Re: Replicator Z18 - Nightmare

[HelpingHands]

Hey, if you have it, could you scan or photograph the unboxing instructions? I'm interested in their directions for setup on a 10k product... If they don't ship it in a working state, that'd a critical step!

On Thursday, June 26, 2014 1:20:50 AM UTC-4, Scott Ramirez wrote:

Quick intro: I am a Mechanical Engineer, I own the Replicator 1 (whats left of it after 6 months of attempted repairs), and today I just received my Z18.

The nightmare starts 03/11/2014.... The day I "pre-ordered" the Z18.

I was expecting the Z18 to ship shortly after they started accepting pre-orders, end of march, beginning of april...

Did not realize that they were going to wait until the summer solstice, THE LAST DAY OF SPRING.

Whatever though, ITS THE Z18, THE MOST AMAZING PRINTER MAKERBOT HAS COME OUT WITH.

You would think that the 5th generation printers would have some process control, possibly some quality control thrown in??? NOPE.

They were just acquired by Stratasys!?!? Shouldnt there be laser beams and automated arms removing your prints and leveling your build plate by now?

I am not a troll that goes on the web crying and complaining about every single thing thats wrong with my life and the product i received, no, i just want stuff to work!!!!!

Today my Z18 arrived, I am 26, and let me tell you that my level of excitement was that of a 5 year old on christmas. I stayed home from work just so i could be here when it arrived and print

motorcycle-helmet-sized prints all day.

UNBOXING:

1. there is a drop force gauge on the side of the box, i was pretty impressed with that UNTIL i saw the little blue arrow, which indicates it had been dropped haha.

no big deal, it was wrapped in about 1 foot of foam. It bothered me but i proceeded, I waited 3 months i wasnt going to let a little drop sensor ruin this. IF IT WORKED, i was going to be happy.

2. being an engineer makes you very detailed oriented, FIRST thing i noticed when i unwrapped it from the plastic was the color of the exterior side walls of the machine! ONLY THE FACE PLATE IS BLACK!!!!!

the other 3 sides are sheet metal with a crappy computer power module finish. I couldnt even believe it. In the renderings on their website its black, at CES it was black!!! Haha ok ok, so strike 2 right?

No worries, not going to let a little paint kill this, so i proceed.

3. open the build chamber door, NOTHING IS TIED DOWN, there was two boxes floating around freely inside this thing the entire trip from Brooklyn to San Diego.... Who knows what kind of damage

was done in that time. One box was on the build platform and one was below it on its side, visible signs it was being shaken around like popcorn during the trip. ehhh... a couple 2 pound cardboard boxes never hurt any one.... I PROCEED.

4. I finally get this titan of a machine onto my dining room table with the help of a 1000 men, plugin the power flip the on switch. Takes about a solid 5 minutes to power on, very unimpressed by that, but hey, its a large machine.

So a little message pops up on the main display, "update firmware to continue". Easy enough, ill just go get my laptop and have this thing printing up Halo armor in no time! This is where it gets fun.

5. connect my laptop to the printer via USB, my computer immediately makes the sound we nerds wait for, "duh-dun" means the computer has recognized a device and is searching for drivers, that was short lived. It kept on making this noise over and over and over again, non-stop until i had to finally mute my speakers. Simple enough, I just thought the computer was freaking out because i didnt have the drivers for the device installed yet. Download makerbot desktop.... and no dice. software doesnt see the printer and the computer kept making the usb recognized sound.

6. after about an hour of troubleshooting this problem, turning off the printer, turning it back on, restarting my laptop, disconnecting the USB... etc NOTHING worked. And since the initial startup wizard was locked until you updated the firmware i couldnt turn on wifi for an alternate method of connection. Well crap... is this thing a 10k POS on my table right now? At this point my blood was starting to warm.

7. after failing via USB i tried ONE last thing i could think of, i connected it to the LAN port on the back, YES!!! The software saw the printer, i connected and proceeded to upgrade the firmware. It was a pretty lengthy process but i was excited that prints were in my immediate future. Took about 5 minutes to download the update to the computer, then about 10-15 to transfer to the printer, another 10-15 to verify and another 10-15 to install. 4 hours had passed since i unboxed, but i was finally getting somewhere.

8. After the firmware installed the machine restarted it self, my eyes lit up as it walked me through the wizard right up until ERROR 13 tool is not attached..... I was getting scared at this point. But I didnt lose hope. I opened the top lid and wiggled the smart extruder around a bit and made sure it was securely fastened. At this point, im stuck on leveling the build plate, the machine will not do ANYTHING if it detects this error. After 20-30 minutes restarting the machine and messing with the extruder, NOTHING. I dont give up easily, especially when it comes to something i just paid 10k for. So I went to the main menu and found the "attach smart extruder" option, i thought this was my problem... I disconnected the extruder and followed the instructions, clicked "attached extruder" now the machine was saying "smart extruder attached" so i went back to the level my build plate command... ERROR 13... at this point i was done. I had exhausted all options in the software, i clicked every single button, (none of them work, which is strange). So i messaged makerbot on facebook. They responded quickly with a number to call.

9. got ahold of makerbot tech support around 5pm, I had received my printer at 10am PST. Tech specialist just told me to do everything i had already done but i anticipated that, at this point i was ready to throw in the towel and just get a refund. The specialist said he would overnight me a smart extruder.

10. So that is where i am right now, there is 10k paper weight on my dinning room table. A big hunk of crap if you ask me. 

So I will post another update when i get the new extruder, but this will be makerbots absolute last chance with me. If it does not work PERFECTLY when i get the replacement i will get a refund and proceed to start an ANTI makerbot campaign for poor souls that dont know what they are about to get into.

I leave you with this... DO NOT BUY A MAKERBOT 3D PRINTER.

*side note, i opened the system status menu, it says the extruder temp, the ambient temp, and if the door is closed or open. It would not give an extruder temp, an ambient temp, and even the door was open or closed, it said closed... haha this is a joke.

Does any one have suggestions for a legit large build table printer??? Someone that has PERSONAL experience.

[Tiffany Diorio]

Hey Scott, 

 We really appreciate that you're working with us and want to apologize for the negative experience you've had so far. I saw your messages on Facebook and had Andy get in touch with you about resolving some of these issues. If you have any other questions for him please feel free to reach out and ask. 

Sincerely,

Tiffany

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[Scott Ramirez]

I do have them, I can send them to you when I get home around 4pm PST. There was a couple things that are very confusing in the initial setup;

-filament tube: they dont elaborate on this, but the tube doesnt actually get pushed into the extruder with the Z18, its purely a guide and the filament gets pushed in, they dont specify this in the instructions.

When i first loaded the filament i routed the tube into the extruder just like my Replicator 1, but then i noticed the tube stuck up and interfered with the top lid of the Z18, so i just went by what the picture showed.

Its just confusing because you would think the picture is showing a "process".

[Scott Ramirez]

I forgot, they are actually in the manual:

http://download.makerbot.com/z18/MB_Z18_UM_Final.pdf

On Thursday, June 26, 2014 10:38:58 AM UTC-7, HelpingHands wrote:

[Or Cohen]

Sometimes products a damaged during shipping

Then the manufacturer is being tested by how good the customer service is, and in this case, they promptly offered a solution. 

 

I see no reason why you'd want to shame MakerBot, before even getting a replacement extruder. 

[Wraven]

Following this thread as we have purchased the Z18 as well and are waiting for ours to ship. (pre-ordered 04/01/2014) 

[K C]

Since you asked for large build table printer. You can consider Duplicator 5. Priced $2000 - 3000. 

No personal experience (I really want to get one though), but you can easily find user reviews and printing videos online. 

Reviews:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/wanhao-printer-3d/fzZSYHQN4_0

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/wanhao-printer-3d/FQrAy184jLo

Printing videos:

printing life-size worldcup trophy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-6Eg70ghb4

printing boat paddle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MW2NEI7Z5k

printing statue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH9MZt9Y0sM

printing toy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orEK8Fwm2UY

Definitely one must-get for me. When I have the cash though...

[Clinton Hoines]

Could also go with a large scale Delta, just picked one from a friend in the US. All aluminum water cut parts 110volt HBP, 24 volt main power 16" diameter build 18.5" tall build height dual extruder auto bed leveling (that works ;) )  For right around the $2000 mark.

[K C]

Hi Clinton, 

Do you have a link to that printer? Some printing videos would be good too. 

Do they sell that printer in the UK? 

[Scottbee]

And it looks like the wizards are on their way to unlocking it (running Marlin)... which opens it up to other slicers like S3D.

[Scott Ramirez]

***UPDATE***

Today i received the replacement smart extruder, same error.

I will be returning my Z18 and purchasing the Airwolf HDx in 4 weeks.

I will say that makerbot support was extremely helpful and fast. They sent me the replacement smart extruder within a day, and also

now that i am returning it, they are sending me all the necessary packing materials.

Well makerbot, it was an adventure.

Oh and i also made a dumb error in my first post, i said it was GREY on 3 sides, that is NOT true, there is grey protective coating over the black!

Its extremely hard to get off, so dont damage your printer doing so.

All in all, the Z18 is an amazing idea and looks awesome... it's no where near production ready. They need to recall all 5th gens and scrap the smart extruder.

Hope this gave some insight. Nothing in my posts were exaggerated at all. Just an engineer looking for a 3D printer that works is all.

-Scott

On Thursday, June 26, 2014 10:38:58 AM UTC-7, HelpingHands wrote:

[Ryan Carlyle]

Just a suggestion, you might want to look at the Fusion F306. It's in the same class of "super prosumer" as the Airwolf but the F306 is better built, larger build area, and actually cheaper. Only downside is the lack of enclosure. 

[tlocane]

Hi Scott … I returned my 5th Gen MakerBot and bought the Airwolf 3D HD. I had ordered the HD several weeks before they announced the HDx. If I decide I need the higher temps, I can offer the HDx hot end. I also considered the Fusion F306 Ryan mentions.

I decided on the AW3D for several reasons … shipping costs and size. The F306 simply won't fit in my studio until I am able to move into my new studio (probably a year away); it's physically too large for my current space. Shipping to NYC was almost $250 while shipping the AW3D was considerably less (under $100). Chris of Fusion was very kind and was willing to help with the shipping and I came close to taking him up on his offer, but the physical size  being too large made the decision for me.

My AW3D HD has been a great experience. It prints pretty flawlessly … much better quality than the MBI 5th Gen. It's faster, much sturdier and can print in 13 materials. I have had no clogging issues or homing errors or anything like those I had with the 5th Gen.

MatterControl takes some getting used to, but I find it gets easier with use. It allows for 3 different slicers (MatterSlice, Slic3r, CuraEngine), each with their own slicing speeds and advantages. 

Calibrating and leveling takes getting used to as well since I was used to the "supposed" assisted leveling of the 5th Gen which of course, never really worked well. AW 3D's leveling process is actually quite easy. The directions are self-explanatory. 

Printing with ABS has been very easy with PET tape on their glass plate along with Elmer's purple glue stick. I'm about to try PLA. I have yet to try any of the more esoteric materials; but soon.

Tech support is great and I've been happy with their attention. I think you'll be happy with your decision.

[Wraven]

I'm interested to understand a few things. Did they charge you a restocking fee? Are they paying for shipping?

[tlocane]

In case you're thinking of returning your MakerBot … they attempted to charge me a 10% restocking fee. I REFUSED! I used the argument that no one charges a restocking fee to return a defective machine, specially a $300 fee!

Since I live in Manhattan and I was shipping to Brooklyn, I didn't mind paying for shipping which was a nominal cost. But if you're far from Brooklyn, refuse to pay for shipping. Had I known I could have physically taken it back to their store in lower Manhattan where I bought it, I might have. They never gave me that option and truthfully, I didn't think to ask. That also cost me almost 2 more weeks in waiting for my refund. Had I had the 5th Gen shipped to me, my refund would have come thru much faster. I had to get AmEx involved because MBI took their blessed time in getting me my $$. 

[Joe Soap]

I'm from the UK. Manhattan and Brooklyn are familiar to me as I have heard of them before. However I have no idea whether they are across the street from one another.

Any chance you could clarify the distance? Miles preferably - whilst the rest of the uncivilised world this side of the pond have gone metric I prefer imperial. Our road signs are in miles, but we buy petrol in litres.

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[tlocane]

I live in Harlem which is uptown (north) Manhattan. I am about 10 miles from the Mulberry Street MakerBot store and about 16 miles from their Brooklyn facility as a car drives. It's actually closer as the crow flies. Brooklyn and Manhattan can be very close (only a few miles) if you're in downtown (south) Manhattan.

So, from my Harlem residence to Brooklyn, if memory serves me, it cost me under $30 to ship my 5th Gen back via UPS. It only took overnight to arrive.

[Jetguy]

Man, this sucks, I was really hoping someone could get a teardown picture of a Z18 mainboard.

Based on the board as I know it, there are pads on the upper side that seem to equate to the possible use of a larger H bridge chip. This would make sense, the might need the power to drive bigger motors.

I'm just curious if anyone with a Z18 has the guts to do this and take those pics?

[Adam P.]

So, who is deleting the negative review posts?

[Nota Pipsqueak]

Hmm...good question.

[Ryan Carlyle]

Deleting posts? It's either Tiffany (our friendly neighborhood moderator) or the original poster. We ARE on a forum owned by Makerbot. And they're remarkably tolerant of negativity -- usually the thing that gets your posts deleted is profanity.

[Dan Newman]

On 30/06/2014, 5:52 AM, Nota Pipsqueak wrote:
> Hmm...good question.

Only the author, moderators, or list owners can delete them. The list owner is Bre while the moderators are
designated employees of MBI.

Dan

[Adam P.]

Yeah, there was no profanity the original post as it was shown quoted.

MBI should really be ashamed if themselves for this 5th gen debacle.

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[Joe Soap]

>MBI should really be ashamed if themselves for this 5th gen debacle.

It might not have been entirely their decision. MBI were recently bought
out, and it may be that their new owners wanted to get the bucks
flowing, saw a new design on the shelf and ignored advice that it wasn't
ready for prime time.

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[Adam P.]

I disagree. I don't think MBI has a single reputable Mechanical Engineer on staff. That's based in the very curious lack I'd engineering I've seen in my R2X. Little details that shouldn't be the way they are.

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[Gregory Sullivan]

they probably have to many engineers and not enough 'test pilots'. I used to get 5 brand new cars on a tractor trailer and 2 or 3 would not move. I would tell them what was wrong and it still took a year to fix. big companies go figure. makes me sick thinking about it. I really suggest internships to enhance a career

[Wraven]

Here is how Error Code 13 is fixed and Jetguy, this might give you insight into what you wanted to see?

There is no way this many people have received Error Code 13 with their Z18's and Makerbot is actually testing these machines after assembly. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLeEOQJhDiY

[Jetguy]

The video was good but if there was a way to get a nice pic of board on the right, that would be helpful. That board looked to be for the heated bed and plugged into an expansion port on the mainboard. I could see the FETS and the large pad areas used for heatsinks.

[Troy Reabe]

I will work on getting you a pic as best I can.

[Troy Reabe]

Here are some pics of inside by the boards

[Scott Ramirez]

No they did not, my Z18 was dead on arrival, i would have laughed.

[Scott Ramirez]

Thanks for this post! I will try this before i send it back just incase this is the problem, i will post an update.

[Scott Ramirez]

I dont have power to delete posts that arent my own.

[Troy Reabe]

I sent told Makerbot support about the repair I did.

I also sent them a link to the video to give them info on what cable was loose.

I have been told by makerbot that doing service to your machine that is not instructed by MakerBot could void your warranty and Maker Care plan.

I was told that my warranty and Maker Care plan would not be affect, and that they will take my solution in for review.

I was asked to pull the video so other people do not try and service there own maker bot.

I have made the video unlisted and added warnings to the video that Maker Bot does not recommend this solution, it could affect your service from maker bot.

But I did think that it is more useful to know that Servicing your own machine when not recommended by Maker Bot could affect your Service Plan.

 

I understand maker bot not wanting people poking around inside there machines but I work off the Warranty Void stickers. If I don't need to break or cut those stickers it is a user serviceable area

My 2 cents.

Thanks

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[Jay]

Why does this NOT surprise me?

The ONLY argument in their favor is it IS a ribbon cable and they COULD come loose in shipping...I guess.

And asking you to pull the video is a little cheesy....they could have asked you to put a disclaimer up instead. Having you pull it smacks more of damage control than warranty worries....

How's the Z18 working now? I lusted after it but couldn't get up enough nerve to wager almost $7k on it....I got a Printrbot Go Large last week instead.

Cheers

Jay

[Scott Ramirez]

Its official guys, I finally gave up last night and bought the Airwolf HDx.

Being a mechanical engineer im really surprised with Makerbot. You would think that with each generation the printers would get better and better, with more and more process and quality control.

I hope their engineers read these forum posts, because serious changes need to happen. If only every one was redirected here before they bought a makerbot so they could get a taste before taking the plunge.

Good luck to everyone that has 5th gen! youre in my thoughts.

-Scott

[Troy Reabe]

it is working well.

I have not done a large single print yet but it is nice that the kids don't fight, I can print my thing and a little toy for each and not need to have them fight over who get the one.

[Paul Sieradzki]

Thanks for the pics!

Any chance you could tell me if the Z18 has the active cooling fan (aka "filament fan" that blows on the newly extruded PLA)? I'm wondering about how having a heated chamber changes things. I own a Replicator 2, so I know how much help the active cooling fan can be, so does having the heated chamber negate the need? Because also, wouldn't having a filament fan in a heated chamber just be blowing the hot air at the filament? 

[Bryon Miller]

It has to have an active cooling fan.  Without it, large parts would not print correctly since the previous layer of plastic that was laid down in most cases is still squishy when the tool head comes around for another pass.  This makes ugly warped looking finishes.  Z18 is specifically for large prints, even MBI wouldn't make a mistake that huge.  Well, I wouldn't put it past them, but that fan is a necessity.

[Ryan Carlyle]

Blowing hot air on the print is fine -- the air just has to be a fair bit cooler than the glass point. In fact, you need more airflow the hotter the chamber gets.

[Troy Reabe]

Yes The Z18 does have the fan blowing on the filament.

The fan sucks air from above the baffles, so outside the build area and blows the cooler air in.

By default the heated chamber is not heated with Makerbots  Z18 PLA settings.

I was looking into playing with the settings to try and see what warming the build chamber could do to help the prints.

I do know that without a raft it is very hard to get the prints to stick to the build plate.

[Paul Sieradzki]

Ah, ok. I suppose that they just got rid of the duct like they have on the Replicator 2.

That's so strange that the default is not heating the chamber. They put some emphasis on that feature.. Let me know how the heated-chamber prints go!

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[Enginwiz]

The Z18 is a PLA only printer with a heated build chamber, but if it is printing PLA the chamber heating is turned OFF ?

[Ryan Carlyle]

Haha, brilliant.

Since PLA performance is so ridiculously marginal on the Smart Extruder with respect to chamber temp, they probably had to disable chamber heating to get halfway decent performance. A future, better Smart Extruder might allow enabling chamber heat with PLA.

[Adam P.]

[Paul Sieradzki]

Could you elaborate more? By 'marginal' do you mean the effect of warping is only marginally reduced with the heated chamber?

Paul Sieradzki
ppsie...@gmail.com
845.825.0204

On Jul 7, 2014 7:15 PM, "Ryan Carlyle" <temp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Haha, brilliant.

Since PLA performance is so ridiculously marginal on the Smart Extruder with respect to chamber temp, they probably had to disable chamber heating to get halfway decent performance. A future, better Smart Extruder might allow enabling chamber heat with PLA.

[Ryan Carlyle]

No. I mean the Smart Extruder barely has enough heat-shedding to keep PLA cool in the thermal barrier region where it needs to be solid to prevent jamming. The Smart Extruder jams because PLA gets too hot in the thermal barrier (due to retractions and other extrusion slowdowns), softens at its glass point, squishes into a plug against the walls, and then solidifies in place. If the extruder thermal barrier had better heat-shedding performance, jams would be dramatically less common. This is Hot End Theory 101 and has been empirically proven by Jetguy for the Smart Extruder in particular.

Minor changes in printing conditions (chamber temp, retraction frequency, etc) are the difference between acceptable performance and hideous jamming. That's very marginal design.

As a rule, PLA is highly unreliable in an extruder with poor thermal design -- it just has too low of a glass point to be well-behaved above the hot end. ABS is much more forgiving of thermal barrier temps because it's solid at much higher temps. But this same property is why ABS warps more than PLA -- the higher the glass point, the more thermal contraction (and thus warping) occurs.

[Paul Sieradzki]

Ahhh, I understand. Totally agreed about proper cooling needed.

Let me know how some test prints (large surface-area) go with the heated chamber!

[Jetguy]

FWIW, we need to be careful on assumptions. I know I have started a lot with my findings on the smart extruder but there are major differences between the series of 5th gens. Most notably, the Z18 has bellows through which the lower end of the extruder pokes into the chamber. As such, the fan cooling the hot end may not intake from the chamber and may be getting fresh cool air. I'd rather not speculate what works  and doesn't work in this case, a lot of variables have changed.

Again, without more details than the few pictures I've seen, let's just expect different results.

[lassi kinnunen]

well, they originally desgned it for large abs parts and designed an extruder for abs, but then forgot that they would need to be blowing hot(but not too hot, 80c) air on the print when printing. then they put the price point of the device at actually doing that. or alternatively they intended it for abs printing or abs-pc printing but figured out that the parts used for the extruder and holding the rails would fail at high enough temperatures for that. I mean, they already moved to a gantry system that would allow them to isolate the motors from the chamber heat.

seriously I was always puzzled about the heated&enclosed build chamber on z18, since for PLA what I ended up doing for better prints on my replicator 1 was taping two 15cm fans on the sides to create a wind tunnel! exactly opposite.

it's like the whole 5th generation replicator series was designed for a filament that doesn't exist all the way from the build chambers up to the extruders. maybe they got something on the way or maybe not. 

-lassi

[Fozzie]

I've had the same thought. It's either that or it was designed for ABS/PLA originally but a mid-course correction made it a PLA only machine. There are just some aspects of the design that don't seem to make any sense the way the final product is marketed (as a PLA only machine).

[Adam P.]

MBI is making a serious mistake by sticking with only PLA.

[Ryan Carlyle]

I also think PLA-only is a crappy strategy. PLA is weaker and less reliable than ABS (ie hot end jamming). I have no desire to buy a PLA-only printer. But there are solid business reasons for the decision. 

I know it's a liability thing -- somebody's going to launch a class action suit against a printer company over ABS fume exposure someday. Nevermind the data from ABS injection molding facilities that says there's no long-term toxicity. Just fighting the lawsuit will be expensive. The safe move is sticking to filaments that smell nice and are considered bio-compatible. 

Another point is that PLA-only printers avoid cannibalizing Stratasys industrial printer sales. ABS is seriously a superior material, but if a $X,000 Makerbot can print ABS really well, why would you buy a $XX,000-$XXX,000 Stratasys?

And then there's user experience. ABS warping is a PITA. It's really, really not a suitable material for newbies and casual "just hit print" users. ABS goes against the design strategy of simple-to-use printers. 

[Tyler Abbey]

Our Z18 isn't without it's quirks but we've gotten away with way more than I had expected coming from the luxury of high end professional machines. 

This pic here is an 18" tall print without support! It's a legitimate statue. 

The magnetic detachment capability of the smart extruder is nice but I'm really hoping for the genius extruder to include a magnetically clasped housing as well since the body wasn't designed for the daily openings it requires. Small price to pay for a small price to pay for model material though. 

Scott, if there's anything you wish you could have printed give me a shout and I'll see if we can print you a helmet that protects you from MakerBot headaches. 

Ryan Carlyle, are you free to come down to 3DPhacktory to give a talk on how things work? I could listen to you explain things all day, so concise! I know everything reads like sarcasm online but this isn't that! 

[Ryan Carlyle]

Tyler, I think Ontario is a little out of the way for me :-)
(Houston here)