[discuss] OpenClipart.org and Freedesktop
Chad
I am starting a new thread because I wanted to address items from
several emails spread out over the old thread, and some that are not
even on the list.
First of all, there is another project on Freedesktop
(http://clipart.freedesktop.org/) that is a little further along than we
are, but not too much. Their aim is similar to ours, but not exactly
the same. Combining our efforts would not be a bad idea, except for the
fact that OOo does not import SVG graphics. They want to use SVG as
their standard format. That causes a problem for us. Now, if OOo
started supporting SVG natively (not with a macro or conversion tool),
then there would be absolutely no reason to duplicate projects. But as
it stands now, I believe there is still one.
While SVG may be widely used in the open source world, is a long way off
from being a standard. In fact, before we started talking about this,
the only time I had ever heard of SVG is when people complained that OOo
couldn't use it. And those complaints were rare.
Now, I have had a discussion with someone from freedesktop.org and they
seem pretty set on the SVG idea. At best, they are willing to include
some other format, (BMP), but the focus would be on SVG, rendering (no
pun intended) the majority of their clipart useless to us.
A few things we need to address.
One, do we still want to start a new project?
Two, what formats can OOo use for clipart, and what would be the best
format to use as our standard? - Remember, we want this clipart
available for others to use as well.
Three, what can we be doing _right now_ as those things are being decided?
My answer to question one is - Yes. I don't consider this forking or
needless duplicating projects, because their are other programs than OOo
that can't use SVG but could still use free and open clipart. Also
people who may still be stuck in MS land can use our clipart for their
websites, projects, homework, etc. Regardless of if they in the open
source community yet or not. I see this project as another bridge for
Windows users to cross into the Open Source world.
My answer to two is: I don't have a clue. People smarter than me need
to answer that one.
My answer to three is: Start gathering clipart! Regardless of if we
end up making our own project or just helping out with freedesktop's,
the clipart can and will be used. We have to make sure, though, that we
aren't stealing the works. I mean, if we wanted to just compile a bunch
of stolen clipart, give me an hour and I'll have 5000 images for you.
In the other thread, someone asked "What can N-L do to help on this
project?"
My answer - get or make clipart. -(PLEASE read this part, even if you
aren't in N-L. Thanks!)-
Most clipart will be nearly universal. A tree is a tree no matter what
language you speak. Same thing with arrows, sunsets, and other basic
things. So feel free to contribute those types of things. But don't
feel limited to just "universal" entries.
I would love to have the N-L help with making sure that the clipart we
use is applicable around the world. I mean, as was the case with a
batch of clipart we had before, some art may be offensive to different
cultures, and we don't want that.
However, I believe some moderation has to be in place in that as well.
For example, the Nazi flag is not only offensive, but illegal in some
places - we shouldn't allow it. On the other hand, some people hate the
United States, and therefore including the US flag might offend some
people. I don't think that is a reason to kick it out. It will be a
pretty poor collection if we exclude everything that "might" offend
someone. But we should still be sensitive.
N-L can help bring different culture's art and flare into the project.
For example, someone from the Chinese project could contribute a set of
symbols for the Chinese Years. Someone from the Hebrew project could
include symbols of the Jewish faith. Someone from the Russian project
could include art based on the nesting dolls. I think that we should be
sensitive by way of *Inclusion* instead of *Exclusion*. Meaning, we
focus more on how to include as many cultures as possible than trying to
silence all the different voices we have. I see space for a Crescent
moon, a Four-leaf Clover, the Star of David, the Olympic Rings, a Cross,
a Pizza, and the Stars and Stripes - all of them in our project. But
that is just my opinion.
Finally, if we decide to include clipart that has letters or words in it
(and it's going to be hard to avoid that for long), N-L can help by
translating those words, and making clipart based on the language(s)
that they are working on.
Translation of symbols could help too. I, as an American, associate
things one way. A rounded yellow capital "M" makes me hungry.
Especially if it is underlined in red. The reason is simple,
McDonald's! Now, that restaurant is much more universal than most
restaurants, but perhaps it's not completely recognized. I'm not
suggesting we include branded images, or trademarks, that was just an
example. Another example is a stop sign. If I see a red octagon, I
think "Stop!" I don't know if that translates worldwide. A football
is one thing to me, and another to someone in England - and we speak
(sorta) the same language! So N-L could greatly help in that area, even
if your artistic or computer design skills are like mine - missing. :)
There are lots of ways that N-L and EVERYONE can get involved.
We just need to figure out if we are actually going to do this or not.
-Chad Smith
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CPH
> Hello.
>
> I am starting a new thread because I wanted to address items from
> several emails spread out over the old thread, and some that are not
> even on the list.
>
> First of all, there is another project on Freedesktop
> (http://clipart.freedesktop.org/) that is a little further along than we
> are, but not too much. Their aim is similar to ours, but not exactly
> the same. Combining our efforts would not be a bad idea, except for the
> fact that OOo does not import SVG graphics.
Also I think that if the quality icons will be available in SVG format then we
have 1 temporary workaround for OOo - converting the SVGs to PNG or any other
format so that they will be usable now.
However I think that if there are enough good quality SVG icons available we
will encourage an XML/XSLT expert to help us by writing the appropriate
transform.
> They want to use SVG as
> their standard format. That causes a problem for us. Now, if OOo
> started supporting SVG natively (not with a macro or conversion tool),
> then there would be absolutely no reason to duplicate projects. But as
> it stands now, I believe there is still one.
>
> While SVG may be widely used in the open source world, is a long way off
> from being a standard.
Actually it is : http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/ but it is not widely used yet.
> In fact, before we started talking about this,
> the only time I had ever heard of SVG is when people complained that OOo
> couldn't use it. And those complaints were rare.
SVG is definitely the superior format and should be used as it is a scalable
format whereas most graphics formats generally are not.
> Now, I have had a discussion with someone from freedesktop.org and they
> seem pretty set on the SVG idea. At best, they are willing to include
> some other format, (BMP), but the focus would be on SVG, rendering (no
> pun intended) the majority of their clipart useless to us.
>
> A few things we need to address.
>
> One, do we still want to start a new project?
No, lets combine efforts.
> Two, what formats can OOo use for clipart, and what would be the best
> format to use as our standard? - Remember, we want this clipart
> available for others to use as well.
Currently we need a graphic format like png, gif, jpeg.
However as a compromise we should be able to take SVGs and convert then to a
usable format for OOo. The conversion can be done by a tool like the GIMP.
> Three, what can we be doing _right now_ as those things are being decided?
Comtribute to freedesktop.org as they can take and improve anything we have -
their license should be liberal enough that if we want to rework those images
and take another route then that is possible (although undesirable).
--
CPH : openoffice.org volunteer
Maybe your question has been answered already?
http://user-faq.openoffice.org/#FAQ
Also please reply *only* to us...@openoffice.org, as your responses will
be answered more quickly, more correctly, and shared to help more people.
fe...@theopencd.net
> > A few things we need to address.
> >
> > One, do we still want to start a new project?
> No, lets combine efforts.
Since CPH is veteran OSS developer, I decided to
check the possibility to combine our efforts.
Maybe we can use 2 names to address single server.
(freedesktop and openclipart)
I have sent them an eMail:
The Open Clipart project is just about to begin.
There have been some talks around about possible union of the efforts.
But for this to happen, this project must be improved.
I have a few questions to you, guys:
-Can we make the web page more useful/beautyful?
-Can we add a forum to the web page?
-Will we use PNGs/JPGs if required?
-If I build clipart collection for OOo, can we put it here?
-If I build clipart collection for MS Office, can we put it here?
-Fenix*NBK*
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M. Fioretti
> Hello.
>
> I am starting a new thread because I wanted to address items from
> several emails spread out over the old thread, and some that are not
> even on the list.
>
> First of all, there is another project on Freedesktop
> (http://clipart.freedesktop.org/) that is a little further along
> than we are, but not too much. Their aim is similar to ours, but
> not exactly the same. Combining our efforts would not be a bad
> idea, except for the fact that OOo does not import SVG graphics.
> for us. Now, if OOo started supporting SVG natively (not with a
> macro or conversion tool), then there would be absolutely no reason
> to duplicate projects. But as it stands now, I believe there is
> still one.
Technically, nothing would prevent the deployment of a web spider that
browses all the time freedesktop.org, downloads all new SVG icons to
openclipart, and converts them to jpg or everything else. Fully
automated, let's people free to choose how and where to submit icons,
etc...
Ciao,
Marco Fioretti
--
Marco Fioretti m.fioretti, at the server inwind.it
Red Hat for low memory http://www.rule-project.org/en/
A good man is intelligent, and a bad man is also an idiot. Moral and
intellectual characteristics go together - Jorge Luis Borges
Ian Lynch
> On Saturday 10 April 2004 00:09, Chad wrote:
> > Hello.
> >
> > I am starting a new thread because I wanted to address items from
> > several emails spread out over the old thread, and some that are not
> > even on the list.
> >
> > First of all, there is another project on Freedesktop
> > (http://clipart.freedesktop.org/) that is a little further along than we
> > are, but not too much. Their aim is similar to ours, but not exactly
> > the same. Combining our efforts would not be a bad idea, except for the
> > fact that OOo does not import SVG graphics.
> Also I think that if the quality icons will be available in SVG format then we
> have 1 temporary workaround for OOo - converting the SVGs to PNG or any other
> format so that they will be usable now.
>
> However I think that if there are enough good quality SVG icons available we
> will encourage an XML/XSLT expert to help us by writing the appropriate
> transform.
I think this is essential. One of the real weaknesses in the IT world in
general is the lack of a standard for vector graphics. It was something
Acorn did well with the Acorn !Draw format and it opened up many
possibilities eg saving say a spreadsheet selection as a vector and
embedding it in a DTP application with infinite scalability without loss
of resolution, ability to rotate etc. For publishing, bitmaps really are
a poor alternative to vectors. A great strength of OO.o is a vector
drawing program. If its crippled by lack of decent import facilities for
vectors other than wmf its a serious disadvantage. IIRC wmf is not
actually a very good format using straight line approximations. Bezier
curves are much better.
If we are looking for things that make OO.o stand out compared to other
Office suites this is a possibility. I can get schools to install OO.o
simply in order to use the drawing program but that will be a lot more
powerful if SVG is supported for import.
--
Ian Lynch <ian....@zmsl.com>
ZMS Ltd
Daniel Carrera
Glad you started this thread.
<snip: clipart.freedesktop.org />
> They want to use SVG as their standard format. That causes a problem
> for us. Now, if OOo started supporting SVG natively (not with a macro
> or conversion tool), then there would be absolutely no reason to duplicate
> projects. But as it stands now, I believe there is still one.
Using SVG for clipart is a sound technical decision. It is the ideal format
for clipart. If you use a raster format, you will significantly limit the
usefullness of the clipart. The images will not be useful for professional
print, or banners, and they will be very difficult to edit. If SVG is used,
it would be much easier for someone to grab an existing image and modify it
to create new images.
I should also mention that SVG is the W3C-approved standard for vector
graphics. Using SVG is important to promote that standard.
OOo does not have SVG import right now, but some day it will. If the
clipart is done in SVG, we will encourage people to create SVG import for OOo.
> Now, I have had a discussion with someone from freedesktop.org and they
> seem pretty set on the SVG idea. At best, they are willing to include
> some other format, (BMP), but the focus would be on SVG,
The freedesktop people look like an intelligent group. Yes, that was the
right decision.
You said they're wiling to include some other format. Ask them if they
would be willing to host a PNG version of all their SVG imgages. If so,
this would be the best of both worlds. You can find a volunteer (e.g. you
and Fenix) whose job would be to grab the SVG images submited to
Freedesktop, turn them into PNGs, and upload them to the PNG directory.
> One, do we still want to start a new project?
I suggest asking the freedesktop preople if they'd be willing to have a PNG
directory with PNG versions of the SVG images. Make it clear to them that
you don't expect them to put in the work to actuall make the conversion.
That you will find another volunteer willing to make those conversions.
It is important that:
* They not feel like they have more work put on them.
* The focus remain on SVG.
> Two, what formats can OOo use for clipart, and what would be the best
> format to use as our standard? - Remember, we want this clipart
> available for others to use as well.
PNG is best. It is a very popular, high-quality and completley open file
format. It's only drawback is that it is a raster format instead of vector
graphics. That's why it should take a secondary role to SVG.
> Three, what can we be doing _right now_ as those things are being decided?
I don't understand your question. We are discussing ideas. This is what I
feel the next steps should be (in order):
1) Ask the Freedesktop people about having PNG directory.
2) Ask them for commit access to the PNG directory.
3) Look for open source images IN THE SVG FORMAT to add to Freedesktop.
Doing this will win you a few friends in the Freedesktop project and
reduce the possibility of antagonism. At the same time, make PNG versions
of the same images (I don't know how though).
Don't worry about the clipart installing program I'm working on. I can grab
images from freedesktop.org just as well as from any other server.
Cheers,
Daniel.