Rep 2x Clogging

[pan...@themetroschool.org]

Hello all,

I recently acquired a makerbot 2x that I am attempting to fix. It is mostly printed abs and is about four years old. The ceramic insulation around the heater blocks is mostly broken off, though all other parts of the printer are in good order. While trying to print a test print in pla, the extruder motor would make clicking noises, as if the nozzle was clogged. After removing the nozzle and soaking it in acetone as well as burning it out with a heat gun, I was able to see clearly though it. After reinstalling it and running the test print once again, the clicking continued. I then removed the extruder and the stepper motor and manually pushed filament though. I could do it with ease, but letting it sit in the hot end (as if the hotend was heating up) for about a minute, I found it nearly impossible to push filament through. If I pulled it out and clipped the end of the filament and retried, it worked fine. So in order to get a print extruding the whole time, I have to load the filament while it was starting, and keep pulling it out and reloading it every 30 seconds. I even replaced the nozzle to no avail as well as completely turning retraction off. 

At this point I'm not sure what to do beside replace the whole extruder assembly, which is most definitely not appealing with a $300 price tag. 

Any suggestions on what to test/suggestions of what to do are greatly welcome.

Thanks, 

Drew

[Matthew Brame]

https://www.fargo3dprinting.com/products/makerbot-replicator-2x-silicone-heater-block-kit/

Should get you back up for $50

[Jetguy]

These printers (Replicator 2X) in stock form were known, beyond known to have issues attempting to print in PLA.

What you have to understand is that although the 2X might look like the other Makerbot printers and extruders that did work and were designed around PLA printing (original replicator and the replicator 2), there are major changes in the hotend and feeding gripping section of the 2X extruder that are simply not ideal for PLA.

Put another way, if you want to print PLA, you need to start studying the hundreds of posts of why a 2X isn't good for PLA, why and what upgrades help change this.

While the link for a new ceramic insulator below is good, that alone won't do a thing for you printing PLA and solving this problem.

Since some of the upgrades have gone out of production (example would be Carl Raffle's specific 2X cooling bar to change to be more like a Replicator2 and original Replicator MK8 extruder), there are newer alternatives like the Bondtech that has the custom cooling bar and other details along with far better filament grip than stock. Again an upgrade made specifically for this printer http://shop.bondtech.se/en/upgrade-kits/makerbot-clones/extruder-upgrade-makerbot-rep2x.html

I would not waste time and money with the stock extruder trying to print PLA on this printer. Upgrade if you want to print PLA.

[Jetguy]

Follow on topics to read https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/makerbot-users/2x$20PLA%7Csort:date/makerbot-users/37vaQ7bD_5g/J9ECYQaZBAAJ

I'm personally not a fan of PEEK insulator systems for a hotend, but here is an upgrade path one user raved about https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/makerbot-users/2x$20PLA%7Csort:date/makerbot-users/3RG_TsXc6Fc/F9y6XhCuAwAJ

Here was a topic of a school administrator, in the same boat trying to get a couple of Replicator 2X printers to reliably print PLA.

Keep in mind the context of a point in time. At the time of this message, there were not as many upgrades, the Bondtech upgrade kit did not exist, Carl Raffle had designed some parts that worked, but it required you the user to build a custom extruder from mixed components. You were literally building your own custom extruder at that time.

Hence why the comments were so harsh, I knew I was dealing a with a user without the skills or money to custom build their own extruders.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/makerbot-users/2x$20PLA%7Csort:date/makerbot-users/oOmrMLFCTDg/9f_Hs7cUCAAJ

Again, keep in mind the context of what was being said at the time this question was asked:

I'm just trying to convey what I think the user was asking.

I read, "I want to perform a simple mod and have largely trouble free reliable printing of PLA on the existing Replicator 2X for the school by people probably not greatly experienced in 3D printing, let alone modifying the printer. Is there a bolt on product on the market that is cheap and reasonable to achieve the goal?"

Answer, is no, sorry, not really. You simply will not see the same performance you get a Replicator 2 using the same PLA. You are likely to experience occasional jamming if not frequent jamming. There are modifications out there, but not exactly bolt in in the sense you might be expecting.
There are workarounds such as oiling, but again, that's messy, stray oil on the build plate means prints don't stick, it's one more thing to keep after, and in no way guarantees success for PLA on a 2X on a regular day in, day out situation in the hands of the average user.

To drive home the point, I personally know 2X owners dumping the machines and using Replicator Duals instead of the 2X due to massive issues with the 2X.
Makerbot has made even maintaining the 2X and expensive nightmare because to even order the most basic part, they want you paying for support.
It's just flat out beyond ridiculous and as a school, you need to make a bigger stink about this fact.

That's why I have such a hard time with this question.
Can we help you print PLA? yes, it's entirely possible to modify a Replicator 2X to act more like a Replicator Dual from a thermal perspective. However, installing that mod is anything but easy. It's not even a kit, it's this part + this part+ a whole lot of hand building and adjusting = a major modification.
Then there are known issues, with everything from the X carriage clamp to the idler bearings wearing out on the X axis end of the 2X. Then don't even get started on the wiring failures.
Support is a nightmare and while a few companies are providing some 3rd party parts, it's not exactly comprehensive or easy.

And the kicker is, a Replicator 2X is an expensive machine!!! For all the money up front, the value of this machine over a 2 year period compared to cost, repairs, headaches, and so forth, are just insane compared to other market offerings.
So for all the effort here- are we just kicking the problem can down the road 15 paces and going to have it bite us a few weeks or months into the future??

[Jetguy]

Also, I would being you a disservice if I did not mention some serious OTHER concerns with a 4 year old Makerbot Replicator 2X with unknown maintenance.

There are several know wear and tear items.

#1 The X axis left side belt pulley and shaft being lubed and/or replaced or upgraded on a regular basis. Failure of this glass filled plastic pulley can and will wear out the X axis plastic injection molded bracket making the printer all but useless until it is replaced. Again, a 4 year old machine with unknown wear and tear, this might already be damaged and be a major repair.

#2 X axis cabling failures. The cable flex and move every time the gantry moves. This will wear out and break the cables. Depending on again, the repairs and maintenance of this machine, either that cable has been replaced or has not, the new cable systems split the section that flexes into a separate wiring harness that is shorter to replace the failed section that wears out rather than the entire cable to the mainboard.

#3 Cabling to the extruder head- subject to the same wear and tear.

#4 Since you also have missing thermal insulation on the heater blocks, that means the X axis carriage belt clamping area can be heat damaged and allow backlash. This is another known issue with the 2X.

[Jetguy]

Again, you said this:

At this point I'm not sure what to do beside replace the whole extruder assembly, which is most definitely not appealing with a $300 price tag.

Do not just replace it with yet another OEM Makerbot supplied extruder or hotend assembly. That's just throwing money away at the same parts you have now, You already tried replacing the nozzle and that did nothing because again, the very design of this hotend system (cooling bar, thermal barrier, heater block, and nozzle) does not work and does exactly what you said- jams with PLA in a short time. 

And now you see why I said what I said back them. When buying this printer (A Replicator 2X), especially a used one, and your intent is to print PLA, you must know the ins and outs of this printer, you must know about the fact from the factory it never printed PLA well or at all. Worse, you must stay on top of maintenance and wear and tear areas, and so when looking at this printer as a PLA printer, you have to weigh in does this machine make sense financially and effort wise?

If you get the printer cheap or that's what you have and what you intend to stick with because you love it- great- then spend the money on the upgrades and it improves the printer for ALL materials you might want to print and gives you a better printer. But that costs time, effort, and money.

There are other printers on the market today with larger build area in the $300 to $500 range for a complete printer.

Keep that in mind before blowing a bunch of money on a Replicator 2X to bring it up to spec.

There is no "quick fix" here. It's not cheap or easy to correct the mistakes that are causing your Replicator 2X hotend to jam.

On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 10:12:32 PM UTC-4, pan...@themetroschool.org wrote:

[Malek Kabariti]

Dear all,

After I upgraded MY R2x on Jun 05 2016, by using the MM2X Extruder Kit, a Makerbot Replicator 2X Extruder upgrade.

I have been enjoying printing PLA with a fantastic result.

I have 2 new sets of original MakerBot R 2X Extruders, I just did not use at all, because of my problem with it.

Regards

Malek

On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 4:37 PM Jetguy <vernon...@gmail.com> wrote:

Also, I would being you a disservice if I did not mention some serious OTHER concerns with a 4 year old Makerbot Replicator 2X with unknown maintenance.

There are several know wear and tear items.

#1 The X axis left side belt pulley and shaft being lubed and/or replaced or upgraded on a regular basis. Failure of this glass filled plastic pulley can and will wear out the A axis plastic injection molded bracket making the printer all but useless until it is replaced. Again, a 4 year old machine with unknown wear and tear, this might already be damaged and be a major repair.

#2 Cabling failures. The cable flex and move every time the gantry moves. This will wear out and break the cables. Depending on again, the repairs and maintenance of this machine, either that cable has been replaced or has not, the new cable systems split the section that flexes into a separate wiring harness that is shorter to replace the failed section that wears out rather than the entire cable to the mainboard.

#3 cabling to the extruder head- subject to the same wear and tear.

--

Malek Kabariti

Former Minister of Energy and Mineral Resources (MEMR).

The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.

Former Chairman of the National Electric Power Co (NEPCO).

The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.

Former President of the National Energy Research Center (NERC).

The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.

Former Director of the Renewable Energy Research Center (RERC) - The Royal Scientific Society (RSS).
The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.

Mob. +962 79 90 500 80

Fax: +962 6 592 8700

USA #: +1 214 281 8864

P.O.Box 5211
Amman 11183 JORDAN

malek.k...@gmail.com

 

Renewable Energy is the Future of our Kids  

[TobyCWood]

Just to beat Jetguy to the punch... Please note that the MM2X kit is obviously not an all metal solution. The barrel is Peek (a very dense machinable plastic) and there is a PTFE liner. As such it should be quite fine for PLA, probably be fine with ABS (though you can expect to need to replace the PTFE liner regularly) and for light [printing with PETG (i.e., short periods of time)...  Otherwise Nylon, long prints in PETG will wear it out pretty quickly.

[pan...@themetroschool.org]

Thanks for all of the replies. 

So if I were to print with abs, would that solve the problem? And if so why would abs work over pla? I realize that the 2x was made for printing abs, but what prevents it from printing pla? 

I know that there are many printers in the $300-$500 price range such as the cr-10, but I did not buy the 2x, I am only trying to fix it for my robotics team. 

Also, the faultiness of the extruders does not explain how I can not push filament through the hot end. In this case the extruder is not the problem, it is either the nozzle or the heater block. 

On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 10:12:32 PM UTC-4, pan...@themetroschool.org wrote:

[jmpr...@gmail.com]

Others can explain this better than I but I will give a quick explanation based on what I understand. PLA and ABS are very different, the big difference being that PLA glass transition temperature is much lower than ABS so it gets soft at much lower temperatures. Once it gets soft you are pushing on a wet noodle and extrusion stops. The 2x does a poor jobs keeping the filament cool where it needs to be hence the PLA fails where ABS is much more tolerant of this. Unfortunately ABS is a pain to work with on anything of a decent size. I would second the opinion that you would be better off getting a new inexpensive printer than trying to get this to work.

[Jetguy]

"the extruder is not the problem, it is either the nozzle or the heater block."

The extruder is a system of components working together of a feeder, a guide section, a cold end, a heat break to connect the hotend mechanically to the cold end, the heater block to connect the heater itself and the temp sensor all in conjunction to the nozzle and cold end.

Again, an extruder is a system.

Your 2X system does not work well with PLA.

There are faults in every part of it.

The feeder system is known to slip and grind filament and has spring tension failures and other issues with wear and tear

The guide system is not ideal for flexible filaments

The cold end has thermal transfer issues from the heat break

The heat break has issues with how much heat it is conducting up (design failure) and poor thermal contact to the cooling bar to get rid of the heat it does conduct.

The only things that do work are:

heaterblock, heater, thermocuople temp sensor, and the nozzle.

The very part you don't understand why PLA is jamming- it's jamming in the heatbreak cold section before it can ever fully melt and flow through the nozzle.

On Sunday, July 29, 2018 at 7:53:44 PM UTC-4, pan...@themetroschool.org wrote:

[TobyCWood]

Easy solution... Only use ABS.

[Gian Pablo]

...

Since some of the upgrades have gone out of production (example would be Carl Raffle's specific 2X cooling bar to change to be more like a Replicator2 and original Replicator MK8 extruder), there are newer alternatives like the Bondtech that has the custom cooling bar and other details along with far better filament grip than stock. Again an upgrade made specifically for this printer http://shop.bondtech.se/en/upgrade-kits/makerbot-clones/extruder-upgrade-makerbot-rep2x.html

Carl's Tecto cooling block went a long way towards fixing this issue (printing PLA and other materials like nGen). The Bondtech cooling block unfortunately has not worked for me at all, it jams solid with ABS and other materials. The filament drive itself looks fantastic, but the cool block has similar issues to stock.

 

I would not waste time and money with the stock extruder trying to print PLA on this printer. Upgrade if you want to print PLA.

...

[chrono144]

Gian, I've been considering for a while to get the bondtech setup, has the bondtech guys been helpful to you in terms of support?

Would you recommend that setup for the 2x? or just trying to source a carl raffle cooling block setup?

I currently print primarily abs (needed for work) would like to do nylon for strength, and PLA would be nice for little models, but not a necessity for me.

[TobyCWood]

Tell me... Is the BT cooling block hollow like the OEM? If it is then yeah I'd say it will still have the same issues. IIRC, once I looked at the install instructions and it is hollow. Not good.  I wonder if it is possible to make a Rep2 version reversed and use that on the 2X? Now that would work nice! The Rep2 version is a solid block of Aluminum.

[chrono144]

The block is hollow, but in a different way.
The OEM block has a very poor path to the heat sinks, and a poor path to the majority of the cooling block.

The Bondtech has a better one, but doesn't have the surface area of the threaded connection.

I believe the Bondtech guys are working on such a solution as you describe though!

[Gian Pablo]

Indeed. Martin has made me a block that is the same size and shape as Carl’s Tecto 2x cold block.

As soon as I get it I will try it out and let you know.

[chrono144]

Looking forward to your assessment!