Time to shut down this list?
Greg 'groggy' Lehey
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Most (all?) of the traffic on -newbies lately has been of technical
nature. That's not surprising, but there are a number of reasons why
it's not a good idea:
1. It's not the original charter of the mailing list. For reference:
This list is a gathering place for people new to FreeBSD.
Please feel free to share your experiences with others on this
list.
Support questions should be sent to
freebsd-...@freebsd.org. Technical questions should be
sent to freebsd...@freebsd.org. (NOT to the newbies list
please)
Full info and FAK http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/
Please read the info and FAK. They contain important information
regarding the purpose and use of this mailing list.
2. There's already a mailing list for technical questions, as
mentioned above: FreeBSD-...@FreeBSD.org.
3. Most of the experienced people on the FreeBSD-questions list don't
read -newbies. If they do, they've been told not to answer
technical questions there.
The result: ask a question on -newbies and you're less likely to get
an answer. If you do get an answer, it's less likely to be correct.
In either case, people on the -questions mailing list are not going to
see the answer, so even if the answer is correct, it's of less use to
the community at large.
I'd suggest that we slowly disband this list (over a period of, say,
two weeks). There are plenty of other FreeBSD mailing lists, and it's
up to you to join them. If you're interested in technical issues,
-questions is the obvious one to join.
Comments?
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
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Freek Nossin
already has a lot of typical topics that come up every so often (and that
probably belong here). When this list closes down - of which the content is
intended to be the type of questions that are asked very often - the number
of real "technical" questions in the -questions list will likely be pushed
to the background by newbie questions (where do I download the FreeBSD
cd's...).
_______________________________________________
freebsd...@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-newbies
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-newbi...@freebsd.org"
Nikolas Britton
>1. It's not the original charter of the mailing list. For reference:
>
> This list is a gathering place for people new to FreeBSD.
> Please feel free to share your experiences with others on this
> list.
>
One word, oxymoron.
How can you not get technical about something that is technical?
Wilko Bulte
> Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>
> >1. It's not the original charter of the mailing list. For reference:
> >
> > This list is a gathering place for people new to FreeBSD.
> > Please feel free to share your experiences with others on this
> > list.
> >
> One word, oxymoron.
>
> How can you not get technical about something that is technical?
Heheh... go and work in customer support for some time and I guarantee
you you will understand that this is indeed possible.
--
Wilko Bulte wi...@FreeBSD.org
Xinizul Xinizul
I'd see this list as a repository for newbies -like me- where
can share their new discoveries with their FreeBSD System -discoveries
that could help other newbies-
The pity is that no too much people use to do it.
Regards and Merry Christmas,
Xinizul
Charles Oppermann
I've always thought this was silly. All throughout the internet "newbies"
implies beginner. A newbie mailing list regarding an operating system is
naturally going to have people posting technical questions. Even if the
newbie is aware of the technical questions mailing list, they may make the
choice to post to freebsd-newbies because of intimidation.
I understand the purpose of the list is "a gathering place for people new to
FreeBSD" to "share [their] experiences with others" and I think that's
wonderful.
To accomplish that goal then, why not simply have a "freebsd-experience"
mailing list?
Personally, I think newbies (myself included) are intimidated by the
freebsd-questions list and feel they will be more welcomed in a newbies
list. For that reason, I think the freebsd-newbies list should stick around
and have it's charter changed to allow technical discussions - with a caveat
that they be moved to another list if not newbie oriented.
Regardless of what's done, something has to change simply because so many
people make the mistake of not reading or abiding my the current charter.
Currently newbie's are chastised at the very time they feel most intimated.
Instead, they should be welcomed, encouraged and nurtured.
I'm glad the FreeBSD organization is discussing this, because it's been
painful for me to watch people basically get yelled at for posting. Might
not seem like yelling to someone who subscribes to a dozen or more lists and
has tons of experience, but I'm sure the wet-behind-the-ears newbie has a
different impression of what is likely their first experience with the
FreeBSD community.
Nikolas Britton
>On Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 03:16:11AM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote..
>
>
>>Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>1. It's not the original charter of the mailing list. For reference:
>>>
>>> This list is a gathering place for people new to FreeBSD.
>>> Please feel free to share your experiences with others on this
>>> list.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>One word, oxymoron.
>>
>>How can you not get technical about something that is technical?
>>
>>
>
>Heheh... go and work in customer support for some time and I guarantee
>you you will understand that this is indeed possible.
>
>
NEVER!!!!
I cannot deal with users (need a translator), I'm a back office guy that
likes to work alone! (Bench Tech / Field Tech / level III support /
Sys,Net Admin / Net Eng, etc.), The first job I ever had was as a bench
tech @18, then went to tech school for network engineering and am now
going back to school for a BSCE (Computer Engneering) and after that a
Masters. I have always been a hardware guy (though I like learning the
in's and out's of OS's, this led me to DOS 5 - 8, Win 3.x, Win9x/ME,
NT3.1 - 5.1, OS/2, BeOS (dam you palm or killing it), Linux, and finally
FreeBSD (which I like the most, most cohesive and stable OS I have ever
seen, oh, and I love Perl! :-)). Once I tried user support and I had a
meltdown, got fired after two weeks. My Myers-Briggs explains it all:
I{S,N}TP, with extreme Introversion.
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/psychology/alt.psychology.personality/profiles/istp.html
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/psychology/alt.psychology.personality/profiles/intp.html
Nikolas Britton
>>>1. It's not the original charter of the mailing list. For reference:
>>>
>>>
>
ditto!, and this is why I do help them if they post here as I cannot sit
here with my thumbs up my ass telling them I can't help them when I know
I can. also questions is a high volume list already, do you really want
people asking how to mount there CDs and how to use tar there? The
message you are sending to the newbies that post here is that your stuck
up and don't care about them, this is never a good thing.
Xian
I originally signed up to -questions and -newbies, but was overwhelmed by the
volume of mail on -questions and unsubscribed after a few days. I feel much
more comfortable with -newbies, especially if I want to ask a very basic
question because I know we have all been there at some point.
I think it is better to tell some people that they should be asking on
-questions than close -newbies as really new people may feel intimidated and
not ask the very basic questions that this list is for.
I remember vividly when I had just installed FreeBSD, it asked for my lo gin
so I gave it my user name. Then it asked for a password so I gave it that.
But what sort of a question was '%'? I was most worried when 'help' didn't
work. I asked this list and anyone who would listen many basic questions that
I was wouldn't dared have asked on -questions.
--
/Xian
"Security is not the absence of danger, but the presence of God, no matter
what the danger"
Anon
Xian
Eric
the people asking the questions are really newbies.
Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>Most (all?) of the traffic on -newbies lately has been of technical
>nature. That's not surprising, but there are a number of reasons why
>it's not a good idea:
>
>1. It's not the original charter of the mailing list. For reference:
>
> This list is a gathering place for people new to FreeBSD.
> Please feel free to share your experiences with others on this
> list.
>
Mervin McDougall
persons you meet on your way up,cause these are the
same persons whom you meet on your down."
I myself am a noobie and I guess we all are on some
level. Nobody knows everything there is to know about
unix not a noobie or the most experienced kernel
hacker. To continue the legacy of persons acquiring
and learning freebsd you need to foster first that
feeling that it is ok to learn and it is not for an
elite few. Everyone has got to start somewhere for
goodness sake.
But if you consider over time if you are going to need
help from your user base to support you in any way,
they are going to look back on freebsd more for how
they were treated and how well they were attended to
more than the request for help. They will be pouring
out themselves to help even though they may not be the
best programmer, kernel hacker, documenter or
otherwise.
If we have to foster and maintain a community that
will ensure that FreeBSD will be there for others to
love and enjoy in the future we have to remember to do
those little things like helping out those who are not
as technically inclined to get up to speed.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Jazz up your holiday email with celebrity designs. Learn more.
http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com
Tyler Gee
intimidated to post to -questions or anything else. I know that when
I first started (which was only a year ago), I *never* would have felt
comfortable posting to a regular list, not because people there were
necessarily mean but because I felt my questions were too stupid.
I think if you get rid of -newbies you are going to see a lot of
people too scared to ask questions which means they risk moving away
from FreeBSD or you are going to see -questions inundated with
questions that will annoy people who don't want to deal with questions
that newbies tend to have.
I don't know what the problem is as people can merely unsubscribe from
-newbies. Personally I read through them and try to help people out
when I can.
Let's be honest, how else can we achieve our goals of world domination
if we are not nice to the little people. :)
Happy holidays all!
-wtgee
Nikolas Britton
>On Thursday 23 December 2004 10:19, Charles Oppermann wrote:
>
>
>>>>1. It's not the original charter of the mailing list. For reference:
>>>>
>>>>
I did the very same thing when I started learning FreeBSD, with FreeBSD
4.7/4.8.
>I think it is better to tell some people that they should be asking on
>-questions than close -newbies as really new people may feel intimidated and
>not ask the very basic questions that this list is for.
>
>
Agreed, if I can't help them (with a reasonable and (relatively) correct
answer) here then most others cannot as well, this is when I send them
on there way to questions, also, because this is a low volume list I
take the time to research the question first if I not "sure" about the
answer, this helps them but really helps me to learn the FreeBSD system.
>I remember vividly when I had just installed FreeBSD, it asked for my lo gin
>so I gave it my user name. Then it asked for a password so I gave it that.
>But what sort of a question was '%'? I was most worried when 'help' didn't
>work. I asked this list and anyone who would listen many basic questions that
>I was wouldn't dared have asked on -questions.
>
>
Speaking of "help" I have always though this sould at least be an alise
to man (or "man man", or "man %foo")... but what I really want a clone
of the MSDOS 6.xx Help system of the same name, when you typed in help
with no args. it would load a "hypertext" curses program that listed all
the commands (like "whatis") and then you could select a command for
detail info about it. anyways... in the DOS world you always type'd
"help, "help foo", or "foo /?" for help so for most people new to unix
and freebsd whatis and man are unknow to them.
David Benfell
>
> I think if you get rid of -newbies you are going to see a lot of
> people too scared to ask questions which means they risk moving away
> from FreeBSD or you are going to see -questions inundated with
> questions that will annoy people who don't want to deal with questions
> that newbies tend to have.
>
far too common a response on support lists. Another common response
is no response at all.
I have to qualify my comments here by saying I haven't paid enough
specific attention to these lists to differentiate between the
responses in the FreeBSD community from those of say, the OpenBSD or
Linux communities.
RTFM (Read The F* Manual) is an inadequate response, because 1) it is
not always clear what information is needed, 2) it is not always clear
where that information can be found, 3) the information is often
presented in a format which is suitable for experienced users who are
well-prepared for the various technical nuances, but not for people
who are in over their heads, and 4) it is an arrogant and offensive
response.
I've been working with UNIX-like operating systems since 1998. Before
that, in ancient history, I was a programmer/analyst, primarily on DEC
PDP-11 RSTS/E systems, where I programmed in BASIC-PLUS, BASIC-PLUS-2,
FORTRAN-IV, and PDP-11 MACRO Assembly language. I reveled in (and
still miss) TECO.
But having burned out as a programmer then, computers are, to me, very
much means to several ends. They are *not* ends, in and of
themselves. But in the meantime, things have gotten a lot more
complicated. What required full-time effort to understand in my day,
is a pale shadow of what must be understood today.
And so, even after all this time, I still have "stupid" questions,
questions which apparently do not merit a response on the several
technical support lists I am subscribed to, or which earn
condescending RTFM responses.
Technical culture has retained--this is nothing new--an arrogance
which finds fulfillment in the abuse of those who understand less
about these systems and may actually have lives outside their laptops.
And so the FreeBSD community, like other similarly-situated
communities has a choice: Its members can choose, as is traditional,
to use their knowledge and skill to boost their own egos, or they can
use it to reach out to others. One path leads to a smaller community,
and the other leads to a larger community. Which do you want?
--
David Benfell, LCP
ben...@parts-unknown.org
---
Resume available at http://www.parts-unknown.org/resume.html
Bill Campbell
>>>1. It's not the original charter of the mailing list. For reference:
>
>I've always thought this was silly. All throughout the internet "newbies"
>implies beginner. A newbie mailing list regarding an operating system is
>naturally going to have people posting technical questions. Even if the
>newbie is aware of the technical questions mailing list, they may make the
>choice to post to freebsd-newbies because of intimidation.
I tend to agree with this. A list that caters to ``newbies'' should be a
friendly place where people feel free to ask what might be considered
simple questions on the more technical lists. Learning any new OS can be
intimidating, and, even for people like me who read technical docs for fun,
knowing where to look is part of the learning curve.
One has to strike a balance though as list proliferation can make it
difficult to find answers. As an example the python and zope communities
seem to have a list for every possible topic, and people can get downright
unfriendly if a question is posted to the ``wrong'' list.
Bill
--
INTERNET: bi...@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC
UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way
FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676
URL: http://www.celestial.com/
``Our Foreign dealings are an Open Book, generally a Check Book.''
Will Rogers
Bill Campbell
>How about rename this list "Newbie Questions" and just go on trust that
>the people asking the questions are really newbies.
I wouldn't want to change the list name, but the description provided on
the Mailman listinfo page might be changed. My reluctance may be because
I'm a Mailman newbie, and don't know how to transfer things like the
archives from an old list to the new one (or how to import ten years of
Majordomo archives into the Mailman list that replaced it :-).
...
Bill
--
INTERNET: bi...@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC
UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way
FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676
URL: http://www.celestial.com/
``People from East Germany have found the West so confusing. It's so much
easier when you have only one party.'' -- Linus Torvalde, Linux Expo Canada
when asked about confusion over many Linux distributions.
Tyler Gee
is valid in as much as I notice that -newbies doesn't necessarily
generate a lot of discussion whereas something like bsdforums.org does
see a lot of obviously newbie questions. In fact, I have answered far
more newbie questions on that forum than I have even seen on -newbies.
Does that mean we should disband the list or redraft the description?
I am not entirely sure because of that "comfort" that is supplied the
very first time you are reading about the install and you see the
-newbies list. Furthermore, I am assuming that all of the questions
on -newbies are archived as part of the "official" correspondence of
FreeBSD, which is of legacy value also.
Wait a minute, I apparently switched from devil's advocate for Greg
back to my support of -newbies. Hmmmm. A little too much bailey's in
my holiday coffee this morning.
-wtgee
Wes Peters
> How about rename this list "Newbie Questions" and just go on trust that
> the people asking the questions are really newbies.
Newbies asking the questions isn't the problem. The problem is the newbies
*answering* the questions. ;^)
We (Core) are very interested in how best to address the needs of newcomers.
If the newbies list is a nice, low-intimidation place to meet that need, we
need to get better answers to the newbie questions.
Perhaps some legwork over the holidays by a couple of not-so-new newbies to
put together a newbie FAQ would be a start? Perhaps a nice notice to append
to the bottom of all newbies messages, reminding newbies of the list charter,
where the newbies FAQ is, etc, would be helpful? Perhaps we could find a way
to entice more experience users from the -questions list to troll the newbies
archive occasionally, answering questions not yet found in the FAQ? Maybe we
can set up a donation program where experienced users can get a Krispy Kreme
in return for answering a newbie question?
Come on, newbies, let's hear YOUR ideas on how to get better answers for your
questions.
(I personally wish we had the ability to clone Doug White a dozen times and
throw all the Douglets into supporting newbies, but we keep experiencing DNA
copy errors and the Douglets become flightless antarctic waterfowl. Weird.
Maybe we shouldn't gzip the DNA before transmittal...)
--
Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?
Wes Peters w...@softweyr.com
Kevin Kinsey
>Most (all?) of the traffic on -newbies lately has been of technical
>nature. That's not surprising, but there are a number of reasons why
>it's not a good idea:
>
>
These reasons (though snipped) are correct, of course.
The central issue, then, is that the list isn't living up
to its charter. [?] That is not surprising to me either, because
the charter has always seemed a bit confusing; or, maybe
"confusing" isn't the proper term, but I, as many others,
have often wondered, "if we can't talk about FreeBSD
(with our concerns, generally, as most FreeBSD users
are either creating FreeBSD or climbing up its learning
curve), then what is this list for"?
I think it's probably human nature; a thread on the
topic of, say, "Happy Birthday 2 Me", doesn't garner
a lot of responses. In searching my archives, however,
I see very few threads here that aren't of a questions@
nature. Indeed, the one I mention is about the only one
I found (with the exception of a couple of cron jobs
[Dan L's "Diary" and Auntie Sue's "FAK"]) that isn't
asking a question. [Admittedly, my local archive starts
on August 1, and `visual diff` isn't the great comparison
tool.]
>I'd suggest that we slowly disband this list (over a period of, say,
>two weeks). There are plenty of other FreeBSD mailing lists, and it's
>up to you to join them. If you're interested in technical issues,
>-questions is the obvious one to join.
>
>Comments?
>Greg
>
>
I'm sure you're looking for a word from Sue, which
you may have already received via private mail, but
I'll contribute in the O.S. tradition ... ;-) Please understand
that I'm thinking out loud, and I am not making demands
(as I have no right to do so, and you are perfectly within
your rights to discontinue the lists as you see fit.)
Are there any other reasons for disbanding, or is it
simply that the list and the charter don't mix?
It's certainly true that there are many other lists
that may be more appropriate; but I also think, as
many other posters have mentioned, that a "point of
entry" for questions that "might be dumb" isn't
such a bad idea, precisely because human nature
seems to indicate that people will ask a lot of FAQs
and/or repetitive questions simply out of either laziness
or a real lack of understanding, and because the same
human nature seems to also indicate that they will certainly,
on occasion, get flamed/RTFMed/belittled; it's not
good "PR" for the Project, but I'm not sure what can
be done about it.
I resonated with phk@'s call (in Scott L's "Project wish-list
for the next 12 months" thread over in hackers@) for
"a band of happy 1st line responders ...." Granted, he
was talking specifically about PR's, but I see the need
for something similar on the lists. It might be desirable
either to simply change the newbies charter (or list name)
to something like "FreeBSD-FAQs" and allow people to
ask their "might be dumb" questions, or else go ahead
and drop newbies@ while making it *quite clear* (and I
guess I'm suggesting with "core hat" on) to the community
that people of all levels of skill, both technical and linguistic
(and otherwise) use the questions@ list, and RTFMing/flaming/
/belittling is not considered an acceptable use of the questions@
list, and that the Right Thing(tm) in some cases would be to
ignore those topics that "tend to offend" and let someone
else with more patience and/or time on their hands handle
the "why isn't there a `help` command?", "why does su say *sorry*?",
and "why the devil is the devil on your web site?" type questions...
Maybe that could be a new cron job, or added to your
current one ("how to get the best results") although the
nature of that post is a little different in that it attempts
to raise the level of awareness and literacy of the user in
preparation for "fitting in" to the acceptable social order
(gosh, that's a terrible paragraph ... I apologize for not
being able to get the right words for my thoughts on this,
I don't intend to offend, if indeed I am).
It appears to me there are three or four things that could be done:
1. Have two "questions" type lists, one for the "easy/FAQ"
type questions and another for more difficult ones, by
either creating a new one or changing the charter of
this one.
2. Attempt to make "questions@" a bit more tolerant and
"friendly."
3. Maintain status quo (with newbies@ in existence).
4. Maintain status quo (without newbies@ in existence).
I don't envy you this/these decision(s). I suppose I'd welcome
one less mail filter to maintain, but I don't want to bruise too
many egos or black the Project's eye any more than necessary,
either.
Thank you for all you have done and are doing for FreeBSD,
and for the mailing lists, as well.
Kevin Kinsey
Jay O'Brien
> On Thursday 23 December 2004 04:37, Eric wrote:
>
>>How about rename this list "Newbie Questions" and just go on trust that
>>the people asking the questions are really newbies.
>
>
> Newbies asking the questions isn't the problem. The problem is the newbies
> *answering* the questions. ;^)
>
> We (Core) are very interested in how best to address the needs of newcomers.
> If the newbies list is a nice, low-intimidation place to meet that need, we
> need to get better answers to the newbie questions.
>
> Perhaps some legwork over the holidays by a couple of not-so-new newbies to
> put together a newbie FAQ would be a start? Perhaps a nice notice to append
> to the bottom of all newbies messages, reminding newbies of the list charter,
> where the newbies FAQ is, etc, would be helpful? Perhaps we could find a way
> to entice more experience users from the -questions list to troll the newbies
> archive occasionally, answering questions not yet found in the FAQ? Maybe we
> can set up a donation program where experienced users can get a Krispy Kreme
> in return for answering a newbie question?
>
> Come on, newbies, let's hear YOUR ideas on how to get better answers for your
> questions.
>
> (I personally wish we had the ability to clone Doug White a dozen times and
> throw all the Douglets into supporting newbies, but we keep experiencing DNA
> copy errors and the Douglets become flightless antarctic waterfowl. Weird.
> Maybe we shouldn't gzip the DNA before transmittal...)
>
Wes,
As a newbie, I've had many questions; I still have them and as I get the time
to learn more I'll have more questions. I've received very useful, prompt and
detailed responses on -questions, and I've monitored the -newbies list. My take
on the -newbies list is that most of the responses are "take it to -questions",
so I did that without first posting to -newbies.
You ask newbies to respond; "how to get better answers?". How about a search engine
that provides useful responses to newbie questions? I get much better and more
useful responses from google than I do at the http://www.freebsd.org/search/
page. To see what I mean, at "Web pages (including FAQ and Handbook)" type boot.
The response is intimidating, the 25 hits are in six languages, and you don't learn
how to select your language until you learn by trial and error. There is no way to
restrict hits to one language. There are no snippets of helpful text to help you
decide what to try first. That was my first exposure to FreeBSD; my reaction was to
order some books from Amazon. Later, after reading Leahy and Lucas, I found the
FreeBSD handbook on line to be an even better source; but initially I was
overwhelmed, especially when trying to "learn" from MAN pages. MAN pages are
written for someone who already knows the answer. Try MAN BOOT for example. Mind
boggling as a first exposure; but now that I have it working, MAN BOOT NOW makes
sense to me. MAN BOOT explains what IS working, not how to make it work. Not a
problem, but in retrospect I think I should have been warned about the tenor of
MAN pages and steered away from them initially.
For a comparison, go to Google and type in FreeBSD boot. Now this is useful, and
where I go first, not to the FreeBSD search page. Maybe google could be used
as the FreeBSD search engine, limited to the FreeBSD pages?
FreeBSD suffers from the malady of most technical documentation. The docs are
written by people who understand the subject and do a great job of telling the
story to those who already know the story.
Well, you asked, and thanks for asking.
You didn't ask about -questions, but I'm going to answer anyway. The folks on
-questions are better, faster, friendlier and more accurate than any paid
support staff I've ever encountered. I'm pleased to be associated, if only in
a small way, with such a dedicated and committed team.
Merry Christmas to all.
Jay O'Brien
Rio Linda, California USA
Gianluca
as a freebsd newbie myself, I'm a little ambivalent about the list and
the overall attitude towards really FAQ-type questions. no matter how
many helpful (and knowledgeable) people might monitor this list and
answer every question, RTFM (not in such a rude way) is a necessary
answer in the OSS world: if you're installing freebsd and get
intimidated by the tcsh prompt, there's something intrinsically wrong
that no number of helpful answers will correct. I did choose freebsd
over the other free *nixes for my impression of better documentation
and community support, but especially because there's already an
awesome piece of documentation like the handbook, questions that are
really too basic are just adding to the background noise.
what I'd really like/need as a newbie are more tutorials in the style
of samba's how-to, i.e. walkthroughs for selected scenarios that are
representative of real-world use of the OS. stuff like what the
freebsddiary provides, but much more and more oriented to newbies/home
users that are probably coming from windows. I'm thinking for example
of common things like setting up a home firewall, or a simple file
server (maybe with RAID which is what I'm struggling w/ right now)
with recommendations all the way from the hardware ("if you're buying
new, X is more supported than Y" is something I'd really like to see
explicitly more often) to installation, configuration and maintenance.
having said that I wouldn't want to see newbies- go though :)
g.
Tyler Gee
Hi,
I've been subscribing to this list for over 3 years. I initially subscribed
to the -questions list also, but I couldn't handle the volume, and also
couldn't interpret the language used there. I need to learn in a language
that I know, or at least get an interpreter for the manpage-ese that's used
in replies to questions on that list.
I ask a simple question, how do I automate ports update? I get "read the
manpages" or quoting from the manpages which is written in a language
foreign to me, but masquerades as English. Where can I get at least a good,
simple glossary for the terms used in the manpages and on the questions
list?
I asked questions here, and got yelled at, at great length. I have not
posted to this list for over a year because of that.
Peterhin
First of all two years ago I started playing with GNU/Linux, having used the
other systems, and was thrilled by GNU/Linux. What I found however was the
HUGE amount of info on the Web. Slowly I started to realize that it could
become a full time occupation just trying to find all the relevant material
in trying to solve a certain problem. I have to admit that I was becoming
overwhelmed by it all.
Then a few weeks ago a sys. admin. suggested that I have a look at FreeBSD.
My first impression after going to freebsd.org was now I will have to find all
the other relevant sites as I had to do with GNU/Linux. However after going
through freebsd.org,s site I started to see that all that I would need could
be found right here.
This has a certain appeal to me, for when you have a problem, you want to have
answers close at hand.
I have always worked on the principal if you have a problem try to go to
source for your answer. With the little I understand of BSD it seems to me
that they have tried to stay as close to source as possible. What I mean is
after reading
http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/rants/bsd4linux/bsd4linux1.php whch was
brought to my attention by Joshua Tinnin, and I thank him for that, was that
the people behind freeBSD had a vision of a (pure?) system. I see now how all
over the place Linux is, the idea is great, and the sys. works really well
for most.
Back to my point, as a newbie trying to learn freebsd, first of all the source
for info is close at hand, that is great, the support from all the different
mailing lists. etc. is a definite plus. What those of you who have the
experience with freebsd, might want to consider is that for those of us who
have never worked with Unix, we have to learn a whole new language, and that
can be daunting at times.
So as a newbie what I would appreciate is just what I have experience in the
last two days, lots of positive and polite responses, (As a wise man once
said "No question is a stupid question, its the opportunity to learn")
There was a suggestion of putting up a newbie FAQ, that would be great, and as
I think about it some more, hopefully I can come up with my humble ideas.
"Mentoring" is a wonderful way for all of us to learn, maybe there is
something that could be done with this.
I thank you all for your concerns over this issue, (especially as a newbie) it
shows me that there are people who take pride in what they do. My hope is
that some day I will be able to pass on some relevant advise, on Freebsd.
--
Peter
"Peace is never more than one thought away"
GNU/Linux
Freedom
http://libranet.com
http://www.fsf.org
Robert Marella
Kevin Kinsey <k...@daleco.biz> wrote:
> Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>
> >Most (all?) of the traffic on -newbies lately has been of technical
> >nature. That's not surprising, but there are a number of reasons why
> >it's not a good idea:
> >
> >
>
> These reasons (though snipped) are correct, of course.
>
<more snip...>
> It's certainly true that there are many other lists
> that may be more appropriate; but I also think, as
> many other posters have mentioned, that a "point of
> entry" for questions that "might be dumb" isn't
> such a bad idea, precisely because human nature
> seems to indicate that people will ask a lot of FAQs
>
Let us not forget how FAQs became FAQs. Sometimes an acronym takes
on a life of it's own and in this case it is sometimes misconstrued
as a *fact*. It means Frequently Asked Questions. There must be a
reason why they are frequently asked!
I have been using FreeBSD for almost a year. I absolutely love it.
My troubles were plenty when I started and I subscribed to newbies@
and lurked for a while. I realized quickly that this was not the place
to ask technical questions so I subsribed to questions@ and lurked there.
My first post to questions was very helpful. I received zero responses
and was forced to find the answer myself. A great learning experience.
I have since asked about a dozen questions and sometimes I still do
not receive a response. Questions@ is not the *end all* for answers.
I feel that there is a need for a newbies@ but it needs to provide
some help. If one was to go to a forum there are always stickies and
direct links to the FAQs. Perhaps this can be incorporated into
newbies.
My 2 seashells
Mele Kalikimaka
Robert
Nikolas Britton
> Speaking of "help" I have always though this sould at least be an
> alise to man (or "man man", or "man %foo")... but what I really want a
> clone of the MSDOS 6.xx Help system of the same name, when you typed
> in help with no args. it would load a "hypertext" curses program that
> listed all the commands (like "whatis") and then you could select a
> command for detail info about it. anyways... in the DOS world you
> always type'd "help, "help foo", or "foo /?" for help so for most
> people new to unix and freebsd whatis and man are unknow to them.
I may have a simple solution to this: create a new man page named
"help", in this man page is a brief (newbie oriented) one page guide on
how to use the man pages and how to find commands to use (whatis /
apropos, btw who came up with that name? I could not remember it if my
life depended on it). this man page would then be aliased as "help".
what do yea think?
S Jagger
I will voice my opinion on this matter.
The freebsd-newbies list should be an open area for new users to
FreeBSD. As I read earlier.. people are intimidated by posting to other
groups.
This list should be for anything and everything. Questions or
Suggestions.
Stefan
Darren Pilgrim
> =20
> I will voice my opinion on this matter.
> The freebsd-newbies list should be an open area for new users to
> posting to other
> groups.
> =20
> This list should be for anything and everything. Questions or
> Suggestions.
> Stefan
The end of this thread contains the phrase, "The charter of this list =
was
hashed out years ago, is now well-established, works reasonably well and
isn't likely to change much any time soon."
This thread can be expected to cover these additional points:
- The -questions list has a bug: when a common or newbie non-technical
question is posted, a race condition occurs in which everyone tries to =
wait
for someone else to answer the question.
- Those of us who read and answer technical questions posted here are =
urged
do so with redirection to -questions. Failure to do so usually results =
in
careful application of clue-oriented, dimensional wood-products.
- Also recommended are pointers to additional resources, such as =
searchable
mailing list archives and pointers to other threads or guides adressing =
the
queried subject.
Joshua Tinnin
<d...@bitfreak.org> wrote:
> > From: S Jagger
> >
> > I will voice my opinion on this matter.
> >
> > posting to other
> > groups.
> >
> > Suggestions.
> >
>
> The end of this thread contains the phrase, "The charter of this list
> well
At the risk of sounding impertinent, I disagree that it works reasonably
well. I do think there is some value in a newbie list, but 50%+ of the
traffic on this list for extended periods of time is technical
questions, a few scattered answers and admonitions to ask the questions
list. For some people, the questions list is overwhelming and
intimidating. I think this list would work reasonably well under the
current charter if it were moderated. I don't have much history with
the FreeBSD community, but since I brought it up, I'm willing to offer
to do that. I do have extensive experience moderating email lists. But
I also think that this list would "work" better if it had a slightly
different charter which allowed for entry-level tech questions, and a
clause that reiterates all users should be polite to people who ask
what might seem like silly questions. I think that's what newbies need
more than anything: a place to ask questions about rudimentary problems
without feeling a sense of intimidation about doing it. Some of the
questions would be/are basic *nix stuff, which isn't necessarily
on-topic in questions, but it would be nice for those very new (to *nix
in general) users to have a place to ask about that sort of thing.
Anyway, my two cents. Other than that, if nothing else I hope that this
list can survive in some useful form.
- jt
> and isn't likely to change much any time soon."
>
> This thread can be expected to cover these additional points:
>
> - The -questions list has a bug: when a common or newbie
> non-technical question is posted, a race condition occurs in which
> everyone tries to wait for someone else to answer the question.
>
> - Those of us who read and answer technical questions posted here
> are urged do so with redirection to -questions. Failure to do so
> usually results in careful application of clue-oriented, dimensional
> wood-products.
>
> - Also recommended are pointers to additional resources, such as
> searchable mailing list archives and pointers to other threads or
> guides adressing the queried subject.
Scott Emerson Longley
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004, Nikolas Britton wrote:
>
> > Speaking of "help" I have always though this sould at least be an
> > alise to man (or "man man", or "man %foo")... but what I really want a
> > clone of the MSDOS 6.xx Help system of the same name, when you typed
> > in help with no args. it would load a "hypertext" curses program that
> > listed all the commands (like "whatis") and then you could select a
> > command for detail info about it. anyways... in the DOS world you
> > always type'd "help, "help foo", or "foo /?" for help so for most
> > people new to unix and freebsd whatis and man are unknow to them.
>
>
> I may have a simple solution to this: create a new man page named
> "help", in this man page is a brief (newbie oriented) one page guide on
> how to use the man pages and how to find commands to use (whatis /
> apropos, btw who came up with that name? I could not remember it if my
> life depended on it). this man page would then be aliased as "help".
> what do yea think?
IMO, that's a great idea. Actually, OpenBSD does it, so it might be a
useful example. ( http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi?query=help )
Not having a "help" command was a frustration to me a few years back when
I had just started fooling with Unices, so I would like to see the idea
catch on for the sake of all those who are in that position now.
-Scott Longley
Wes Peters
> I'm a newbie, and until now, a lurker.
>
> I do not want this list disbanded. I believe that I belong here.
Thanks, this is exactly the sort of discussion I was hoping for.
> Case in point:
>
> I just got my hardware ready. I will be loading 4.10 on my new test
> box. (5.2.1 hated the ACPI and required that I select NO ACPI from
> the menu all the time.) I wanted to mirror software that my ISP uses
> so I tried to find out what version of the OS they were running.
>
> It took me 20 minutes of googling to find the uname command. Then I
> had to find the same for perl and php (easier). I never did find out
> how to do this for apache.
Piece of cake. The server will tell you what it's running in response a
simple GET request. The way you do this is to use telnet to connect to port
80 and tell the server GET / HTTP/1.0 followed by two carriage returns.
Here's a transcript, with my typing marked as C: and the server replies with
S: for clarity. (The "Trying", "Connected", and "Escape" lines are printed
by the telnet client.) This is being run from freefall.freebsd.org, against
my server, feel free to try it yourself:
C: wes@freefall$ telnet www.bsdconspiracy.net 80
Trying 69.75.218.19...
Connected to softweyr.homeunix.net.
Escape character is '^]'.
C: GET / HTTP/1.0
S: HTTP/1.1 200 OK
S: Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:13:38 GMT
S: Server: Apache/1.3.29 (Unix) PHP/4.3.7 mod_ssl/2.8.16 OpenSSL/0.9.7c
S: Content-Location: index.html.en
S: {much more output elided...}
So we see that bsdconspiracy.net is run on Apache 1.3.29, along with an
out-of-date, insecure version of PHP (an upgrade is in the closet right now,
waiting to get finished)
> But I would never have asked that question on the -questions list
> because I felt stupid. I didn't ask that question here because we
> aren't supposed to.
And so now I've violated the list charter, too. ;^)
If I knew of a good, simple FAQ that answered this, I would've pointed you to
it. The problem is, somebody else is going to want this same question
answered again next week, and they're not going to know to search the
archives for this wonderful answer I've just given you. That's an even
"better" problem to solve than simply answering your question, even if it
doesn't solve your immediate problem.
--
Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?
Wes Peters w...@softweyr.com
Jeff Lewis
I do not want this list disbanded. I believe that I belong here.
I do like reading/learning from the questions asked/answered,
and am mildly disappointed when I see the person referred to the
-questions list. I understand the original charter of the list.
I see little that truly DOES follow the charter.
I do NOT however believe that I can "run with the big dogs" on the
-questions list. The sheer volume alone makes it impossible for me
to filter out what I will grasp (I am a lurker) as many of the
questions are over my head, let alone the follow-up and answers.
At best, I can only google for keywords when I have a question,
or post one myself. I have posted on some Red Hat linux -questions
lists with pretty sad results.
I applaud you Greg for bringing this subject up as it really does
need some discussion. And trying to stand in your shoes for just
a moment, I appreciate your concern for folks asking questions
and not getting answers, or worse, getting an incorrect answer
from another newbie. And I thank you for that.
I'd like to broaden the discussion, just a little.
You suggested disbanding the list. I would suggest modifying the
charter.
I've tried several times to figure out how to word this question
nicely, and it always comes off smug. It's not how I mean it, but
here goes anyway.
Who does this list serve?
If it serves the Experienced by documenting the newbie experience or
even just segregating newbie discussions, then your suggestion of
disbanding the list may indeed be the right one. There doesn't seem
to be alot of that happening here. We are noobs, just not prolific
ones. <g>
I will assume that you want all the Newbie questions on the -questions
list rather than here because THAT is where those willing to take the
time to answer them are. Not at all an unreasonable request.
But if this list serves the Newbies, and we (the Newbies) would
like to have questions answered here, then maybe it is time to modify
the charter. The PROBLEM with this is that the relationship is a
one-way symbiotic relationship. Newbies asking question won't get
very far without the Willing Experienced.
Perhaps the REAL underlying question to this whole discussion is,
"What are we going to do with the Newbies?"
- or -
"What are we going to do for the Newbies?"
And please note: the "WE" referenced above is an eclectic group of
dedicated individuals that know FreeBSD and are willing spend time
with those of us that don't know it. The ability and desire to teach
is often a lot more difficult than you might think -- and doubly so
on a mailing list where you cannot tell what the person's existing
knowledge or background is.
Wes Peters just posted the following question: "Come on, newbies,
let's hear YOUR ideas on how to get better answers for your questions."
Sir, I'd like to ask my newbie questions here and I really do
appreciate hearing from experieced FreeBSD users. If this isn't
feasible, then how can I ask question properly on the -questions list
so that folks answering them will not assume that I understand alot.
Prefixing the subject line with NEWBIE could work. Will it also mean
that it will be ignored by most?
Case in point:
I just got my hardware ready. I will be loading 4.10 on my new test
box. (5.2.1 hated the ACPI and required that I select NO ACPI from
the menu all the time.) I wanted to mirror software that my ISP uses
so I tried to find out what version of the OS they were running.
It took me 20 minutes of googling to find the uname command. Then I
had to find the same for perl and php (easier). I never did find out
how to do this for apache.
But I would never have asked that question on the -questions list
because I felt stupid. I didn't ask that question here because we
aren't supposed to.
Jeff
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Ronald Maggio
I could not state it any better myself!
Ron Maggio:)
I will assume that you want all the Newbie questions on the -questions
Case in point:
Jeff
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Robert Marella
Joshua Tinnin <krink...@spymac.com> wrote:
> but since I brought it up, I'm willing to offer
> to do that. I do have extensive experience moderating email lists. But
> I also think that this list would "work" better if it had a slightly
> different charter which allowed for entry-level tech questions, and a
> clause that reiterates all users should be polite to people who ask
> what might seem like silly questions.
I also think this would work but any moderator should be extremely
familiar with what is going on at the -questions list. Whenever possible,
rather than giving a straight answer, the moderator or other respondants
should show a link to where the question is answered or is currently
being discussed on -questions, -stable, -ports, etc.
This would have the additional benefit of weaning the (us) newbies off
of htis list and making them (us) more comfortable with the other
resources.
Mele Kalikimaka
Robert
John Murphy
>You ask newbies to respond; "how to get better answers?". How about a search engine
>that provides useful responses to newbie questions? I get much better and more
>useful responses from google than I do at the http://www.freebsd.org/search/page.
I certainly agree. The freebsd mailing list search rarely seems to provide
useful answers and, as the google mailing.freebsd search has disappeared, the
need to improve it is greater than before. In the mean time a google search
of docs.freebsd.org (phrase to search site:docs.freebsd.org) helps.
>You didn't ask about -questions, but I'm going to answer anyway. The folks on
>-questions are better, faster, friendlier and more accurate than any paid
>support staff I've ever encountered. I'm pleased to be associated, if only in
>a small way, with such a dedicated and committed team.
True. And those who feel intimidated by the volume of posts can use it
quite effectively without subscribing. Replies are ~always CC'd to the
OP and the current messages are browseable at:
http://docs.freebsd.org/mail/current/freebsd-questions.html
As for whether the newbies list should be closed down, I don't see that
anything would be gained by doing so. If the main fear is that newbie
answers are sometimes misleading/incorrect then this could be fixed by
convincing a few of the kind souls who man the questions list to also
subscribe to this one. It is *very* low volume most of the time.
OTOH would anyone expect perfect answers on a newbie list?
Perhaps all messages addressed to newbies@ should automatically go to
questions@. The subject field could be prepended with [newbies] and
the extra volume would hardly be noticed and would be similar to that
caused by closing this list.
We should consider changing the charter or the name instead of closure.
Would newbie-chat@ better indicate what the list is for?
--
Merry Christmas all, John.
Nikolas Britton
>I certainly agree. The freebsd mailing list search rarely seems to provide
>useful answers and, as the google mailing.freebsd search has disappeared, the
>need to improve it is greater than before. In the mean time a google search
>of docs.freebsd.org (phrase to search site:docs.freebsd.org) helps.
>
>
This will fix all your googling problems, bookmark it on your toolbar:
http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?&as_ugroup=*.freebsd.*
>
>
>If the main fear is that newbie
>answers are sometimes misleading/incorrect then this could be fixed by
>convincing a few of the kind souls who man the questions list to also
>subscribe to this one.
>
>
This is a good idea, they can use a hands off approach and if a "newbie"
gives bad advice they can step in and set things strait and also advise
when questions should be sent to questions.
John Murphy
>John Murphy wrote:
>
>>I certainly agree. The freebsd mailing list search rarely seems to provide
>>useful answers and, as the google mailing.freebsd search has disappeared, the
>>need to improve it is greater than before. In the mean time a google search
>>of docs.freebsd.org (phrase to search site:docs.freebsd.org) helps.
>>
>>
>This will fix all your googling problems, bookmark it on your toolbar:
>http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?&as_ugroup=*.freebsd.*
I found that by changing the URL slightly to:
http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?&as_ugroup=mailing.freebsd.questions
I can even search just the questions list again, or any other BSD list
google archives with a little modification. Thanks Nikolas, it's like
an early Christmas prezzy :)
--
John.
Gary D. Turner
>Most (all?) of the traffic on -newbies lately has been of technical
>nature. That's not surprising, but there are a number of reasons why
>it's not a good idea:
>
>1. It's not the original charter of the mailing list. For reference:
>
> This list is a gathering place for people new to FreeBSD.
> Please feel free to share your experiences with others on this
> list.
>
> Support questions should be sent to
> freebsd-...@freebsd.org. Technical questions should be
> sent to freebsd...@freebsd.org. (NOT to the newbies list
> please)
>
> Full info and FAK http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/
>
> Please read the info and FAK. They contain important information
> regarding the purpose and use of this mailing list.
>
>2. There's already a mailing list for technical questions, as
> mentioned above: FreeBSD-...@FreeBSD.org.
>
>3. Most of the experienced people on the FreeBSD-questions list don't
> read -newbies. If they do, they've been told not to answer
> technical questions there.
>
>The result: ask a question on -newbies and you're less likely to get
>an answer. If you do get an answer, it's less likely to be correct.
>In either case, people on the -questions mailing list are not going to
>see the answer, so even if the answer is correct, it's of less use to
>the community at large.
>
>I'd suggest that we slowly disband this list (over a period of, say,
>two weeks). There are plenty of other FreeBSD mailing lists, and it's
>up to you to join them. If you're interested in technical issues,
>-questions is the obvious one to join.
>
>Comments?
>Greg
>--
>See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
>
>
Greg,
Where you having a bad day when you wrote this? Have you been
around structure so long that you forget; sometimes asking the question
out of context can yield a wealth of knewledge. Either way I am a
newbie who will get the answer from wherever I find it. I am sure you
have a valid reason for writing this but
geewizzzz....................let the bits flow and don't bogart the list
man.
From someone who hopes to see this list continue,
Gary
Jeff Lewis
< snipped for brevities sake >
> Piece of cake. The server will tell you what it's running in response
> a simple GET request. The way you do this is to use telnet to connect
> to port 80 and tell the server GET / HTTP/1.0 followed by two carriage
> returns.
Thank you. Doing this showed that my ISP's server is also running 1.3.29.
That was ALL that it showed though, which is probably not a bad idea.
No one knows which OS they are running, whether PHP or Perl are available,
etc. I understand the arguments regarding security through obscurity. Is
there a good reason to display all of this information?
> S: Server: Apache/1.3.29 (Unix) PHP/4.3.7 mod_ssl/2.8.16 OpenSSL/0.9.7c
[Trying to stay on topic]
> And so now I've violated the list charter, too. ;^)
>
> If I knew of a good, simple FAQ that answered this, I would've pointed
> you to it. The problem is, somebody else is going to want this same
> question answered again next week, and they're not going to know to
> search the archives for this wonderful answer I've just given you.
> That's an even "better" problem to solve than simply answering your
> question, even if it doesn't solve your immediate problem.
I concur with your reasoning here. Does this mean that you believe the
charter should be altered as opposed to disbanding the list?
Would you be willing to join Joshua Tinnin in supporting such a change
by moderating the list, helping to determine when a question should go
to the -questions list, and attempting to help the newbies with their
issues?
I KNOW that I am not asking you to do something simple. I recognize
the significance of this. But as I originally stated, modifying the
charter of this list without the support of folks like you and Joshua
is simply foolish, and would absolutely CREATE the very scenario that
Greg was trying to prevent, newbies getting wrong answers.
I am not qualified to know who COULD be qualified to answer these
questions either. At best, I can only express the desire to have a
place where my dumb questions are not only expected, but where
someone can actually see a little past the question and try to get
at the underlying cause of the original confusion.
And that is NOT a simple task.
Jeff
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Joaquin Menchaca
Hi,
I have some UNIX experience (mostly Solaris and Linux), and I wanted to
toy with FreeBSD. I thought I could help with testing and documentation
of tidbits/hacks, etc. However, I am not sure where I would go if this
list is disbanded.
The reason I chose this area to subscribe to was that I didn't want to
plague the group with newbie questions. Unfortunately in other groups
for other topics, some list members get rude. For example, in the jserv
mailing list, the developers would chastise common questions and tell
them to read some unavailable FAQ (they wanted to use FAQ-o-matic, but
no one converted the original docs and the original docs were not
available). Given prior bad experiences, I think perhaps maybe some of
us were timid to ask questions of the newbie nature when approaching a
new open source project. :-)
If this is disbanded, I suggest putting out a weekly message
re-directing users to new lists, and phase it out over a month. On the
web page, note appropriate forums for questions of the newbie nature.
- joaquin
Wes Peters
> Wes Peters <w...@softweyr.com> wrote:
> >
> > If I knew of a good, simple FAQ that answered this, I would've pointed
> > you to it. The problem is, somebody else is going to want this same
> > question answered again next week, and they're not going to know to
> > search the archives for this wonderful answer I've just given you.
> > That's an even "better" problem to solve than simply answering your
> > question, even if it doesn't solve your immediate problem.
>
> I concur with your reasoning here. Does this mean that you believe the
> charter should be altered as opposed to disbanding the list?
No, I think the original charter would serve newbies better than asking
technical questions and receiving bad advice on the -newbies list. I'm all
for keeping the newbies list as a place to learn about other's experiences
with learning FreeBSD, and as a place to get general questions like 'how do I
learn more about running a web server on FreeBSD.'
What I don't want is to have an ongoing situation where questions get asked
and answered POORLY, leading people to believe that FreeBSD is somehow
broken.
When Sue Blake was the list nanny, issues like this generally got handled.
Sue hasn't been active for more than a year, and the quality of the
interactions has dropped because of it.
If the list is to survive, it needs another nanny (or a nanny group), to
direct people to FAQ, the -questions list, or other resources when they veer
outside the list charter and start needing technical help.
> Would you be willing to join Joshua Tinnin in supporting such a change
> by moderating the list, helping to determine when a question should go
> to the -questions list, and attempting to help the newbies with their
> issues?
>
> I KNOW that I am not asking you to do something simple. I recognize
> the significance of this. But as I originally stated, modifying the
> charter of this list without the support of folks like you and Joshua
> is simply foolish, and would absolutely CREATE the very scenario that
> Greg was trying to prevent, newbies getting wrong answers.
I'd like to, but I can't. Between work and family and FreeBSD I'm already
overbooked, I haven't had any real personal time in more than two years.
> I am not qualified to know who COULD be qualified to answer these
> questions either. At best, I can only express the desire to have a
> place where my dumb questions are not only expected, but where
> someone can actually see a little past the question and try to get
> at the underlying cause of the original confusion.
The cool part is, we don't need somebody who can answer questions, or even
necessarily tell the user where to get them answered. What we really need is
somebody to watch for threads that are veering off into non-newbies-list
topics and redirect those.
I don't know that it really requires official moderation, though we could do
that if the list members don't respond appropriately to suggestions by the
nanny(ies).
--
Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?
Wes Peters w...@softweyr.com
Joshua Tinnin
wrote:
I am curious about this. Did Sue ever encounter newbies who were
intimidated about asking -questions, and, if so, how did she handle it?
I realize that there is a certain personality to the lists, and the
people on FreeBSD's lists are more courteous than most (at least in my
experience), but how do you convince someone it's worth it to ignore
the noise? Moreover, I've found that most people in such a situation
don't want to ask the -questions list due to the traffic, although I
suppose it's always possible to post to the list without joining it.
Well, I agree that this would likely be the best of both worlds: having
moderation without having a moderator, per se, but it seems to me like
the frequency of newbies asking for technical help on this list
indicates a lack of clear communication of the group charter. I realize
newbies are less inclined (in general) to read instructions, but
perhaps this in itself is reason to make the charter more clear to
people before they join.
- jt
Wes Peters
One of my ideas is to come up with a short, succint version of the newbies
list charter and to have it appended to every message, as a list signature.
Would any of you "frequent newbie flyers" like to have a go at the text for
this? This gentle reminder should inform them to seek help on technical
questions on the -questions list, and refer to the newbies list charter via
URL.
*You* of all people should know where to find the official list charter. ;^)
--
Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?
Wes Peters w...@softweyr.com
Joshua Tinnin
How about something like, "freebsd-questions is not a technical help or
support list. See: http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ "
> *You* of all people should know where to find the official list
> charter. ;^)
Me, specifically? Well, yes, but I'm not sure why me, of all people ...
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/eresources.html#ERESOURCES-CHARTERS
- jt
Joshua Tinnin
On Monday 27 December 2004 07:16 pm, Joshua Tinnin
<krink...@spymac.com> wrote:
> How about something like, "freebsd-questions is not a technical help
> or support list. See: http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ "
Heh ... well, it would be better if it said freebsd-newbies, not
freebsd-questions ...
Wes Peters
> On Monday 27 December 2004 06:50 pm, Wes Peters <w...@softweyr.com>
> >
> > newbies list charter and to have it appended to every message, as a
> > list signature. Would any of you "frequent newbie flyers" like to
> > have a go at the text for this? This gentle reminder should inform
> > them to seek help on technical questions on the -questions list, and
> > refer to the newbies list charter via URL.
>
> support list. See: http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ "
>
> > charter. ;^)
>
> Me, specifically? Well, yes, but I'm not sure why me, of all people ...
>
> http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/eresources.html#E
>RESOURCES-CHARTERS
Ah, sorry, I meant the inclusive "you" as in the previously referred-to
"frequent newbie flyers". And perhaps another sentence or two describing
what the newbies list IS for?
But thanks for stepping up on this, I'm sure you'll come up with something
good, communicate it to core@, and someone there will shepherd it over to
postmaster. You see, I'm leaving on holiday tomorrow morn...
--
Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?
Wes Peters w...@softweyr.com
Joshua Tinnin
> On Monday 27 December 2004 19:16, you wrote:
> > On Monday 27 December 2004 06:50 pm, Wes Peters <w...@softweyr.com>
> > > One of my ideas is to come up with a short, succint version of
> > > the newbies list charter and to have it appended to every
> > > message, as a list signature. Would any of you "frequent newbie
> > > flyers" like to have a go at the text for this? This gentle
> > > reminder should inform them to seek help on technical questions
> > > on the -questions list, and refer to the newbies list charter via
> > > URL.
> >
> > How about something like, "freebsd-questions is not a technical
> > help or support list. See:
> > http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ "
> >
> > > *You* of all people should know where to find the official list
> > > charter. ;^)
> >
> > Me, specifically? Well, yes, but I'm not sure why me, of all people
> > ...
> >
> > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/eresource
>
> Ah, sorry, I meant the inclusive "you" as in the previously
> referred-to "frequent newbie flyers". And perhaps another sentence
> or two describing what the newbies list IS for?
>
> But thanks for stepping up on this, I'm sure you'll come up with
> something good, communicate it to core@, and someone there will
> shepherd it over to postmaster. You see, I'm leaving on holiday
> tomorrow morn...
I was going for the most brevity ... OK, then, ... hmmm ...
"freebsd-questions is a general discussion forum for new FreeBSD users
to share their experiences and to help each other with non-technical
issues. It is not a technical help or support list. See:
http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ "
I dunno. This part: "help each other with non-technical issues" sounds
not quite right, as people can answer broad technical questions here,
like whether it's better to use a GUI interface for system
administration. Am having trouble distilling a description down to one
sentence. Maybe that's alright and I'm just overthinking it. Will send
it out and see what you all think.
- jt
Nikolas Britton
Yea I understand why it doesn't make sense, oxymorons never do. You
might also what to think about changing freebsd-questions to
freebsd-newbies.
David J. Weller-Fahy
> "freebsd-questions is a general discussion forum for new FreeBSD users
> to share their experiences and to help each other with non-technical
> issues. It is not a technical help or support list. See:
> http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ "
What about:
Please use this list for general problem solving, sharing ideas, and
moral support. Take specific technical issues to freebsd-questions.
Most of that's from the charter.
Regards,
--
dave [ please don't CC me ]
Joshua Tinnin
> * Joshua Tinnin <krink...@spymac.com> [2004-12-28 09:20 +0100]:
> > "freebsd-questions
OK, once again that's supposed to be -newbies, but you knew that ...
man, not proofreading my email ...
> > is a general discussion forum for new FreeBSD users
> > to share their experiences and to help each other with non-technical
> > issues. It is not a technical help or support list. See:
> > http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ "
>
> What about:
>
> Please use this list for general problem solving, sharing ideas, and
> moral support. Take specific technical issues to freebsd-questions.
>
> Most of that's from the charter.
Personally, I like that better than mine. I think that pretty much says
everything. Maybe "technical support issues," although that might be
redundant. One nitpicky thing - although punctuation rules say it's
technically correct to use a comma before the last item in a series,
that is archaic usage, and the most commonly accepted modern rule is to
leave it off. So, it would be better as: "... problem solving, sharing
ideas and moral support." It's not that big of a deal, but it's better
to use accepted punctuation rules, and, besides, if it ends up the
other way it's going to drive me crazy. Sorry, but I was raised by a
mom who's an English teacher ...
- jt
David J. Weller-Fahy
> OK, once again that's supposed to be -newbies, but you knew that ...
> man, not proofreading my email ...
> > Please use this list for general problem solving, sharing ideas, and
> > moral support. Take specific technical issues to freebsd-questions.
>
> Personally, I like that better than mine. I think that pretty much
> says everything. Maybe "technical support issues," although that might
> be redundant.
The only reason I didn't include the word 'support' is that has specific
associations, one of which is the feeling that one is entitled to
receive help. I didn't want to give that impression, as these lists are
all voluntary.
> One nitpicky thing - although punctuation rules say it's technically
> correct to use a comma before the last item in a series, that is
> archaic usage, and the most commonly accepted modern rule is to leave
> it off. So, it would be better as: "... problem solving, sharing ideas
> and moral support." It's not that big of a deal, but it's better to
> use accepted punctuation rules, and, besides, if it ends up the other
> way it's going to drive me crazy. Sorry, but I was raised by a mom
> who's an English teacher ...
No problem. ;] I've never known grammar that well, so the correction is
appreciated. Here's the version with changes:
Please use this list for general problem solving, sharing ideas and
moral support. Take specific technical issues to freebsd-questions.
Regards,
--
dave [ please don't CC me ]
Chris Zumbrunn
On Dec 28, 2004, at 11:45 AM, David J. Weller-Fahy wrote:
> Please use this list for general problem solving, sharing ideas and
> moral support. Take specific technical issues to freebsd-questions.
The problem is that newbies tend to think that their technical issues
are just "general problems" which they have because they are newbies.
Newbies will still ask on freebsd-newbies because they think their
problem doesn't qualify as a "specific technical issue". How about
something like this:
Please use this list to share your thoughts and experiences with other
users new to FreeBSD. Send all your questions asking for support and
problem solving to freebsd-...@freebsd.org and not to this list.
Chris
Nikolas Britton
>On Tuesday 28 December 2004 01:48 am, "David J. Weller-Fahy"
><dave-lists-fr...@weller-fahy.com> wrote:
>
>
>>* Joshua Tinnin <krink...@spymac.com> [2004-12-28 09:20 +0100]:
>>
>>
>>>"freebsd-questions
>>>
>>>
>
>OK, once again that's supposed to be -newbies, but you knew that ...
>man, not proofreading my email ...
>
>
>
>>>is a general discussion forum for new FreeBSD users
>>>to share their experiences and to help each other with non-technical
>>>issues. It is not a technical help or support list. See:
>>>http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ "
>>>
>>>
>>What about:
>>
>>Please use this list for general problem solving, sharing ideas, and
>>moral support. Take specific technical issues to freebsd-questions.
>>
>>Most of that's from the charter.
>>
>>
>
>Personally, I like that better than mine. I think that pretty much says
>everything. Maybe "technical support issues," although that might be
>redundant. One nitpicky thing - although punctuation rules say it's
>technically correct to use a comma before the last item in a series,
>that is archaic usage, and the most commonly accepted modern rule is to
>leave it off. So, it would be better as: "... problem solving, sharing
>ideas and moral support." It's not that big of a deal, but it's better
>to use accepted punctuation rules, and, besides, if it ends up the
>other way it's going to drive me crazy. Sorry, but I was raised by a
>mom who's an English teacher ...
>
>- jt
>
>
My college English teacher said it was only ok for news papers to leave
it off so they could save space.
Felix 'buebo' Kakrow
--bg08WKrSYDhXBjb5
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Am 23.12.04 11:19 schrieb Charles Oppermann <cha...@coppersoftware.com>:
> Personally, I think newbies (myself included) are intimidated by the
> freebsd-questions list and feel they will be more welcomed in a newbies
> list. For that reason, I think the freebsd-newbies list should stick aro=
und
> and have it's charter changed to allow technical discussions - with a cav=
eat
> that they be moved to another list if not newbie oriented.
I totaly agree with that. Strikes me as the best option to have basicly
two technical oriented list. One for Newbies with kind of
FreeBSD-For-The-Inexperienced flavour and the down and dirty questions@
for the experienced user.
I think this will create a much friendlier athmosphere, than having
newbie-questions asked at questions@.
Greetings,
Felix
--=20
"I should have been a plumber."
-- Albert Einstein
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DerAlSem
Tuesday, December 28, 2004, 2:41:27 PM, you wrote:
> Am 23.12.04 11:19 schrieb Charles Oppermann <cha...@coppersoftware.com>:
>> Personally, I think newbies (myself included) are intimidated by the
>> freebsd-questions list and feel they will be more welcomed in a newbies
>> list. For that reason, I think the freebsd-newbies list should stick around
>> and have it's charter changed to allow technical discussions - with a caveat
>> that they be moved to another list if not newbie oriented.
> I totaly agree with that. Strikes me as the best option to have basicly
> two technical oriented list. One for Newbies with kind of
> FreeBSD-For-The-Inexperienced flavour and the down and dirty questions@
> for the experienced user.
> I think this will create a much friendlier athmosphere, than having
> newbie-questions asked at questions@.
Agreed. I was subscribed to questions, but there's large traffice
there. So, i stayed only at newbies. But it's a bit not enough. And
questions is too much. ;-)
--
Best regards,
DerAlSem mailto:dera...@inbox.ru
David J. Weller-Fahy
> On Dec 28, 2004, at 11:45 AM, David J. Weller-Fahy wrote:
> >moral support. Take specific technical issues to freebsd-questions.
>
> are just "general problems" which they have because they are newbies.
> Newbies will still ask on freebsd-newbies because they think their
> problem doesn't qualify as a "specific technical issue".
True, I hadn't thought of that. Hrm.
> How about something like this:
>
> Please use this list to share your thoughts and experiences with other
> users new to FreeBSD. Send all your questions asking for support and
> problem solving to freebsd-...@freebsd.org and not to this list.
I like the wording, but was trying to keep it at two lines. Let me take
a try at rewording:
Please share your thoughts/experiences with other new FreeBSD users here.
Send support or problem solving questions to freebsd-...@freebsd.org.
I think that conveys all needed information without being too long.
Regards,
--
dave [ please don't CC me ]
Chris Zumbrunn
On Dec 28, 2004, at 1:04 PM, David J. Weller-Fahy wrote:
> Please share your thoughts/experiences with other new FreeBSD users
> here.
> Send support or problem solving questions to
> freebsd-...@freebsd.org.
>
> I think that conveys all needed information without being too long.
Yes!
Chris
Giorgos Keramidas
> I realize that there is a certain personality to the lists, and the
> people on FreeBSD's lists are more courteous than most (at least in my
> experience), but how do you convince someone it's worth it to ignore
> the noise? Moreover, I've found that most people in such a situation
> don't want to ask the -questions list due to the traffic, although I
> suppose it's always possible to post to the list without joining it.
The most important detail is the one you list near the end of this
paragraph. It is not obligatory to _subscribe_ to the freebsd-questions
list to post a question there :-)
There are no traffic problems when you just post a few messages in a
single thread.
I know that people are reluctant to post to -questions. I just don't
know why yet, but this is something that, in my opinion, _can_ be helped
by the presence of the -newbies list.
My relatively aggressive PR in favor of FreeBSD in the Linux companies I
hang out with, has started to bear fruit. Many people here in Patras
have now heard about FreeBSD. Some of them have also tried to use it
for real work. Most of them seem very reluctant to post to the
-questions list though.
I have had a few conversations with those who don't post to mailing
lists and tried to discuss this reluctancy they seem to have. One of
the major causes of questions that remain unanswered is the fear of
"asking stupid things". Which is silly, but that's the way the guys
I've talked with think.
When I point out to them that, in fact, "there is no stupid question"
and that they should do at least the following (in this order):
- Look at the existing FreeBSD documentation.
- Ask me for pointers to the existing documentation.
- Look at the documentation again.
- Search Google.
- Search the -questions archives.
- Post to -questions if all else fails.
They always feel thankful for at least having a clear 6-step plan for
troubleshooting.
THIS is what a newbie needs most of the time. Not the real details of
setting up a firewall with PF or IPFILTER, not all the gory details of
IP routing and network address translation, not even the delicate
instructions for editing `inetd.conf' or even `rc.conf'. Most of the
time, the newbies I've had to deal with have questions that they don't
know what to do about. All they need is a pointer towards the docs or
just a friendly pat in the back and a couple of kind words: "Oh, that's
ok. You should read the manpage of `inetd.conf'. If you need more help
with that, post to -questions, since I haven't ever tinkered with FOOBAR
services myself".
I think that -newbies should not provide technical answers, detailed and
fancy as -questions. But it may make a huge difference, when people
don't know what to do about some problem they have, by providing exactly
this sort of guidance: a mini summary of what can and should be done.
The rest of the time, we can brag about our accomplishments as usual
(which, admittedly, happens very rarely these days) :-)
- Giorgos
David Adam
> >redundant. One nitpicky thing - although punctuation rules say it's
> >technically correct to use a comma before the last item in a series,
> >that is archaic usage, and the most commonly accepted modern rule is to
> >ideas and moral support." It's not that big of a deal, but it's better
> >to use accepted punctuation rules, and, besides, if it ends up the
> >other way it's going to drive me crazy. Sorry, but I was raised by a
> >mom who's an English teacher ...
> >
> >- jt
> >
> My college English teacher said it was only ok for news papers to leave
> it off so they could save space.
Ahh, the old Oxford (or serial) comma...
Nikolas, your college English teacher was right. You should leave the
third comma in there. The FreeBSD Documentation Project says so :-)
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/fdp-primer/writing-style.html
"Use the serial comma
In a list of items within a paragraph, separate each item from the
others with a comma. Separate the last item from the others with a comma
and the word ``and''."
Remember, for fun and games with grammar, you can always join
freebsd-doc@!
(And incidentally, this is fast going OT...)
Cheers,
David Adam
zan...@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au
"Second-year MBBS... so that means you can cure 1/6th of all diseases?"
Nikolas Britton
I think I understand why they are overwhelmed now. There not using
message filters, everything is just flowing into there main inbox (as
well as there normal email), This would overwhelm me too.