First layer after raft STILL not sticking

[Eric Bates]

I had found a similar thread, but didn't see a solution for my problem.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/makerbot/raft$20sticking/makerbot/AioQK1pAceU/n04N5_QUcWsJ

Using a 2X with the latest Makerware.

I Seem to be able to print the raft fine, but the problem is the first layer after the raft is printed. The print head is just too high above the raft surface.

Ive trammed using the bed_leveling_2 object. This prints out nicely. There just seems to be a problem with printing, post raft. So far my only solution is to quickly dial up the platform until the plastic starts attaching properly to the raft. (haha, its a bit ridiculous doing it this way as it throws the bed out of level for the next print.)

Has anyone else experienced this?

Thanks!!

[Dan Newman]

On 2 Sep 2013 , at 2:02 AM, Eric Bates wrote:

> I had found a similar thread, but didn't see a solution for my problem.
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/makerbot/raft$20sticking/makerbot/AioQK1pAceU/n04N5_QUcWsJ
>
> Using a 2X with the latest Makerware.
>
> I Seem to be able to print the raft fine, but the problem is the first
> layer after the raft is printed.

Rafts normally have at least TWO layers: the base layer and the interface
layer. So, by writing "after the raft is printed" do you really mean after
all base and interface layers of the raft have been printed? Or, just after
the the base layer? If you do mean after all the raft layers have been
printed, then make sure that your STL is actually starting at Z=0. If it
is slightly above Z=0 then MakerWare may bot be adequately handling that
for you? (Would seem odd, but you never know.) In RepG you can tell
RepG to put the STL on the platform at Z=0. Or there might be some other
issue with the STL which you can correct with, say, netfabb.com's (free)
online "cloud" service which repairs common defects in STLs.

Dan

[Eric Bates]

Ah, yes, I mean all the raft layers (base + interface layers).

Also, Im using the "High" setting (0.1mm), with raft and supports.

So, I exported a gcode file from makerware (normally I print from USB), and I noticed one thing that might be the issue:

G1 X4.413 Y3.854 Z0.850 F5400.000 A308.289; Support

G1 X4.295 Y3.454 Z0.850 F5400.000 A308.299; Support

G1 X-20.644 Y3.454 Z0.850 F5400.000 A308.910; Support

; Slice 4

; Position  0.85

; Thickness 0.1

; Width 0.4

G1 X-20.644 Y3.454 Z0.850 F1500.000 A307.610; Retract

G1 X-20.644 Y3.454 Z1.300 F1380.000 A307.610; Travel move

G1 X-11.553 Y3.028 Z1.300 F9000.000 A307.610; Travel move

G1 X-11.553 Y3.028 Z1.300 F1500.000 A308.910; Restart

G1 X-11.495 Y3.072 Z1.300 F2636.290 A308.911; Spur

This is the place in the code where it transitions from raft/support to model. The height before is Z0.850, but after it moves to Z1.300. This is much too big a jump for 0.1mm layer heights and is basically the problem I'm experiencing. Am I missing something?

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[Dan Newman]

On 2 Sep 2013 , at 12:17 PM, Eric Bates wrote:

> Ah, yes, I mean all the raft layers (base + interface layers).
>
> Also, Im using the "High" setting (0.1mm), with raft and supports.
>
> So, I exported a gcode file from makerware (normally I print from USB), and I noticed one thing that might be the issue:
>
> G1 X4.413 Y3.854 Z0.850 F5400.000 A308.289; Support
> G1 X4.295 Y3.454 Z0.850 F5400.000 A308.299; Support
> G1 X-20.644 Y3.454 Z0.850 F5400.000 A308.910; Support
> ; Slice 4
> ; Position 0.85
> ; Thickness 0.1
> ; Width 0.4
> G1 X-20.644 Y3.454 Z0.850 F1500.000 A307.610; Retract
> G1 X-20.644 Y3.454 Z1.300 F1380.000 A307.610; Travel move
> G1 X-11.553 Y3.028 Z1.300 F9000.000 A307.610; Travel move
> G1 X-11.553 Y3.028 Z1.300 F1500.000 A308.910; Restart
> G1 X-11.495 Y3.072 Z1.300 F2636.290 A308.911; Spur
>
> This is the place in the code where it transitions from raft/support to model. The height before is Z0.850, but after it moves to Z1.300. This is much too big a jump for 0.1mm layer heights and is basically the problem I'm experiencing.

Yes, that's a problem and likely what you're experiencing. I don't
use MW enough to offer you any corrective advice.

Dan

[Eric Bates]

Thanks anyways Dan! I just submitted a ticket to Makerbot, hopefully they have a solution.

In the meantime, has anyone else experienced this?

Thanks!!

Eric

Dan

[Eric Bates]

Quick update. With the latest makerware 2.2.2.89, I tried many variations of quality with and without rafts, then checked the gcode. In all cases using a raft causes the 4th layer to be printed much too high (.4mm to .55mm height jump). I'm sure if this was a bug, others would be having this issue as well.

So I'm printing with supports ON and rafts turned OFF. This seems to be working fine.

Ill post here when I hear from Makerbot.

[Steve Johnstone]

Hi Eric,

Have you checked to see if your build plate is warped?

Please note that I'm certainly no expert, but the problems you describe are similar to the ones that led me to check my plate.

I basically use wingcomander's build plate leveling procedures. He has made a  fantastic series of youtube video in which he explains things really well.... especially useful to anyone new to 3D printing with a Replicator 2/ 2X. This is the link to his build leveling chapter - 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GA8Vu-G4pi8&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLY43a4R38CkFwgi5AE_1E9xI3KuT6k9mc

Using the interactive method to level the plate, I could get it to print with in the area of the disc. If I moved too far away from the disc I ran into difficulty.

If I placed the the disc in one of the corners and then leveled the plate interactively, again I could print in that region, but moving away caused problems - see pics.

I hope that makes sense.

[Jay]

Dan,

FYI...the 'new' rafting system has 4 layers..

1st layer is the usual wide dashes.

2nd layer is a thin, widely spaced diagonal one

3rd/4th layer are 'floors' or solid panels...

The part get's build on this last layer...

Jay

[Eric Bates]

Steve,

Yes, this was one of the many problems Im working my way through. I received a new build plate from makerbot last week, and its much flatter. Im actually using that test print for leveling already and its printing fine. I can print objects fine, the problem comes when Im using rafts, there seems to be a big height jump in the gcode after the first 4 layers of the raft.

Jay,

That makes sense from what Ive seen in the gcode. Slice 4 would be the 5th layer(counts from 0). The weird thing is the next 4 layers after the raft are all at Z1.300. This can't be right! Ive tried reinstalling makerware, and slicing different models. But anytime raft is checked I get this behaviour. 

G1 X4.413 Y3.854 Z0.850 F5400.000 A308.289; Support

G1 X4.295 Y3.454 Z0.850 F5400.000 A308.299; Support

G1 X-20.644 Y3.454 Z0.850 F5400.000 A308.910; Support

; Slice 4 

; Position  0.85

; Thickness 0.1

; Width 0.4

G1 X-20.644 Y3.454 Z0.850 F1500.000 A307.610; Retract

G1 X-20.644 Y3.454 Z1.300 F1380.000 A307.610; Travel move

G1 X-11.553 Y3.028 Z1.300 F9000.000 A307.610; Travel move

G1 X-11.553 Y3.028 Z1.300 F1500.000 A308.910; Restart

G1 X-11.495 Y3.072 Z1.300 F2636.290 A308.911; Spur

[Eric Bates]

I heard back from Makerbot right away and they suggested making a custom profile and adjusting the "raftModelSpacing".

This seems to be the problem. The default *high settings have a spacing of 0.35mm (which is exactly the gap I was seeing in the gcode as well) and this was causing all my problems. I set this back to 0 and prints have been working perfectly. 

Thanks to everyone and makerbot for the incredibly fast replies!

[Dan Newman]

On 3 Sep 2013 , at 4:17 PM, Eric Bates wrote:

> I heard back from Makerbot right away and they suggested making a custom
> profile and adjusting the "raftModelSpacing".
>
> This seems to be the problem. The default *high settings have a spacing of
> 0.35mm (which is exactly the gap I was seeing in the gcode as well) and
> this was causing all my problems. I set this back to 0 and prints have been
> working perfectly.

Begs the question of why they have such a large gap for 0.1 mm layer heights.
Sort of sounds like it's asking for problems as witness your experience. Did
they say if this was an oversight / bug in their profiles?

Dan

[Obfuscated]

Out of curiosity are you printing with ABS or PLA?

[Eric Bates]

Dan, seems like a bug to me. I asked Makerbot support that very question. Ill let you know what they say.

Obfuscated, I'm using ABS.

[Eric Bates]

Heres the response from Makerbot:

>>

I was speaking with the software team, the distance between the raft and the model appears to change with each profile. In most cases they are on far side, as the goal with the new raft design was removability. The raft design is still being perfected, but in most cases proper leveling will result in a good rafted print. Of course, if necessary the custom profiles are available to allow editing of the slicing profiles for specific models.
>>

Looks like it's still work in progress, might work/not work in some situations. Custom profiles are my best friend now!

[nickythegreek]

I've been having this same issue.   My circular first layers have all been coming out more of a hexagon due to my 2x printing the fourth layer in the air.  Makerbot's print preview even shows this tiny gap.  Hoping this fix helps to remove this issue.

And this is a perfect time for me to check out how this ProfTweak app works!

[Federico Boldori]

I have the same problem: 

Raft print (medium setting, not so much custom profile, edited only the filament diameter), material is ABS (quality one, +-0.04)

First layer are really far from the top raft layer.

Result is a not so good quality of first layer. I will try to adjust raftModelSpacing setting on the medium profile.

The Makerware version i use is the latest one (2.4.1.24)

[Eric Bates]

Hi Federiko,

Yes, sounds like the exact problem I was having, and it was also my chance to get into editing custom profiles. 

Its a great idea to just read through this occasionally. Some things start to make more sense as you go along.

http://www.makerbot.com/support/makerware/documentation/slicer/

Take a look at this (just make this smaller if it's too much of a gap):

"raftModelSpacing". Millimeters.

This setting defines the vertical gap between the top of the raft and the first layer of the object being printed. Positive values create a slight gap between the top raft layer and bottom object layer, making the object easier to remove from the raft, but also resulting in a less smooth first layer for the object. Negative values print the object into the raft, resulting in a stronger bond between the raft and the object. This setting affects only the first layer of the object. Subsequent layers will always be printed at the same height relative to the raft.

I think Makerbot did their best to come up with some generic profiles, but they just arent going to work as is for everyone or every type of print. So dont hesitate to jump in and tweak settings, and see what happens.

Hope this helps,

Eric

--

[big_red_frog]

I recognize that part :-)

I will be interested to see how one turns out in ABS.

I can print these in PLA on my rep2 with raft on these models, with no particular issue.