Replicator 5th Gen rough lower layers in prints, how to avoid?

[Ryan Brodowicz]

So on most of my parts, the lower layers of my prints, from the bottom up to usually layer 5-10, there will be this rough exterior, almost 'bubble' texture like the hot plastic squeezed out the sides from pressure of the higher layers? I know that was probably not what happened but that's what it looked like. 

Here's an album of some shots trying to show the rough layers, I can try and get better pictures if those are not good enough to see: http://imgur.com/a/tHwar

Could this be caused from the oils on my hands when I was feeding the filement in? Or maybe the active cooling fan is not kicking in until higher layers? All settings that I am using for these are all defaults from Makerbot Desktop (Standard, High).  

[Jetguy]

Most likely this is bed leveling issues( resulting in bad/ less than optimal first layer nozzle height issues). A slightly warped platform can cause this variation as well, hence why glass bed plates are such a recommended upgrade for almost all machines.

[Jetguy]

However, with a 5th gen you already have glass. Thus this is a result of faulty bed leveling and homing errors. Just because the latest firmware no longer throws up errors, duh, the hardware still doesn't work right and now the firmware just ignores it . Hence ehh I refuse to even think of buying a 5th gen now.

[Jetguy]

[Ryan Carlyle]

What are your print parameters? Shells / infill % / roofs / floors? I would guess you're over-extruding on the floor layers (due to bad tramming or poor volume calibration) and it's squeezing extra plastic out the sides until the gaps in the later infill layers make room for the built-up excess.

[Jetguy]

It's s 5th Gen. Really I'm surprised nobody smart picked up on this. We know using the nozzle as a limit switch is a bad idea. Might sound great on paper but sucks in real life and right here is proof. Because that's ALL the 5th gen user has they are at the mercy of the firmware. Makerbot then turned the tables to mask the fact they know the system is unreliable. That doesn't magically "fix" the hardware and make it reliable. So now the novice user assumes they followed the instructions and the bed is properly level EXCEPT the latest firmware simply loosened the tolerance on the trip point of the sensor now guaranteeing the user has no chance of getting a perfect tram. Because they are new users, they are just bliss the error message went away. The stupid (Makerbot) leading on the blind ( novice users).

I'd try to be nice about it but come on, you know, I know, exactly how they are handling this and deceiving users into thinking they are "fixing" the problem. I'm done babying and supporting Makerbot. A line has been crossed.

[Joe Soap]

Opinions vary, and I trust you will appreciate that my experience of 3D printing is limited when I make the following comment.

My brief experience with a 5th gen was by-and-large positive. From a user perspective I think it has the capability to be a winner. Plate leveling using two wheels with a picture painted on the bot showing you which way to turn was a significantly more positive experience than me trying to perform the same function with my FF Creator. So I lost some ability to get into the intracacies of fine tuning the print - for me that was no big deal, the bot was producing acceptable through not perfect prints for me almost literally out of the box, whereas with the FF Creator I had hours of fun trying to figure out how to get the darn thing to produce a print! I think those with aspirations of wanting to be able to get close to the hardware (thru the firmware, which has gone proprietary with the 5th gen) so as to iron out imperfections, are more likely to be disappointed.

So, ease-of-use - winner.
Ability to do micro-surgery on bot control - loser.

I think the land of 3D printing is currently in a state of turmoil, where different companies are looking to get a slice of the market. I rather expect in a couple of years time things will have settled down a bit and 3D printing will be that little bit more mature.

[Ryan Brodowicz]

I was using 4 shells, 15% infill, and default roof/floors from Makerbot Desktop (High or Standard settings). 

I have recently started using only one shell, maybe more if the parts are full of large pieces only. 

[Ryan Carlyle]

I don't remember the default floors unfortunately. I never use more than two floor layers because I usually tram close for adhesion and that makes the floors over-extrude until a non-100% infill layer is reached. If that's not your issue, I would try new filament.

[Ryan Brodowicz]

Thankfully I think I figured out what caused this, it was the multiple walls. I have been printing with just one wall and have not noticed it nearly as bad as it was with 4 walls. I think I'm just going to print everything with single walls from now on. 

[Ryan Carlyle]

If having multiple walls causes surface finish problems, it's >90% likely that you were over-extruding. Maybe because your filament diameter or packing density (feedstockMultiplier) was wrong, or maybe because insetDistanceMultiplier was too low. I usually print with iDM at 0.99 but it's very much a calibration thing and you should start with 1.0.

[Arthur Tilly]

Sorry for bumping this thread, but I'm still trying to see where all my posts have gone.  Three so far, all disappeared.  Are they moderated?  Why does it take so long for them to come through?  24 hours to moderate isn't conducive to conversation.

Are there any real forums or other areas for discussion of Makerbots and problems?

[Jetguy]

Good luck there finding another place that candidly talks about 5th gen. They (MakerBot), long ago killed the only forum they actually hosted on their servers. So cheap that they just lean on the Free Google groups to be their forum. 

FYI, only your first post after joining is moderated. If you spammed off a ton of posts after the first one was held in moderation, then they might get round2it sometime in the next century.

So the good new is that once you are a confirmed member and obviously your post did come through you can now post freely. That said, if you are using email to post, that right there could be causing your messages to be auto flagged by Google's spam filter. Since this is a public forum started by MakerBot, yes, they do watch it and occasionally moderate for language or serious abuse but honestly, you sound like you got caught in the new user trap more than anything.

On Friday, May 2, 2014 6:05:54 PM UTC-4, Arthur Tilly wrote:

[Jetguy]

There is always this group but few if anyone owns a 5th gen and thus that group is mostly the old tech crowd from this group https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/3dprintertipstricksreviews

Basically, we review new printers, occasionally have a basic tip or guide about a mod but it's not that active of a question and answer group and certainly you are unlikely to get much 5th gen tips over there.

This is the correct group with the largest population of 5th gen owners (somebody guessed maybe 30 5th gen owners earlier today at best).

One thing to point out, this is users helping other users. You aren't really going to get MakerBot support here, they use the phone system or tickets for real hardware issues.

[Arthur Tilly]

Thanks Jetguy.  It does look like it was a first-up confirming issue.  Shame about that, there must be plenty of people who want to post here but can't and maybe aren't quite as persistent in trying.

I am happy with the 5g so far, and there are always liable to be alarming-sounding messages on a board such as this.  Compared with Macrumors, everyone here sounds happy as Larry :-)

But there are a number of things that I wish Makerbot would fix, most importantly their support.  Two support issues raised so far (one is that the auto-levelling doesn't work at all, and the other relating to the nozzle head remaining at 230C continually after a print, and therefore blocking further printing).  No response from them other than robot acknowledgement.

So we need to help each other out over here, I suppose.

I fixed the bed levelling issue (light won't go on regardless of front adjustment) by packing under the table to raise it to where it needed to be.  This is perfectly good enough when using a raft, which I seem to need to do anyway as otherwise the first layer warps all the time.  With a raft, even when part of the raft is a bit mangled, the raft itself fixes the levelling of the table and the print itself is fine.

My only solution to the overheating issue was to remove the extruder, and blow hard and constantly at the heatsink while rebooting the Replicator.  Once it had woken up, I put the extruder back and all was fine.  A bit weird though.  The temperature was showing constantly at around 230C, even after removing/replacing filament a few times, and whatever other things I tried.

I have noticed (and see no reference to it in the documentation) how different the filaments are though.  The white prints extremely well, without much stringing, but is very brittle and a b***h to get off the raft.  Anything printed in black seems to be mostly string.  The orange is much more flexible, but gives a lot less detail.  I haven't tried the translucent ones yet, but look forward to doing so as there are reports of it printing well on here.

Look forward to learning more from you guys...

[spineytoad]

I've had lots of opportunity to work with support, don't open a support case, it won't work, just call them.  When my exturder clogged (I'm on my forth) I just call in the morning and then ship another one out that day and I get it the next day, after the call I re-pack the clogged one and send it on it's way. Odd ;thing about this current extruder, it seems to be holding up, I've done a lot more printing with it.

 

 I did get homing errors on the last one, I think because it had clogged already, so just call them and they will take care of you, probably replace the extruder.  I'd call that afternoon again if I haven't seen a tracking number. I paid too much money for this thing to not be able to print,  I have a project I am working on with a client and it was annoying to say the least, kind of embarrassing to tell them it is broken again!  So don't mess with it, you'll be wasting your time, the leveling should work right off the bat, through all the extruders I've had, none of them had have had leveling issues, level once and it is done (I think on the 2nd extruder I leveled it twice), so if it is having issues, there is something amiss inside of it.

 

[Arthur Tilly]

Sadly their service isn't really that good.  They can't rely on couriers when shipping things globally.  It took a month to arrive here (NZ) and it'll be two months to send back an extruder and receive another one.  If you ship worldwide you need to make sure your product just works.

[xj5373]

My 5th generation machine (and digitizer) has just gone back to Makerbot and I got my full refund ( thanks to 3D Print Centre) so that reduces the 30 to 29!
UK based, I had to send the 5th gen machine straight back to MBI as it had on arrival a broken part that resulted in spurious X axis movement. I offered to repair it myself if they sent me the part I needed, but they would not do this and insisted that it be sent back.
Makerbot do not have robust shipping processes - the machine got stuck in customs on the way back to MBI (missing documentation) and stuck again on the way back to the UK requiring the payment of £250 VAT (incorrect documentation). I had to pay the additional VAT to avoid the machine being shipped back to the US, and live in hope that MBI might refund me as the problem was their incorrect documentation.
The repair sheet reported that no spare parts had been used so I can only assume that the machine was still broken and as I could not face the angst of starting the process all over again, and in the light of the many problems people are reporting on this group, I decided to send it back.
These machines were shipped in the UK before local service was available, however I understand from Computers Unlimited (the importer) that this will be in place soon so the situation should improve with spares and trained technicians being available - looks like they will be busy for a while!
I am just deciding whether to start again with something else or hold fire for a bit until things settle down.
Ian