My Replicator 2 is printing wispy spiderweb prints. Please Help

[Jeremy Vance]

Okay, so I've had my rep2 since last July.  I have really enjoyed the machine but for the past week or so I haven't been able to get a good long-running print out of it.

This is a design of a lid for a device we are prototyping.  The walls should be solid but they are wispy and fall apart.  The model is printed at 230C, 100micron, 2 shells, 15% infill.  I have Sailfish firmware (installed last August) with Makerware 2.4.4 as my main slicer.  

  

I have had blockages before and have cleared them out pretty easily so I feel confident in the process and I get really good flow with .42-.45mm diameter from my calipers when I load the filament.  Something happens though during long prints that I cannot figure out.  Here is what I have done thus far:

1. Leveled the build platform.
2. Cleared any blockages in the nozzle and thermal barrier (.42mm to .45mm output on load script).
3. Raised temperature to 245C to see if temp sensor was off (normally print at 230C).  No noticable help here.
4. I noticed that the filament wasn't pulling into the drive motor very strong (could stop it with my finger) so I stretched the drive spring out and reassembled the drive arm.
5. I cleaned out any filament bits in the drive gear.

The last thing I have to note is that the thermal insulation tape around the block was ripped off a few months ago by a failed print so I have ordered a replacement but I really don't see why it has taken months for this to effect performance.  I have started a case number with Makerbot (sadly) and they have yet to give me any other fixes other than replace the whole thermal block.  

Have I missed anything or should I just start replacing parts?  Any help on this would be awesome!

[Ryan Carlyle]

When you get bad extrusion, is the stepper clicking or is the filament grinding through the gear?

Does the filament curl to the side during a load, or does it fall straight down?

[Jeremy Vance]

Thanks for the reply!  I did notice that the last print was clicking quite a bit when I checked on it and canceled it.  On load it falls straight down and make nice circles on the build plate.

[Ryan Carlyle]

PLA or ABS? Are you using a filament oiler? 

Have you checked that the screws on the extruder heat sink are tight to give good thermal contact, and the fan is pointing the right way (sticker not visible)? 

Any recent environmental changes, eg the room got hotter or your filament is being stored with more humidity?

Have you tried a fresh, unopened spool of filament? 

[TobyCWood]

As with so many of these kinds of posts the one thing left out was if you measured your filament diameter. If you are getting stepper stutter... the clicking... it indicates that the motor is trying to push the filament through but for some reason it can't and it is skipping it's rotation. The most typical reason for this I have always found is the filament goes out of tolerance... i.e., gets fat... or too skinny if no stepper stutter... it'll just slip and the filament won't move through the extruder. Measure it... and IMO... canola oil on filament in a Rep2 is completely unnecessary. I have not used it since i removed the Craptastic Delrin plunger and as long as the filament is the correct diameter, the nozzle is not clogged and the filament spool is not snagged... it will work fine.
BTW... A rep2? so probably PLA... lower your temp. 230C is too high for PLA. Try 210. Heat creep is still a possibility and going too high over time can eventually deform a stock ABS extruder feeder idler arm. If the filament is the correct diameter you may want to carefully inspect the feeder arm. One good test is to remove the extruder motor(unscrew the bolts but keep them IN PLACE and let the motor back out as the bolts loosen thereby keeping all the parts in place) keep it plugged and set load and run the motor and observe the gear and the bearing... feed it some filament... if it can't grip it well then it can be deformed.

[Jeremy Vance]

I have measured the filament diameter on three spools I have been trying (all PLA):

-Army Green from Makerbot 1.76-1.78mm, no bumps from what I've seen

-Translucent blue from Sainsmart 1.76-1.80mm no bumps or divets (at near end of spool)

-Translucent red from Sainsmart 1.75-1.80mm no bumps or divets (at near end of spool)

-I have not opened it yet, but I just got in glow in the dark green from monoprice.  I'm all about trying different brands/plastics when I don't have work prototypes to print.

I have never heard of a filament oiler before.  I have heard of a filament filter that it passes through before it goes through the puller arm.  http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:52203

I have some ABS black and ninjaflex black to try out sometime but I don't have a heated build plate so I thought curling and other print issues would be there for those.

I am getting the same results from all of them.  Makerbot suggested that I take the spring in the feeder arm and stretch it out because I was getting good flow by putting a slight bit of upward pressure on the feeder arm.  I did that and it did not change the print result but it did start making more of a clicking noise.

I have been running at 230C for the accelerated print speeds but I can try 210 when I get home tonight.  What I did last night was I installed new insulation tape around the hotend/nozzle from fargo3dprinting and I installed an aluminum feeder arm.  Both did not improve the print quality and actually the clicking sound is almost constant.  I'll do the initial load which goes great for a few seconds then it starts clicking.  I tried printing the standard stretchlet last night and it was so wispy/spurty that it broke apart when I pulled it off the build plate.

Can you help me understand what heat creep is?

I also ordered a new thermal barrier tube, thermal insulation protection cover, and 0.4mm nozzles.  I should have those when I get home tonight.

Thanks guys for the help and ideas thus far.  I am learning a lot on how all this works instead of just using it.

-Jeremy

[TobyCWood]

Heat creep is when the hot melt zone starts to move upward for reasons related to insufficient cooling. It can cause the filament to go soft too soon and clog, it can also deform the plastic feeder arm.

So if we all assume your filament path is OK...

Next I'd look at your slicing settings. Too much extrusion and it crowds the nozzle tip and clogs it. The extrusions get shoved back into the tip which is past the melt zone. Clog.

Usually this is when you see the filament going off to the side during load... but not necessarily. You could be clogging during the printing and unclogging easily afterward and not realize you had a clog.

So... in your SW you have to have the filament diameter set to no less... and maybe more... then the actual measured diameter. Larger setting makes for less pushing filament into the nozzle, smaller setting makes for more. What's it set at now?

[Jeremy Vance]

Thanks for the explaination, Toby.  I think I follow you.

So here is what I've done:

Makerbot keeps saying I have an unlevel bed or a clog but I have just proven the bed is level.  I use a 0.152mm feeler gauge to level it and I used their recommended thing to print.  Now, I normally use whpthomas' circle to test my level and that was actually printing great.  This would not print well at all and I was getting an almost constant clicking sound when I used makerware 2.4.0.14 to slice.  I switched back to replicatorG 0040 r22 and didn't hear any clicking sound when I did the print:

  All layers are nice and tight with a glass-like finish.  So, I would say the bed is level.

ReplicatorG isn't the answer though as I tried printing one of my prototypes using the exact same settings in replicatorG and it still failed after about 25 minutes of printing, the layers started getting wispy again.

As for environment, I have the printer in my garage as I always have and the temperature is about 50-55F today.

I don't know what my filament settings are for Makerware but for ReplicatorG, they are set at 1.82mm with 0.4mm nozzle.

[TobyCWood]

So... 1.82 is a bit large and as such the extruder should not be pushing too much through to cause a clog...

But I am not sure I understand your last post... Are you saying that it works ok when you slice the file with RepG?

[Jeremy Vance]

Okay, I tried 1.77 and the first print failed.  However, on closer inspection, I noticed that the filament had knotted at the spool (getting near the end) so I restarted the print and watched it like a hawk.  The print came out flawless!

(top is final print, left is prior print that had a knot, right is print done from makerware)

 So, I'm cautiously optimistic with it.  I printed another part with very fine features that failed but I think that was my fault for the orientation that I printed it.  I'm printing another piece that is a bit bigger and will take about an hour to finish.  Then I have another that I'll start before bed that will take ~3 hours.  That will be the true test.  However, I will have to switch from blue to another spool.  I hope this works.  I'll keep you posted.

On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 6:20:31 PM UTC-5, TobyCWood wrote:

So... 1.82 is a bit large and as such the extruder should not be pushing too much through to cause a clog...

But I am not sure I understand your last post... Are you saying that it works ok when you slice the file with RepG?
On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 12:21:39 PM UTC-8, Jeremy Vance wrote:

[Jeremy Vance]

On another note, Makerbot support says I should dump makerware and download makerbot desktop and up to the latest firmware of theirs.  The only thing I liked about makerware was it's simplicity but more over it's slicing speed.  Would you guys recommend I go to makerbot desktop?  Do I really need to update my firmware?  Or, would I benefit from upgrading Sailfish to the latest since I have 7.5.5 with a newer repG since I have 0040 r22.  Anyone have a suggestion on this?  Beneficial or even worth the trouble?

Thanks!

[Andrew Aurigema]

This is a wild guess so please ignore if wrong ........ Is that MakerGeek "BROWN ABS" filament from about 6 months ago you are printing with ???   If so then it may not be your Bot but the BROWN ABS filament.  I had a few spools of that filament and my parts from the second spool printed the way your parts look.  That BROWN stuff is not ABS.  It acted like nylon but I could not get it to print no matter how hot or cold I set my R2X.  It kept jamming and the filament could not be dissolved by acetone or limonene.  I dont know what it was but I do know it was not friendly.  The MakerGeek guys sent me replacement ( BLACK ABS ) that printed great so no harm done.  Just a thought.  

Have you tried another color of ABS ....... maybe from a different supplier ???  

[Jeremy Vance]

@Eosraptor: No ABS being printed, PLA only.  Replicator 2 not 2X.  No heated build plate.  The green was Makerbot Army Green.

Would really like to hear what everyone thinks about upgrading firmware or not...

Last night was pretty productive.  I was able to get an entire prototype (about 4 different prints) printed with no wispyness.  Two of the long running prints (~1 hr and ~3 hour) did shift once along the Y-axis (shifted to the front) by about 1-2mm.  This has happened to me before about a year ago.  Looks like I need to adjust the pulley for the Y-axis again.  The prototypes were still useful for this revision though so success there.

So, I still get clicking/intermediate extrusion when I load filament and on the initial wipe before the print and some minor clicking when the printer is doing a long straight line at full speed.  So, my guess is that when the extruder has to try to push a lot of filament, something is either blocking the filament or preventing the motor from pushing it in.

I am going to limp along at this setting for today and get my current prototype revision printed out (another 5 or so hours of printing) then what do you all suggest I do?  I have new 0.4mm nozzles from performance 3d and a new barrier tube even, should I take mine off and try to see light through the thermal barrier tube to see if I have any blockage?  That is all I can think of that could be causing this now.  Makerbot suggested that I shouldn't try to replace the thermal barrier tube myself because it might cause more issues due to not being sealed properly or torqued properly.  Any truth to that?  Anyone tried it?

Thanks all.

[3Dsteve]

Jeremy:

Makerware and MBI firmware have seen a number of well documented design issues. Upgrading to Sailfish not only gives you more features and better reliability, but in the rare event you have issues the developers support it very well. In addition to upgrading the firmware to sailfish, it is a no brainer to get Simplify3D. It is fast, it works, it is more flexible than makerware, and they also have good support, documentation, and examples. The Rep2 can become a good printer and all you need to do to get it working is change the build plate, do active leveling instead of the recommended procedure, put in a new extruder, move the filament holder to the top, throw away the filament feed tube, fix the X-axis cable, replace the firmware, print from an SD card not via USB, and get a new slicer. Other than that the stepper motors and the frame seem to work fine.

.

[Jeremy Vance]

So, apparently to get further makerbot support which I've paid for, I will have to (at least temporarily) move to the latest maker desktop and makerbot firmware for the replicator 2.  Has anyone had issue with installing sailfish on a replicator 2 that has had the newer makerbot firmware installed?  I read somewhere that the newer firmware changes the EEPROM quite a bit.  I guess worse case I have an AVR ISP MKII.

So it looks like I have to do the following: 

-Finish my current prints

-Install makerbot desktop and firmware

-See what breaks :(

-Get it fixed

-Install sailfish again

-Profit!

[Dan Newman]

On 13/11/2014, 1:15 PM, Jeremy Vance wrote:
> So, apparently to get further makerbot support which I've paid for, I will
> have to (at least temporarily) move to the latest maker desktop and
> makerbot firmware for the replicator 2. Has anyone had issue with
> installing sailfish on a replicator 2 that has had the newer makerbot
> firmware installed? I read somewhere that the newer firmware changes the
> EEPROM quite a bit. I guess worse case I have an AVR ISP MKII.
>
> So it looks like I have to do the following:
> -Finish my current prints
> -Install makerbot desktop and firmware
> -See what breaks :(
> -Get it fixed
> -Install sailfish again
> -Profit!

0. Your use of 230C for PLA is kind of high. And shows in how shiny
the blue is. On my Rep 2, I print PLA at 200 - 215C. I use 210-215 if
I want it shiny and 200C otherwise. That 230C -- MBI's old recommended
from when they sold Village Plastics PLA -- is maybe, sortof okay for
their PLA of 2012. But it's really too high for most everyone else's
PLA and possibly even for the PLA which MBI sells these days. (When
3DS bought VP, they dropped VP as their manufacturer since 3DS and
MBI's parent SSYS are big competitors.)

00. Your pictures looked a lot to me like severe filament feed
issues. Had I followed the thread, I would have suggested making
sure the filament didn't have too large of a diameter and that
the spool wasn't binding. Turns out, the diameter was a bit
large and the filament was binding (kinked) on the spool.

1. Used to be that MBI supported Sailfish but I suspect that with
their support turnover and whatnot, they no longer do. When they
dropped support of Thing-o-Matics in March 2014, they probably
internally decided to stop supporting Sailfish as well but they
certainly didn't inform anyone of the fact.

2. Before overwriting Sailfish, just go to Utilties > EEPROM (near the
end of the list). Use the submenu to save your entire EEPROM to SD card.
That will write an eeprom_dump.bin file to the SD card. It's 4K long.
You can later restor it with the same EEPROM menu (SD -> EEPROM).
See Section 3.7.18 of

http://www.sailfishfirmware.com/doc/ui-utilities-menu.html

After you've saved to EEPROM, install MBI's 7.6 and do whatever
they do to "reset motherboard completely".

However, this isn't a firmware issue.

Dan

[Jeremy Vance]

Wow, that is a lot of great information, thanks!  

0.) So when I got the machine, it was important to print at 220C under normal speeds.  When I went to sailfish and accelerated speeds, I read that 230C was needed because the extruder was running harder and would cool faster when more and more plastic was extruded.  I typically print at 80-90mm/s feedrate with 120-130 travelrate on repG.  What temperature would you recommend for these speeds?

00.)  So, I fixed the binding spool issue, are you recommending that I install a new 0.4mm nozzle?

1.)  According to MBI support, they do not support sailfish or 3rd party equipment.  They wanted me to take off the aluminum feed arm and reinstall the plastic feed arm to make apples to apples comparison.

2.)  This is awesome information.  Thanks!  If I update to the latest sailfish firmware, should I put the eeprom information back on or has the structure of the new version changed like the MBI firmware.  Guess I need to do some more reading on this.  I agree this isn't a firmware issue because I would have seen it months ago, but I do like having latest and greatest advances if it makes for quicker/nicer prints and less prone to failures.

P.S.  I just used makerbot desktop to slice a previous model and what used to take about a minute to slice with makerware, now took a good 10-15 minutes.  Fail.

By the way, here is a video of the clicking sound.  If I've got to send it to MBI, might as well give you all the same information: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_XI5dq8xyc

I want to point out that this happens a few seconds after the extruder motor has been running on a fresh filament load which sends out 0.42-0.45mm filament until the clicking starts.  If I unload and reload it, the process starts all over again.  This is what I'm trying to fix.

[Dan Newman]

On 13/11/2014, 2:21 PM, Jeremy Vance wrote:
> Wow, that is a lot of great information, thanks!
>
> 0.) So when I got the machine, it was important to print at 220C under
> normal speeds. When I went to sailfish and accelerated speeds, I read that
> 230C was needed because the extruder was running harder and would cool
> faster when more and more plastic was extruded.

Well yes you need to print a bit hotter. But 220C was already too hot (IMO)
for PLA. I usually print at 120 mm/s on my Rep 2 (with the exterior slowed
down to 72 mm/s). And for PLA I run at those speeds I mentioned: 200 - 215C.
YMMV. [BTW, I match the extrusion and travel rates, but that's me.]

> 00.) So, I fixed the binding spool issue, are you recommending that I
> install a new 0.4mm nozzle?

No. Nothing I was suggesting would point at the nozzle. Rather, if the
filament diameter is too large it's going to jam at the pinch gear OR
the inlet to the thermal barrier tube.

> 1.) According to MBI support, they do not support sailfish or 3rd party
> equipment. They wanted me to take off the aluminum feed arm and reinstall
> the plastic feed arm to make apples to apples comparison.

So what value does their support bring to the table if you have a Rep 1,
2, or 2X? I guess replacement parts.

> 2.) This is awesome information. Thanks! If I update to the latest
> sailfish firmware, should I put the eeprom information back on

Yes.

> or has the structure of the new version changed like the MBI firmware.

No, it's not changed. That's intentional. It's called "backwards
compatability".

> P.S. I just used makerbot desktop to slice a previous model and what used
> to take about a minute to slice with makerware, now took a good 10-15
> minutes. Fail.
>
> By the way, here is a video of the clicking sound. If I've got to send it
> to MBI, might as well give you all the same
> information: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_XI5dq8xyc
>
> I want to point out that this happens a few seconds after the extruder
> motor has been running on a fresh filament load which sends out 0.42-0.45mm
> filament until the clicking starts. If I unload and reload it, the process
> starts all over again. This is what I'm trying to fix.

Have you tried with a different spool of filament? I guess so since you
had nearly finished that prior spool, correct?

Dan

[TobyCWood]

Do not do ANYTHING Makerbot suggests. Use ONLY Sailfish. Upgrading to a later version is good, but not essential to solving your problem which I agree with Dan on. Anything from MBI is suspect and will likely be much more problematic for you. Many of us here have spent the $140 for Simplify3D and I do not know of anyone who ever wanted their money back. However, depending on what you make another slicer/SW app I have been using lately and am quite impressed with is the very latest Photoshop. There's a $10 a month package you can get. The results from it are quite impressive... It will only currently support the 2/2X bots or big bots like the MCOR, Objets or printing services like Shapeways.