected to do.
> But last night I used the left extruder for the first time since
> installing Sailfish:
> When it starts a print with the right extruder the head positions at top
> left,

Top left? Top right? I'm not sure what you are referring to.

The typical start.gcode places the extruder carriage at the front of the bot
and to it's left hand side.

> drops the anchor and begins the print. When it starts a print with
> the left extruder the head positions at top right, drops the anchor and
> begins the print way over to the left end of the platform by at least two
> inches. I went over the default settings in the instructions and all seems
> right - I am obviously missing something here...any ideas please?

Check your Home Offsets. Typical X axis home offset is 152 mm.
Also check all your Home Offsets and Toolhead offsets. You may have
the fun "multiplied by 10" issue which harkens back to something
MBI was doing that Sailfish started to follow but then abandoned.

X Home around 152 mm
Y Home around 75 mm for a dual, or 72 mm for a single
Z Home around 0 mm

X Toolhead offset around 0 mm or 33 mm [can be either, Sailfish doesn't care]
Y Toolhead offset around 0 mm
Z Toolhead offset around 0 mm (if it even appears -- it's ignored in the code)

Dan

[Ted Larson]

Very curious indeed.  I am also running a Replicator Dual, and have recently gone to Sailfish.  I have noticed I get different anchor behavior from the left versus right, although it is not as you are describing for me.  The left extruder seems to lay an anchor line that doesn’t go at a diagonal to the middle of the platform….it seems to move along the front edge of the build platform about half an inch before it starts the diagonal move.  I was originally just thinking maybe the default gcode for the left and right extruders weren’t the same in RepG during the anchor code…..I haven’t taken the time to investigate if they are the same or not.   I also did a reset to factory defaults when I installed Sailfish.

[Dan Newman]

On 25 Mar 2013 , at 2:48 PM, Ted Larson wrote:

> Very curious indeed. I am also running a Replicator Dual, and have recently
> gone to Sailfish. I have noticed I get different anchor behavior from the
> left versus right, although it is not as you are describing for me. The
> left extruder seems to lay an anchor line that doesn't go at a diagonal to

> the middle of the platform..it seems to move along the front edge of the

> build platform about half an inch before it starts the diagonal move.

That's normal.

> I was
> originally just thinking maybe the default gcode for the left and right
> extruders weren't the same in RepG during the anchor code…

The gcode is the same. That's just the bot moving the carriage over as
part of making that toolhead positioned where it should be.

Dan

[DronE Pump]

Thanks Dan,  will look at offsets again to make sure.

With top left / top right  -  I meant that when using the RIGHT extruder - the start.gcode places the extruder carriage at the front of the bot 

and to it's left hand side. 

And when using the LEFT extruder - the start.gcode places the extruder carriage at the front of the bot 
and to it's right hand side. 

[Dan Newman]

Sound like you have the x10 issue with the offsets. To get different
behavior that requires different start gcodes for each extruder and
that doesn't exist. Nor does any mechanism in RepG to select different
start gcodes based upon the left vs. right extruder.

Dan

[Dan Newman]

On 25 Mar 2013 , at 2:52 PM, Dan Newman wrote:

>
> On 25 Mar 2013 , at 2:48 PM, Ted Larson wrote:
>
>> Very curious indeed. I am also running a Replicator Dual, and have recently
>> gone to Sailfish. I have noticed I get different anchor behavior from the
>> left versus right, although it is not as you are describing for me. The
>> left extruder seems to lay an anchor line that doesn't go at a diagonal to
>> the middle of the platform..it seems to move along the front edge of the
>> build platform about half an inch before it starts the diagonal move.
>
> That's normal.

BTW, that's normal for the NEW dualstrusion / offset system which MBI
introduced. In it, the bot has to move the tool head the full offset.
In the old system, the ideal offset was incorporated into the gcode
produced by RepG (39 and earlier). Thus, you only saw the toolhead
moved by some fraction of a millimeter -- the deviation from the ideal
offset.

Dan

[DronE Pump]

That makes sense.  I will follow up as per you earlier instructions.  Thanks

[Ted Larson]

Interesting.....good to know that is normal behavior. I am freaking loving
Sailfish. The machine is a totally different animal since upgrading.

-Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: make...@googlegroups.com [mailto:make...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Dan Newman
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 2:52 PM
To: make...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [MakerBot] Left extruder on Replicator dual does not center

On 25 Mar 2013 , at 2:48 PM, Ted Larson wrote:

> Very curious indeed. I am also running a Replicator Dual, and have
> recently gone to Sailfish. I have noticed I get different anchor
> behavior from the left versus right, although it is not as you are
> describing for me. The left extruder seems to lay an anchor line that
> doesn't go at a diagonal to the middle of the platform..it seems to
> move along the front edge of the build platform about half an inch before
it starts the diagonal move.

That's normal.

> I was
> originally just thinking maybe the default gcode for the left and

> right extruders weren't the same in RepG during the anchor code.

The gcode is the same. That's just the bot moving the carriage over as part
of making that toolhead positioned where it should be.

Dan

[Ted Larson]

Its funny that, extra little bit of anchor line actually is usually a better
anchor and is less likely to pop when the head goes ripping to the middle at
120mm/sec....I have come to like using the Left extruder over the right just
because of it.

-Ted


-----Original Message-----
From: make...@googlegroups.com [mailto:make...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Dan Newman
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 4:23 PM
To: make...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [MakerBot] Left extruder on Replicator dual does not center

[Dan Newman]

On 25 Mar 2013 , at 7:29 PM, Ted Larson wrote:

> Its funny that, extra little bit of anchor line actually is usually a better
> anchor and is less likely to pop when the head goes ripping to the middle at
> 120mm/sec....I have come to like using the Left extruder over the right just
> because of it.

Ahhh thanks for posting that. You see, I felt the same way but had in the back
of my head that maybe I ought to do something about it just so it didn't bother
people by being different. However, having independent confirmation that someone
else has a feeling that it might actually work better adds fuel to my lack of
action on the matter.

Dan

[DronE Pump]

 This did indeed turn out to be the X10 problem!  I had never encountered this. 
   Thanks Dan.  Much appreciated.

[Dan Ujvari]

Hey Dan,

I got back from my business trip and tried this.  No dice. Same result.

I "Reset motherboard to factory settings" and checked the X & Y toolhead offsets.  They are -0.3 and -0.599 respectively.

I was unable to check Toolhead offset system setting, because I could not find it.  It is not listed under the general settings on the machine's LCD.

The way I merge is using the "Merge .stl for DualExtrusion" under "GCode" tab.  I create two .stl files using OpenSCAD.  The first is a 10x10x1mm wafer. The second is a 10x10x1mm wafer 1mm above the build plate.  Both wafers should be centered in the build plate.

When printing, the first wafer (at build plate level) is about 33mm off to the left.  Then the second wafer is printed in the air (1mm above the build plate) in the center of the build area.

It seems like my printer does not know the left extruder is about 33mm to the left.

On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 11:31 AM, Dan Newman <dan.n...@mtbaldy.us> wrote:

Dan

[Dan Newman]

On 27 Mar 2013 , at 12:30 PM, Dan Ujvari wrote:

> Hey Dan,
>
> I got back from my business trip and tried this. No dice. Same result.
> I "Reset motherboard to factory settings" and checked the X & Y toolhead
> offsets. They are -0.3 and -0.599 respectively.
> I was unable to check Toolhead offset system setting, because I could not
> find it. It is not listed under the general settings on the machine's LCD.

That then means that you are either (1) not running Sailfish, or (2) are
running a version of Sailfish which does not support RepG 40's dualstrusion
system.

> The way I merge is using the "Merge .stl for DualExtrusion" under "GCode"
> tab. I create two .stl files using OpenSCAD. The first is a 10x10x1mm
> wafer. The second is a 10x10x1mm wafer 1mm above the build plate. Both
> wafers should be centered in the build plate.

You need to start with STLs that are known to work with RepG's dualstrusion
system. For example, it's very easy to produce STLs in a CAD package
which appear to satisfy the correct requirments but which will not work
in RepG (owing to lack of origin information or other details). There are
models (STLs) on Thingiverse which are known to work for dualstrusion with
RepG.

> When printing, the first wafer (at build plate level) is about 33mm off to
> the left. Then the second wafer is printed in the air (1mm above the build
> plate) in the center of the build area.
>
> It seems like my printer does not know the left extruder is about 33mm to
> the left.

Or you're using RepG 40 - Sailfish with a version of Sailfish which does
not support RepG 40's dualstrusion system. You need at least Sailfish 7.1,

http://jettyfirmware.yolasite.com/v71-v42.php

and Sailfish 7.1 definitely has a setting for selecting the toolhead offset
system in the LCD display under Utilities > General Settings. It's near the
end of the list (e.g., on screen 3 or 4).

Dan

[Dan Ujvari]

Dan,

Came back from second biz trip this week and tried again.  Yes, I was running Sailfish, but version 7.0.  I upgraded to what appears to be the latest release, 7.3 (R942C).  I'm running ReplipcatorG Sailfish 40r11.

Looks like the left head is better centered, but for some reason is about 10 or 15mm +Y and about 5mm + X.  

Calibration seems to work OK.

I'm not all that interested in printing out other people's dual extrusions, but it's a good suggestion.  I'd rather understand what's going on so I can do my own.  I've been doing them successfully for some time by just building in the offset into my code.

I'm kind of bushed.  I also installed my new aluminum arms. :-)  Long day with biz and fun.

I'll search the web tomorrow, but if this new offset issue is something you can point me to quick, I'd be grateful.

On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 11:31 AM, Dan Newman <dan.n...@mtbaldy.us> wrote:

Dan

[Dan Newman]

On 29 Mar 2013 , at 5:49 PM, Dan Ujvari wrote:

> Dan,
>
> Came back from second biz trip this week and tried again. Yes, I was
> running Sailfish, but version 7.0. I upgraded to what appears to be the
> latest release, 7.3 (R942C). I'm running ReplipcatorG Sailfish 40r11.
>
> Looks like the left head is better centered, but for some reason is about
> 10 or 15mm +Y and about 5mm + X.

Need more context to know what you mean. You mean the offset between
something printed with the left extruder vs. right? That either
means you need to correct your toolhead offsets. Ideally, they should
both be 0 mm. You should look in Machine > Onboard Preferences from
RepG 40r11 - Sailfish and see what they are. Again the ideal values
are

X Toolhead Offset: 0 mm (or 33 mm; either value is okay)
Y Toolhead Offset: 0 mm

If you run the calibration script when you already have bad values,
then you basically continue to have bad values. That script doesn't
wipe the slate clean. (When used with good, working toolhead offsets
it does the right thing making minor adjustments.)

And you need to make sure that your gcode agrees with the version
of RepG AND the Toolhead Offset System selected in the firmware. You need
different dualstrusion gcode for RepG 39 and earlier vs. RepG 40 and later.
This is explained in the Sailfish 7.1 release notes,

http://jettyfirmware.yolasite.com/v71-v42.php#a7

> Calibration seems to work OK.
>
> I'm not all that interested in printing out other people's dual extrusions,
> but it's a good suggestion. I'd rather understand what's going on so I can
> do my own. I've been doing them successfully for some time by just
> building in the offset into my code.

I'm not too sure what you mean by that. Either you use RepG 39 or earlier
and the two STLs have the exact same origin OR you use RepG 40 or later
and the two STLs have the exact same origin. Either way, the two STLs
are expected to have the same origin. If you have been offsetting the
two STLs from one another, then you have been off doing your own thing.
While that can be made to work, you have to have a very thorough understanding
of exactly what RepG does and exactly what the firmware does to make it work.

Dan

[Dan Newman]

>> I'm not all that interested in printing out other people's dual extrusions,
>> but it's a good suggestion. I'd rather understand what's going on so I can
>> do my own. I've been doing them successfully for some time by just
>> building in the offset into my code.
>
> I'm not too sure what you mean by that. Either you use RepG 39 or earlier
> and the two STLs have the exact same origin OR you use RepG 40 or later
> and the two STLs have the exact same origin. Either way, the two STLs
> are expected to have the same origin.

That is, the two STLs are not supposed to be offset from one another.

Dan

[Dan Ujvari]

Wow Dan, 

Thanks for responding so quickly!

Yeah... that did it.  Sorry, but I've bleary eyed and have been over worked for a couple few weeks now. ;-)  I wish I had more time for this.  Maybe I'll take a vacation and just devote it to stuff I like to do.  Oh... yeah... I'm married... never mind.

Many thanks!

Dan

[Dan Newman]

On 29 Mar 2013 , at 7:03 PM, Dan Ujvari wrote:

> Wow Dan,
>
> Thanks for responding so quickly!
>
> Yeah... that did it. Sorry, but I've bleary eyed and have been over worked
> for a couple few weeks now. ;-) I wish I had more time for this. Maybe
> I'll take a vacation and just devote it to stuff I like to do. Oh...
> yeah... I'm married... never mind.

Thanks for the follow up. I take it things are working now?

If you think being married is a draw on personal time, wait until you have
children….

Dan

[Eighty]

+1 to that, Dan!

[Dan Ujvari]

Parenting?  What do you want to know?  Been there, done that, paid for college, got the tee shirt.  

Holy smokes!  Wingcommander said something I can agree with!  I wouldn't have it any other way either.  Those were awesome years!  I worry that those were the best years of my life, because I can't imagine anything more rewarding than those years.  Now I stick around waiting for grandchildren.

On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 11:10 PM, Wingcommander whpthomas <m...@henri.net> wrote:

+2 but I do love them - wouldn't have it any other way.