Trumpeter swans on China Lake

[JMSmith]

4 what i believe, are trumpeter swans are located at the north end of China Lake.  I tried identifying my photo on Merlin and it did not come up with an answer.  

[andrew...@gmail.com]

Sure they're not Mute Swans?  Hard to tell without blowing up the photo, but the posture, heads and bill color look good for that species.

Andrew

[Linda Scotland]

Either way, thanks for the post with a picture. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 26, 2022, at 5:45 PM, andrew...@gmail.com <andrew...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sure they're not Mute Swans?  Hard to tell without blowing up the photo, but the posture, heads and bill color look good for that species.

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[JMSmith]

I ruled out mute swans because they do not have an orange bill with a knob at the base.  I was debating between Tundra and Trumpeter.  The head and neck appear somewhat grayish as well.  I have never seen swans on China Lzke before.   Any swan experts out there?

[Mark Szantyr]

I might seriously consider mute swans for this group. 

Mark Szantyr

Storrs, CT

On Jun 26, 2022, at 5:45 PM, andrew...@gmail.com <andrew...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sure they're not Mute Swans?  Hard to tell without blowing up the photo, but the posture, heads and bill color look good for that species.

--

[JMSmith]

Based on this photo Merlin says Tundra swans.  Clearly, the bills are not orange

[JMSmith]

• Also says Tundra swans based on this photo

[Mark Szantyr]

Merlin is incredibly inaccurate. Just sayin. 

Mark Szantyr

Storrs, CT

On Jun 26, 2022, at 9:06 PM, JMSmith <jeanette...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Jay Pendleton]

Mark Szantyr, 

Instead of snarking that "Merlin is incredibly inaccurate" without offering any corroborating evidence, why don't you address the original poster's comment that 

"clearly, the bills are not orange," as they should be for mute swan? 

And for the record, I have no skin in this game beyond a concern for accuracy and fairness.

Jay Pendleton, Camden

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[Mark Szantyr]

A review of the photos seems to show less than adult swans ( note the off white dorsal coloration ) with the head and bill shape of Mute Swans.  The exposure is such that any color at all is difficult to discern but one bill appears to be not black but pale. I do not believe these swans are identifiable from these photos with any certainty but mute swan can not be eliminated. I do not accept that the bills “are clearly not orange”.

Now to Merlin. If birders spent more time writing accurate descriptions and less feeding info into a flawed program, we all might have information that can be used. Merlin allows lazy birding and forces identifications that are
Inaccurate and not a product of careful study and observation. Writing notes and making field sketches are worth so much more than a droid reinforcing sloppy id skills. 

Mark Szantyr

Storrs, CT

On Jun 27, 2022, at 9:13 PM, Jay Pendleton <jkp...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Jay Pendleton]

Mark, thank you for responding, both in detail and more calmly than I addressed you.

Jay Pendleton 

[Mark Szantyr]

It was my pleasure. 

Mark Szantyr

Storrs, CT

On Jun 27, 2022, at 11:50 PM, Jay Pendleton <jkp...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Louis Bevier]

These are Mute Swans, and a key character visible in all the photos, even the poorest, is the long and pointed tail. Trumpeter and Tundra Swans have short and rounded or squared-off tails. The dull pinkish bills with black frames is similar to that of juvenile and young immature Tundra and some Trumpeter Swans, but birds like that would not be expected until late summer (where they breed) or in fall and early winter.

The most likely swan in Maine during summer is still Mute Swan, but the species is unexpected in central Maine. Most Mute Swans in Maine show up along the coast from Sagadahoc County south. Trumpeter Swans have not yet made it to Maine regularly, with two records: April 2011 and March 2022. But the introduced populations are increasing and birds lingering into summer have been seen in New Hampshire, for example. But again, the bills would be all black in June and the tails short and not pointed.

The China Lake birds are all white, and I caution describing them as grayish or off-white. That is photo artifact and shading. It is important to work out characters in the field and take care interpreting what a photo shows. The dull orangish-pink bills and lack of obvious swollen knobs at the bill base suggest these are young birds about a year old. They could be siblings and traveling together. Although there was a pair of Mute Swans kept as pets in Waterville years ago, and someone had put out life-size inflatable Mute Swans in Oakland at the north end of Messalonskee, these would be the first Mute Swans in central Maine that are likely free-flying and from established introduced populations. Thanks for visiting; now please go home.

As far as entering these in eBird, if one is unsure of an identification, please use a broader category, like swan sp. (search the eBird species list if using the app). There is also Tundra/Trumpeter Swan in eBird, but in this case initial concerns included Mute; so swan sp. would be appropriate until one works out the identification. And let's hope they don't start showing up here, but there are Mute x Trumpeter hybrids.

Louis Bevier

Fairfield

On Sunday, June 26, 2022 at 2:47:04 PM UTC-4 JMSmith wrote:

[Jeanette Smith]

Replying to Mark specifically, but others as well.  We can all do without the snarkiness.  This should be educational and informative and not "I'm the only expert and your all idiots".   I have been birding my whole life.  I don't have the luxury to travel all over and find every bird that ever existed and draw them out in my journals.  I have almost zero experience with swans having only seen a tundra swan once previously.  I have an undergraduate degree in biology and am also a Maine Master Naturalist.  I am well schooled in scientific research.  I have the Merlin app on my phone, but don't use it as I prefer my Sibley book which has a broken binding and loose pages.  I saw these swans from a distance and only had my phone with me - no camera and no bins.  I also had just had ankle surgery 5 days prior to this so I couldn't even get out of the car to try to get better photos or a better view.  I was restricted to the car and the road.  I was excited to see them there and wanted to get the info out there for others.  I based my evaluation on what I had and I was still unsure of the ID.  To me the beaks did not appear orange and don't appear so in my photos.  Yes, in one bird it looks "pale" but not orange.  So I ruled out Mute swans.  Because I was unsure of the ID and wanted to post it I thought I would try Merlin.  I have heard it is unreliable, but have not used it enough to make any opinion.  I was expecting it to come up with all 3 species of swan and was surprised it went with Tundra although I was still leaning towards trumpeter so that is what I put in my post.  Forgive me for my grave error.  But rather than sparky comments and attacking my skills perhaps you could have posted some of your photos that I saw later on the Maine Birds Facebook page that were much better than mine and clearly identified them.  I am sorry that I ever made the post and will not do so again in the future because I don't need this attitude in my life.

[Richard J. Duddy]

These could be the same 4 Mute Swans that were in South Portland until 6/14. The bills on those birds fits Louis' description of the bills on these birds.

Turk

Cape Porpoise

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[wre...@gmail.com]

After debating whether to stick my neck out here and possibly get attacked, I've decided to speak.  I hope the moderator is listening.

I must concur with JMSmith re: "I don't need this attitude in my life."  The ridiculous egotistical snobbish nonsense exemplified in this thread captures most of the reason I almost never submit anything to Maine Birds anymore.  Some years back, I was subjected to different but equally useless commentary (submitting to me privately, not the whole group) after an entry I made.  The person's quibble with a term I used (one single word) was absurdly anal and condescending.  People are writing in here because they love birds and get joy and pleasure from our feathered planet-mates, and want to share their experiences and excitement with others who feel the same way. 

I do thank Louis Bevier for his educational, informative and courteous contribution to the discussion. He taught me something.  Thank you.

Anything else is a waste of our time.

[Sharon F.]

I concur that Louis Bevier has always been top notch and always helpful and informative! As for the rest-a little courtesy and kindness go a very long way...Sharon in South Paris

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From: maine...@googlegroups.com <maine...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of wre...@gmail.com <wre...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, July 1, 2022 11:37 AM
To: Maine birds <maine...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Maine-birds] Re: Trumpeter swans on China Lake

 

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[JMSmith]

Thanks for speaking up!  I think if more of us raise concern about some of the attitude that has been expressed in response to posts we might see improvement.  As  far as I know, Maine Birds is not just for experts to use.  All of us have made errors in ID at some point in our birding careers, but no one should belittle anyone.  Let’s spend more time enjoying a rare sighting, educating, and supporting each other in a positive way.  

[Craig Kesselheim]

I would also welcome a thread about *best* ways to use the Merlin ID app. The app is out there, widespread (not going away), and is helpful in many ways to newbies and sharpies alike. For one, I take a stance of skepticism towards its recommendations, but I also use it to assist my hearing. If Merlin Sound ID suggests that there is a Golden-crowned Kinglet out there that I haven't detected yet, I use that as a heads-up but not a confirmation. I pause and look harder for that tiny bird.

When I think I am hearing a distant song of a certain species and then Merlin Sound ID suggests the same ID I have in mind, I consider that a helpful second opinion.

Any others? Any helpful "avoid using Merlin this way" tips out there?

Best,

Craig K

Southwest Harbor

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[Mark Szantyr]

I want to apologize for what was interpreted as snarky remarks. That was surely not my intention. I have the dubious pleasure of observing hundreds of mute swans every year and have become very well informed on how they look ( body shape, facial pattern, tail shape, etc) so for me these immediately said mute swan. I probably could have been less brusque in my presentation.  I meant to shame or belittle no one. I have never used the Merlin app so i guess my opinion isn’t worth any more than my opinion.  I have come to trust people and the observational skills for more than a set of algorithms.  I apreciate that it could be a support system for hard to hear birds in a distant jumble of birdsong.

Again i am sorry i hurt so many feelings. I will be kinder in my involvement with sightings and in how i offer my thoughts about identifications. Its the last thing i meant to do to alienate any one in my second favorite state to bird.  

Again, i am very sorry

Mark Szantyr

Storrs, hi

On Jul 4, 2022, at 6:40 AM, Craig Kesselheim <ckess...@gmail.com> wrote:



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