Liquid Vinyl (Hair Spray) practices

[TobyCWood]

Originally posted by Davide Kessner in MOGG:

If it is pulling the hair spray or the tape off the bed then you absolutely do have an adhesion issue- it is just between the spray/tape and the bed and not between the print and the whatever!

I hate blue tape.  While it works, hair spray is much better.  So I'll ignore the tape for this thread.

There are many ways that you could be doing the hairspray incorrectly, that would result in it not sticking correctly.  Here is a rough list of things to look out for:

1.  Not just any hairspray will work.  I use Garnier Fructis #5.  I used to use Aqua Net, but after doing an A/B Comparison I found that the Fructis #5 works much better.  Other brands/types might not work at all.

2.  Use several THICK coats, and allow it to dry fairly well between coats.  To speed drying up, you can use a small fan in summer or a small space heater in the winter.  It usually takes 10-15 minutes between coats.  Keep the fan speed on low, otherwise the air will blow around the still-liquid spray and make it dry unevenly.  I use 2 to 4 coats, and normally 3, depending on the nature of what I'm printing.

3.  Don't wait too long to use the coated and dried plate.  I'm not sure exactly how long it's good for, but it can easily handle 30 minutes and 24 hours is certainly too long.  I recommend using the plate fairly soon after the spray dries (within an hour), but it might be good for several hours.

4.  When cleaning the plate, first use just warm water.  After most of the spray has come off, spray some Formula 409 cleaner on the glass.  Some other alcohol based cleaner might work as well.  Just using your hand, rub the plate and then rinse it off.  Then dry the plate off with a clean cotton towel.  Don't use a paper towel to dry it, since the paper will leave little bits of stuff behind.  Also, don't use the same towel you keep in the kitchen for drying off plates and hands-- since those can get oils and stuff on them and you don't want oils on your build plate.

5.  My glass plates have been acid-etched and have a frosted appearance.  This helps tape to stick, and I assume that it helps with the spray as well.  I have ordered some new plates that are not yet etched, and I plan on doing some experiments to see if the etching really matters with the spray.  Right now I just don't know.  I do know that others use non-etched plates and it works fine for them.

That all being said, most people tend to get the thickness of the hairspray coats wrong-- and put on way too little spray.  

I would add:

I use Aquanet still, but will try Garnier... however, I typically lay down the 2nd layer while the 1st layer is not fully dried. Maybe 2 hours after. I also like to add a tiny burst in the important spots for challenging prints right before I try the print. The newly sprayed touchup should still be tacky when extruded upon.

BTW... none of this probably applies to Glue Stick which we still need to hear/try more of.

[DavidK]

 Davide Kessler?  Hehe hehe.  :)

-David Kessner

On Friday, October 18, 2013 3:09:55 PM UTC-6, TobyCWood wrote:

Originally posted by Davide Kessler in MOGG:

[delsydsoftware]

Invisible Glass is really good at cleaning the glass plate up. I'll usually scrub the glass with dish soap and hot water to get rid of the surface hairspray, and then go over both sides with Invisible Glass. It also removes any oils on the glass surface. It's easily my favorite spray cleaner, and it does an amazing job on glass. It has a small amount of acetone in it, which probably helps as well.

[Steven Vaccaro]

toby that seems like a lot of work. Why not just use the tape. lay it down and done.

[DavidK]

In my experience, hairspray is just as easy as tape, and produces superior results.  Not only is the surface finish super smooth, but it sticks to the plate better so it has less warping.  

When I used tape, both with the default acrylic plate and also the glass plates, I could get the print to stick to the tape very well but the tape would peel off of the plate with certain prints.  With a lot of prints it was a non-issue, but prints with 100% infill or other warp-prone prints it was impossible to get warp-free prints.  Etching my glass plates improved things, but not enough.  Switching to hair spray completely eliminated these issues for me.

-David K

[TobyCWood]

+1

I'd add... tape has to be put down quite carefully to ensure the seams line up well and there's no creases. You also have to apply it all around to help keep it down. Only some of the tape types work, not all and those types are actually more expensive then Aquanet unscented super extra hold... and... tape will stick to the plastic too well and to work it off is a major pain... and... tape leaves a rough finish while HS/glass or other hard mineral surface will look nice and smooth... and... I can dial in the amount of stick and ALWAYS get the object off the plate by putting it in the freezer...

[TobyCWood]

So I finally have had a bit of time using Garnier Fructis Extreme Hold #5. I prefer the Aquanet. Granier had a good stick, but the release was not nearly as clean for the remaining material as it is for Aquanet. Using Garnier as I removed the object the stuff underneath stretched and peeled upward leaving a mess... it made having to refresh the BP surface happen much more sooner then with Aquanet. Aquanet usually releases clean and leaves only an outline of the object. The stick for Aquanet is not as strong, but additional layers makes it strong enough to do the job without corners coming up. It's a weird balance to get it just right. Someday someone will formulate just the right stuff for each type of filament... but for now, my choice is Aquanet Unscented Extra Super Hold.

[DavidK]

I experience the same thing with GF5, but...  With Aquanet (AN) I always clean and recoat the plate before every print.  The reason for this is that I don't like the impression of the old print on the new print.  What I mean by that is that when you remove the print there is still a "footprint" in the AN, which will be transferred to the next print.  So I clean and respray the plate every time.  

I also don't see the extra time/cost of more hair spray as a problem-- given the time and cost of the actual print.  

Because of this, when I switched to GF5, the way that it peels off of the plate when removing the print isn't a big deal for me.  

With either GF5 or AN, a quick rinse with warm water removed any hairspray on the print.

But the important thing is that both AN and GF5 works.  Choosing between them is personal preference.

-David K

[Wingcommander (whpthomas)]

I am using GF#5 because An is not available down here in Oz.

I started out laying the hairspray on a bit thick - like 3 solid coats. These days one light coat works great for any size PLA print with the HBP at 50c. Light coats also work fine for smaller ABS prints. I can't manage to get ABS prints over 100mm size to stick - they tend to warp once the print height gets above about 10mm, bowing up at the edges. Mind you, I am a bit of a novice printing ABS, so I am still finding my feet.

So these days I am much more thrifty with the GF#5, I only spray where I am printing, or if I am doing a small print and I want multiple copies, I will spray the whole plate and then keep the object open in KISSlicer move it around the build plate and re-save - so I use areas that haven't been printed on yet.

Once the build plate has cooled, putting it in the fridge for 5 min will release even the most stubborn prints, without any effort at all.

At first I though that hairspray was a lot of extra work, but the results with PLA are excellent, and even full size prints release effortlessly in the fridge.

ABS has been a bit of a disappointment for me. In practice, its not as strong as a PLA print, because die swell causes and warping causes delimitation of layers, so the parts are more prone to cracking and splitting. A well designed PLA print can be extremely strong - you just can't leave it in a hot car. Nylon is also really tough, but the rigidity is a probable. Mind you I am designing prototype parts that are taking very high loads - like 250kg - so I am probably right at the limits of these FFF materials.

[TobyCWood]

GF is definitely a different formula from AN. AN works OK with ABS on my hbp in my FF. I too am still not as experienced in ABS as PLA since I also started with a Rep2. But I'm almost done with a second spool... so I am slowly catching up on ABS experience. I can get the edges of rounded objects to stick adequately... not perfectly, but enough to make the print successful using AN on glass at 110C . Square or rectangular objects not so much. Tall stuff? it's very tricky to keep it from delaminating higher up. You really have to maintain a warm interior with no drafts at all. The smell of ABS is not only much more caustic smelling, there's also ALOT more due to the heated BP causing a lot more outgassing.
Seriously... someone has to figure out an ideal liquid vinyl formula for 3D printing.

BTW... Type 1s use paper backed vinyl sheets from scrap booking glued to the BP... but they are also PLA only machines.

[TobyCWood]

This was from the FF GG from Jetguy regarding attaching a glass BP to a heated build surface. GREAT idea. I am trying it right now.:

 

"I use normal window glass. Just take the measurements of the plate and have them cut 2 or 3 from the scrap glass bin. My local Lowes cut mine for $2 from the bin. I got 5 sheets!!!

 

Also, I've posted this in other forums but I stopped using clips and use a sheet of thermally conductive super thin silicone between the glass and the bed. This works amazingly well.

http://www.amazon.com/Gino-400mm-Silicone-Thermal-Heatsink/dp/B007PPEW52/ref=lh_ni_t?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1THAZDOWP300U 

 

Simply cut to the size of the glass, stick it to the glass, and then set the glass on bed. Once you work the air out, it's stuck solid."

On Friday, October 18, 2013 2:09:55 PM UTC-7, TobyCWood wrote:

[TobyCWood]

After weeks of use it was time to remove the plate and refresh the HS... the thermal pad did not like that at all. Removal of the plate ruined the pad.

[Darrell jan]

I had the same problem. Bradley (Bottleworks) suggested laying down thin layers of clear RTV by using kapton tape as guides, and smoothing with a razor blade. Been too busy with holiday chores to try this yet, but it sounds like it should work.

[James Holmes-Siedle]

Wingcommander

Have you tried PLA glue on glass for PLA?

I am not a Mbot user but an ultimaker user and I dilute PVA glue with water (50% - really watery) - paint on the glass and let it dry and it holds PLA effortlessly - NO warping, and re-use many times before i have to wash it and re-apply.

If a print sticks too hard then a quick wash in warm water and it pops off.

Leaves a lovely flat sheen on the part.

Not my invention, but growing steadily in the UM community & cheaper than hairspray!

No use to PLA I understand, but have seen some experiments with Nylon  on cold glass.

James

[TobyCWood]

Do you mean PVA glue?  Isn't that white glue for porous use as with wood? Elmers?

How do you apply? Have you ever tried a spray? Since it is mostly water, doesn't it take quite a while to dry?
I have found that the best stick for nylon is simply to print on nylon. I use HS so I can get the nylon OFF the nylon! Anything less and nylon comes up no matter what.

[James Holmes-Siedle]

Yes - wood glue!

dilute wood glue!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yx5kp7M7CE&feature=c4-overview&list=UUPa_eZAbsxUcddZ-Gr_i2zQ about 1:30 in describes the process.

Not sure if Peter invented it or not, but I have been using the method about 2 months and it is a match made in heaven for PLA - does not work for Colorfabb XT where I still use tape.

Peter shows the use with Nylon - something I am going to try next month when I have worked my way through all the other things on my list to try.

I do not have a heated bed, I just went to our local glass supply and had some 3mm sheets cut which I clip onto my non-heated bed.

Drying takes about 20 mins, or can be hurried on with a hot air gun/oven.

Each plate seems to last about 20/30 prints before a re-coat (so I have 2).

Plates were UKP £2.00 to have cut, and the glue is almost nothing!

The PLA first layer seems to work best at about 230 degrees - but this is a UM in a non heated room with a cold plate and Colorfabb PLA.

Plates wash easily back to 0 ready for a re-coat.

I have not trammed my machine for 2 months - even when I take it home!

Yet another thing to try!

James 

[TobyCWood]

Yah... I gotta try... I wonder... what if you dilute it with alcohol? Then it would dry real quick. How about touchup? Does it come up with the PLA?

On nylon...  my bet is no way will it stick.  Only way I can get nylon to stay down... 1. Use a nylon bp with a thin coat of HS to get it off 2. Design the object with minimal linear tool paths 3. Use Kisslicers round infill and stagger the use of infill up the object(only KS can do that too), 4. no more then 2 layer roofs and floors.

Nylon and XT do not use the hbp and need higher temps. Nylon and XT do not use the downward fan(at least not for me). Nylon shrinks like an untreated cotton Tshirt in steam while XT has no visible shrink at all. Nylon is indestructible while XT seems to be pretty close to that as well. Nylon... only in a few specialized objects... XT? as easy as PLA.

[TobyCWood]

I watched the video... I really liked the guy!  Nice UM! I would not say no to an UM. I will try PVA, but I'd prep the plate in a sink, not in the printer. Also, given it takes a long time to dry multiple plates is kinda a necessity. Note the size of the object he printed in nylon. I typically test using the calibration cube in RepG and in MW. It's when you get bigger is where it will pull up no matter what you do. Nylon can pull up in spots even though the rest of the object is stuck solid.

[TobyCWood]

Well... Elmers does not work at all. The stuff goes on thin and does not stick to the glass. At all.

Chances are like with HS not all wood glues are alike when it comes to the liquid vinyl formulation.

I'll try Tite-bond next.

[Wayne Huthmaker]

I've been selling flexible printer plates for the Rep 2 (and the assorted clones) for about 6 months now from my site PRINTinZ.com and we are just now beginning to get re-orders from some of our very first customers from February (it's now August). This says a couple of things: The plates lasted a long time for them and they were worth the money. So if you're tired of messing with glue, hairspray, washing your plate, applying tape, etc. then you might want to give one of these plates a try.

Wayne

[TobyCWood]

Lexan?

[Ryan Carlyle]

The PrintInZ plates are something laminated, not just Lexan. I know this because some people reported delamination when attempting to heat the early PrintInZ plates (back when they were Ninja Plates).

[Matt Howlett]

Just my two cents…

We sell polyimide tape (3dxtech.com) and swear by it for plastics that need a heated bed, but not much beats AquaNet on glass for PLA - sticks awesome.  Couple thick coats on 60c glass - no worries.  

[Wayne Huthmaker]

Ryan,

You're right. Some of the very first plates we made delaminated when heated AND people printed large ABS prints on them. It's not that they just got hot and came apart. That was more than 6 months ago (Spring 2014), however, and the plates have evolved since then, like most products do. We have not had any issues like that since. 

We are now offering a construction that includes a metallic layer for use with inductive proximity sensors for auto-leveling. Give PRINTinZ another look.

Thanks,

Wayne

[Enginwiz]

Most Hairspray cans contain flamable propane gas.
Never spray it on a hot surface. It can turn into a flame thrower.

Use hairspray only in well ventilated areas.
Propane gas can build up an explosive gas environment
in a closed room.