My 5th gen makerbot is printing very bady (pics attached) Help/Tips?

[Nicholas Lovell]

So, I have had it since October.  It was printing fine, then, around the time I updated the firmware to 1.7 and the makerbot desktop to 3.6, it starting printing badly.  I can't confirm that doing either of these updates was what caused it, but it seems likely since it was around the same time. 

As you can see in the pics, the parts are printed sloppily and they are very fragile.  I tore one piece apart with very little force, it nearly crumbled in my fingers just pinching it.  I did some research and I did the following:

1.) Reset the makerbot to factory settings(does this make the firmware go back to what it was?  If not, is there a way to put older firmware on it?

2.) Clearned and WD-40'd the part that the roll of filament sits on so there would be less friction.  I thought it might be struggling to pull the filament. 

3.) Opened the smart-extruder and looked everywhere but no sign of a clog.

4.) Pre-heated and manually pushed filament through to try and "de-clog" it. 

5.) I found a copy of Makerbot Desktop 3.4 to make the new parts.

Any help is greatly appreciated.  I have a project coming up that I need some good prints for!  Thanks!!!

-Nick

[Jetguy]

Good luck, it's a 5th gen.

I'm dumping mine soon. I'm just done with this. It's a bad design and there is no improvement. Anyone who says or thinks otherwise is just too optimistic and reality needs to kick in.

[Eelco Wagenaar]

Hi Nick

Having the same difficulties with mine (Repl. 5 Gen).. Have it for almost one year now and already at my 3rd smart extruder and not even printing that much. Also encountered problems after the firmware update prior to 1.7.
I suspect there something happened with the temperature settings of the extruder, because when I went trouble shooting I found out my temperature was set to 280 degrees Celsius.. something I didn't do myself and since I am th eonly one operating.. after the update to 1.7 (which came rather quickly after the firmware update before) it wasn't possible to set the temperature without making a custom profile..
I have heard from other users they had the same problems, overheating their PLA filament after an update.. and also not being able do have reasonable prints like we where used too..

Don't know if this helps..
For the rest I checked everything, leveled buildplate, reset firmware to 1.4 and back to 1.7 again. Cleaned nozle and smart extruder from the inside. Changed to new out of the plastic filament. Played with the Z-axes offset.. Can't get a descent print anymore. And contacted the local makerbot (official) reseller.. haven't got an answer yet.. but as I wrote before.. 3rd smart extruder and had to send in my makerbot already for 2 times... not so happy as u can imagine..

best,
Eelco

 

[3D printing Co Ltd]

Hi Nicholas,

The biggest problem with the Gen 5 Extruder exhibiting these problems that you have displayed is normally within the extruders Z axis up & down calibration sensor magnet.

This magnet can become slightly loos causing a multitude of problems.

Suggestions>>>>

1/            Securer the magnet wit HT super glue.

2/            lube the slide shaft retaining the magnet.

3/            re-start machine.

4/            re-calibrate build platform.

If this doesn’t fix the problem, refer back to an earlier version of firmware and/or desktop application.

Hope this is of some help and the best of luck.

Cheers,

John.

[Jake Clark]

Nick,

I'd look at Simplify 3D. Whenever we sell a MakerBot we sell Simplify 3D cause it just works with the 5th Gen line. We just printed some pieces for a client the other day that turned out really good!

Feel free to get in touch with us and John can give you the run down of the software. Same goes for you Jetguy.

Jake

[scott spencer]

HEY!! JetGuy I fixed my Makerbot 5th Gen here is how

On Thursday, August 14, 2014 at 3:08:17 PM UTC-4, Michael Carmenaty wrote:
Hi Guys!!!


Well after having the MakerBot for about 2 months its been nothing but headaches.
First week I had the printer was working perfectly. Then it all went down hill from that point on.
I think there sample prints are small and not complex so I'm guessing that's why the prints came out prefect. 


Anyways Problems from the beginning


- MakerBot Desk Top was not working correctly, I could not get any part to export the file so I can save it to a USB and print that way.
- MakerBot Service is Horrible. I did get some help but it would take them a week to 2 weeks to get back to me.
- When I tried printing large parts that would almost cover the entire build plate. The corners would peel up making the part not flat/straight


After I had fixed all the issues above. I said: finally I should be ok now to print usable parts here at work. NOPE!!!!
The biggest problem now I have is the feeding of the filament.
I don't know if the new firmware for the printer has messed up something in the programming of the smart extruder.


First I was getting a small jam were the extruder started knocking and no Filament was coming out. So I just did the unload process and reloaded the filament.
Filament was coming out of the nozzle. So I continued my print and monitor it for the first couple of minutes. It was printing ok, left it alone came back the next 
morning print was half way done. DAAAM!!!


I was searching on the web and found that most people have replace there smart extruder for a new on from MB. But what surprised me was that they had replaced it 3 time?!?!
I said the hell with that so I opened the extruder found lots for grinned down filament inside. So I just went head and cleaned it up. Its very simple to open just need to be gentle not to brake the tabs There was a filaments inside that was not letting the new filament feed through. So i just just cut it. Put everything back together. 


Ok so loaded the new filament. Success came out the nozzle. So i did a quick print to see if everything was ok. It was printing fine. BUT....
5 minutes into the print the knocking came back AGAIN! it was not feeding Correctly
So I did this about 6 times open, clean, print, fail. I said what is going on contact MB. Still waiting on there reply


So did more research. Found out some one suggested Olive oil or baby oil on the Filament.
It makes sense to lubricate the filament that way when it enter the heating element and nozzle the PLA will not stick to the walls.


I figure Ill try this one more time if this dose not work. I'm sending it back. SOB!!! its worked.
But I think this is a temporary solution maybe if MB does another Firmware. This issue might be fixed just on firmware alone. 


OK so this is how I started my discovery and ended up with something everyone with a Makerbot 5th Gen can use if they are running into this problem


So I got Air tool oil this is what i had at the moment just so i can try it out to see if it works.
I put a small amount of oil on a paper towel. I exposed the filament from the guide tube and wrapped it around filament.
Then I got a paperclip just to hold the paper towel around the filament.
So as the filament is being fed through the Smart Extruder its also getting a thin coat of oil.


















































Ran a test print which was the Bracelet sample. SUCCESS!!!
No skipping, No knocking, No Ghost or air print.


So I went ahead and designed the oil reservoir




































































The Idea here is this will sit on top of the extruder were the filament is fed through.
I printed these out. Using the MakerBot when i had the paper towel :)




























Here Is a quick test fit. Perfect!! 












































So no just need to add cotton inside the reservoir & then add a couple of drops off baby oil
No need to fill the entire reservoir of oil. you don't want it to leak through the bottom and into the extruder.
The cotton will add like a wick keeping the oil inside 




































































Here is the Final look :)










































































































So now if you hear the knocking start to come back. just add a couple of drops into these slots.
No need to take the cap off. I used this bottle and filled it up with baby oil
























































Well hope this will help anyone out there that having this issue. I figure I make this topic. The MakerBot groups have helped me a lot. Some of the tips and trick I used to get my makerbot going were form these These groups 
Sucks MBI support sucks. If they would make there support stronger. They could be one of the best companies out there. 
I will put the files on for this oil reservoir I made on http://www.thingiverse.com
I anyone want the STL files let me know i will be glad to give them to you.


Here is more information on how PLA works.
http://www.matterhackers.com/articles/how-to-succeed-when-printing-in-pla

[TobyCWood]

Seems like you went through a HECK of a lot of trouble for a fix which IMO will only cause more problems down the road. You will see. IMO your time would have been better spent packing the POS up, sending it back and then use your refund to buy a 3DP which actually works reliably without your having to jump through absurd hoops like designing your own oiler!

[Brandon Pomeroy]

 which IMO will only cause more problems down the road.

Why do you say this? Filament oilers have been used for years on printers... It doesn't seem like an "absurd hoop" to extend that to the 5th gen.

[Jetguy]

It's OK, we all fell in love with 3D printing. You get that first machine and you think ANYTHING you print is great.

Then you do this for 5 or 6 years, and you see other guys posting amazing prints from machines that cost 1/3 of what yours cost, they don't have to buy multiple extruders or pay to get the latest version so it works as advertised. They don't have layer alignment problems and they can stand to have the printer in the same room beside them.

 

So, you can absolutely live with the 5th gen and keep living in denial that this makes it ok.

Look, If I honestly thought it was possible to make the machine 1/4 as good as a Replicator 2, I would be selling upgrade kits.

But I know better, it's junk, it's junk now and all it's ever going to be is junk. It's a bad design, bad electronics, bad firmware, and bad hardware.

If it was any single one thing- ok, that's semi fixable for a cost. This is just insanity to waste time trying to get it to do what it was advertised and supposed to do from day one.

[John Steward]

We do not recommend oiling as the integrity of the part is compromised if full strength is required.

However if one is to use an oil it should be one with a very high smoke point. The best compatible oil

to us is one from plant extract of course and not from a petroleum derivative.

If you are going to use any oil, use Avocado oil. It has the highest smoke point to that of other organic type oils.

 

Cheers,

John.

3D Printing Co.

[Ryan Carlyle]

John, I'm not aware of any evidence for what you're saying. The oil is less dense and much less viscous than the molten plastic, so it pretty much just "floats" on top of the transition zone. Tons of people use oils with lower smoke points than their nozzle temp with no issues whatsoever. The quantity "consumed" out the nozzle is negligible unless you seriously over-do it and retraction/repriming accidentally ingests a pocket of oil.

[John Steward]

From your statement it is apparent that you do not understand differences between basic polymer molecular structures.

Eg:- you can’t mix polyesters like P489 Orthophthalic / Isophthalic polymers with say of epoxy poylmers.

Same with DOT 4 and DOT 6 brake fluid and the list goes on.

The same with organic to that of petroleum based derivatives. In some cases the molecular acid chain needs to me modified for a coherent stable structure but we are only talking about PLA at present.

A chemical reaction on a microscopic standard occurs when petroleum verses organic based oils are asked to dance with each other and especially when heated at 200 degrees C.

This is inherently not only creates a chemical exchange but also makes Hydrocarbons that deposit within the heated nozzle baking themselves to the inner heated tip.  This is what will eventually cause jamming.

I say again that if one is to use oil? Use Avocado oil. Far less chance of carbon build-up and is chemically compatible with PLA......

Note:- I am yet to know anyone that as you have quoted, (""Tons of people use oils with lower smoke points than their nozzle temp with no issues whatsoever."") never having a nozzle jam. no issues whatsoever? mmm?. big statement.

Most jams are created from a poor quality filament, not been stored in a dry dehumidified environment, allowing dust particles to be statically attracted to an exposed uncovered roll on and off the machine, bad quality tips and/or poor setup of the machine and G.codes. Lets not also forget a  model design itself.

This is why we operate a successful printing / repair company. There is no substitute for that of experience and wish you the best of luck for your future prints.

Cheers.

[Ryan Carlyle]

John,

I'm a chemical engineer with extensive experience in polymers, lubricants, heat transfer, chemical degradation modes, etc. I'm not sure exactly what you're intending to say about the oil mixing with the polymer, but the way you've phrased it is essentially gibberish. I think your practical experience with printers is likely very valid, but perhaps your explanations could use some work.

Molten PLA and aliphatic hydrocarbons (petroleum lubricant oils) are immiscible. They don't mix or co-dissolve to any meaningful extent. And any mid-weight petroleum distillate is vastly more thermally-stable than any plant-based triglyceride like avocado oil. So your description of carbon deposits really doesn't make chemical sense -- the vegetable oil is much more likely to form them.

Now, ABS can absorb some aromatic hydrocarbons due to the styrene units containing phenol groups, so you wouldn't want to use WD-40 or gasoline... But a light-weight lubricant like 3-in-1 oil is primarily aliphatic, not aromatic, and thus is perfectly fine.

[TobyCWood]

If John and Ryan want to continue a Chem.Eng. debate... please do not stop. I would like to read more... We don't get enough of those.

but...

I have seen it myself and have heard from others... Ya do get some weird crud build up in the nozzle from oiling. Doesn't matter what kind of oil.  The more you use the worse it gets. That's why I have not used oil on my filament since the 2 weeks I did use it back in 2012 when i just got my then totally incompetent Rep2 with it's joke of an extruder design. 

IMO oiling should not be necessary at all and if you have to add oil to get reliability then you are not really solving a systemic problem in the extruder. It's a bandaid but not a cure. If I have extrusion reliability problems I do a tear down and root cause analysis. If the design stinks I replace the components as i did with my Rep2 back in 2012 and as I had to do with my FFC in 2013.

Reading the post above about this guys Gen5 "fix" the oil is helping the filament movement along a poorly designed path and possibly also helping with the control of the melt zone... doesn't matter, if one has to operate this relatively expensive machine this way then the problem is not solved. Thanks to boneheaded decision making at MBI the components cannot be replaced or fixed. Best solution is to ship the thing back, get a refund and buy a well designed machine... ASAP!

[Ryan Carlyle]

I completely agree that oiling is a band-aid. When you have a really marginal extruder -- right on the edge of working right -- the oil can get it running smoothly enough to get some use out of the printer. But it's a lot like those "Fix-a-flat" sprays, you can't just keep adding more and more forever if there's a nail in the sidewall and air is blowing out. It's an intermittent use thing for small issues or maybe a preventative thing. 

I typically put a small amount of canola oil in my all-metal extruders ONCE at first assembly and then get many hundreds of hours of life out of them with no additional oiling. But, like Toby says, there's always an underlying reason why extruders don't work right, and you should fix that instead of trying to soak it until it works. 

Seriously though, if you're worried about carbon deposits, natural oils are the wrong way to go. I hadn't really thought about it until now... but I really don't know why so many people use canola (or avocado or extra virgin olive or whatever) instead of a proper machinery oil. Unsaturated vegetable oils are relatively reactive at elevated temps. The lipids break off the glycerol, the double bonds break open and start reacting with things, you get oxidation, degradation, etc. 

Even high smoke point oils will eventually degrade. Why do you think deep-fryer oil needs changing on a regular schedule? It breaks down with time and temp. I think people assume a vegetable oil will be safer than a petroleum oil, but that's kind of the opposite of reality in this case. Here's a random excerpt from an oil thermal decomposition analysis paper I found in about 10 seconds of googling:

Vegetable oils are composed of glycerol molecule esterified by three fatty acids molecules. Each type of
vegetable oils is characterized by its own specific fatty acids ratio content. Predominant fatty acids have 16 or 18
carbon atoms in straight aliphatic chains. Unlike to desirable health benefits of PUFAs there is higher ability to
undergo degradation changes according to high level of double bonds presented. They are quite sensitive to
oxidative conditions and generate many degradation products including aldehydes, ketones, epoxides, hydroxy
compounds, etc. Many of them are now considered as toxic and potentially carcinogenic [9]. Oxidative stress can
cause conjugated double bond system formation as well as evaluation of trans fatty acids. The content of these
oxidation products can correspond to oil technological treatment, method and duration of storage and it has
undesirable influence on nutritional quality, safety and sensory properties [10]. Oxidation of unsaturated fatty acids
is the main reaction responsible of the degradation of lipids [2]. 
[...]
Oxidative degradation of oils can be increased by heating above 100°C. Chemical changes corresponding to C=C
bond during oxidation as well as degradation products formation are expected to be reflected in Raman spectral
changes [12]. 
[...]
However, prolonged heat load of all types of cooking oils causes the formation of degradation products that may undesirably affect the human health.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877705815004415

Yes, all natural oils release toxic chemicals as they degrade. And yes, all natural oils start to gradually break down at temperatures WAY below their smoke point. The smoke point is simply the temperature where the oil is breaking down so fast you can see the fumes cooking off. This stuff happens at a rate dependent on temperature.  It's not a magic "good forever below, bad immediately above" temperature. The smoke point is just the approximate temp where degradation is unacceptably fast for cooking use.

Compare to a hydrotreated naptha like a light petroleum lubricant is made from. It's distilled at high temps during production -- it can boil or catch on fire with some significant effort, but it will not spontaneously degrade under sustained heat exposure like all vegetable oils eventually do. Petroleum distillates are more thermally-stable than the filament itself. There should be no residue in the hot end unless the oil you're using contains low-temp-service additives. 

[JF Kansas]

How does a synthetic oil like Mobile 1 compare? 

[Ryan Carlyle]

Hmm, it would depend on the synthetic and the plastic. A PAO (poly-alpha-olefin) or high-spec mineral oil should be immiscible with normal filaments but might have issues with molten polyethylene/polypropylene. An ester-based oil might slightly dissolve into PLA (which is a polyester) so I'm not sure if that's a good idea. You'd have to know what's in the oil -- which is unlikely -- and then do some experiments. 

I think a simple old-school oil from before the use of bespoke additive packages (like 3-in-one) is probably safer than trying to use motor oil. Just on intuition, I think EP and anti-corrosion additives would probably not be good. 

[TobyCWood]

Love that fried tweenky! Yum!

[Jeff Davis]

I've been using my PLA Oiler on my Gen-5 for 6-8 months now.  I use WD-40 and love it!  I'm not a chemical engineer, but I do know how it performs and the only time I had a baked on junk was when I used canola oil in the beginning.  Once I switched to WD-40 I have not had one baked on jam or any filament jam really.  I have not done any layer bonding tests between (no oil print) and (WD-40 oil print) but I have used the parts just fine.  I have used screws into the PLA, Inset nuts and bolted things. 

[Ryan Carlyle]

Hmm, I would have thought WD-40 would cook off too fast. It's a really, really light oil. (It's a cleaner, not a lubricant.)

[DonaldJ]

Not an oil.  It's designed to displace water. WD = water displacement, and they got a viable product on the fortieth attempt.

Disclaimer: I read it someplace, but not on the internet...some old-school, 20th century dead tree publication.

[Dan Newman]

On 23/07/2015 3:33 PM, DonaldJ wrote:
> Not an oil. It's designed to displace water. WD = water displacement, and
> they got a viable product on the fortieth attempt.

The WD part at least makes sense and I always wondered what it stood for.

Dan

[Ryan Carlyle]

Yes, that's correct, it's formulated to purge water out of flooded engines and the like. It wets metal effectively, and it penetrates into crevices. Those two features make it a good water-removal fluid. But it's simply a god-awful lubricant. Way too light for good lubricity or longevity. Really does not deserve the reputation it has.

[DonaldJ]

Also, WD-40 gets sticky after a while and attracts dust and grit, which is not something you want where lubrication is desired.

[AzzA]

"... it's formulated to purge water out of flooded engines and the like..."

Now who's talking gibberish!?!?!?

I wet hinge, maybe, but a "flooded engine" is a stretch.

Now get back to the interesting stuff! The lot of you!

:-)

[AzzA]

"... Really does not deserve the reputation it has."

Neither do duct tape and cable ties but every Tom, Dick, and drunken Harry knows what they are, where to get them, and how to use them... if only to save the moment, or day, should they be so lucky. :-)

They definitely got the marketing right for those three "essential" items. ;-)

[Scott Booker]

That's not gibberish at all.

We buy WD-40 by the 55 gallon drum... and use it specifically for pickling engines that have been submerged.  It's a sad but common practice.

[Ryan Carlyle]

Wow, Scott, you might be the first person I've ever known who actually uses it correctly!

WD-40 was outright banned from one of my previous employers' shops because it's so damaging to equipment:

• Attacks/swells/degrades many types of o-ring
• Strips off nickel anti-friction coatings (I have no idea how, but we had lab test data proving it)
• Thins out lubricants
• Damages paint
• Collects dust/debris
• Removes protective oil films from parts and then evaporates, thus promoting long-term storage corrosion

Whenever somebody wanted to use WD-40 as a lubricant / cleaner / cutting fluid / whatever, we slapped them upside the head and told them to use Zep 45 instead. That's good stuff.