mail-jewish Vol.65 #94 Digest
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Oct 7, 2022, 7:43:35 AM10/7/22
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Volume 65 Number 94
Produced: Fri, 07 Oct 22 07:43:33 -0400
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Coughing and Sneezing
[Carl Singer]
Eating at other people' homes
[Joel Rich]
Eivah/Shalom
[Joel Rich]
Geography or Halacha?
[Yisrael Medad]
Minhagei ta'ut? (2)
[Martin Stern Joseph Kaplan]
Some machzor discrepancies
[Martin Stern]
Something to think about before Yom Kippur
[Joseph Kaplan]
Torah Reading on a Taanit Tzibbur (2)
[Martin Stern Yisrael Medad]
What is D'Oraita?
[Yisrael Medad]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Carl Singer <carl....@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Oct 6,2022 at 06:17 AM
Subject: Coughing and Sneezing
WHERE IS THE HETER TO GO TO SHUL WHEN YOU ARE COUGHING AND/OR SNEEZING?
1. This question is not Covid related,
2. I am aware of non-contagious situations that may manifest with coughing
and/or sneezing -- for example allergies.
Medical professionals if you wish to go on a tangential discussion try The
Lancet or the New England Journal ....
3. On Rosh Hashanah, and on Shabbos Shuvah when many from other congregations
join us for the Rabbi's droshah, we were crowded with many coughing / sneezing.
4. Perhaps a good metric would be the number of tissues consumed - or the
number of people consuming tissues.
5. On Yom Kippur since I was now coughing and sneezing I davened at home.
(Yes, I am one of the few who still wears a mask in shul.)
6. The chazan was MAGNIFICENT. He used all of the old tunes that I remembered
from my childhood / younger days.
7. My Great-Grandfather, "Froim Chazan", a Ger Chosid, was smiling down on me.
8. Kusevitsky was rolling over in his grave.
Wishing all a Happy & Healthy New Year.
*Carl A. Singer, Ph.D.Colonel, U.S. Army Retired*
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joel Rich <joeli...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Oct 3,2022 at 09:17 PM
Subject: Eating at other people' homes
What is your pulpit rabbis policy concerning eating at his parishioners homes?
What halachic considerations should go into such a policy?
GT
Joel Rich
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joel Rich <joeli...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Oct 6,2022 at 06:17 PM
Subject: Eivah/Shalom
Is anyone aware of any detailed analysis comparing the concepts of 'mishum eivah'
and 'darkei shalom'?
GT
Joel Rich
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Yisrael Medad <yisrae...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Oct 3,2022 at 03:17 PM
Subject: Geography or Halacha?
In his Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Shevitat Asor (1:3), the Rambam writes:
"It is permitted to trim a vegetable on the day of Yom Kippur from mid-afternoon
onward. What is meant by trimming a vegetable? To remove the wilted leaves, and
to cut the others [off] to prepare them for consumption [the after-fast meal].
Similarly, it is permitted to crack open nuts and to open pomegranates on Yom
Kippur from mid-afternoon onward. [These leniencies were granted] so that one
will not endure hardship [of waiting too long at the end of the fast]. When Yom
Kippur falls on the Sabbath, it is forbidden to trim vegetables and open nuts
and pomegranates the entire day. It has already become the universally accepted
custom in Babylon and in North Africa not to perform these activities during the
fast."
To my understanding, the difference in custom, at least at his time, seems to be
explained less on a Halachic analysis, which is not thrashed out or even pithily
stated, and more simply on where one lived.
Anyone know of any similar issues?
What would be the reason for the more stringent approach in Europe?
--
Yisrael Medad
Shiloh
Israel
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin Stern <md.s...@ntlworld.com>
Date: Sun, Oct 2,2022 at 06:17 AM
Subject: Minhagei ta'ut?
Michael Poppers wrote (MJ 65#93):
> Martin Stern wrote (MJ 65#92):
>
>> In the Altona machzor, it has "kol teru'ateinu" after the malkhiyot and "kol
>> teki'ateinu" after the zikhronot and shofarot.
>
> Ditto the Roedelheim machzor.
I checked in my wife's late grandfather's copy of the 1832 edition and also
found this. I then looked at her late grandmother's copy of the machzor with R.
Michael Sachs' German translation of 1898 (23rd printing, Breslau) and found the
same.
On the principle that copyists tend to 'smooth out' textual discrepancies, it
looks as if the original text was "kol teru'ateinu" after malkhiyot and so the
problem to be answered is why it should differ from the others. I suggested:
>> it might just be intentional and refer to the verse "Lo hibit ... Hashem
>> Elokav imo UTRU'AT MELEKH bo" (Bam.23:21), included in the malkhiyot
>> selection.
Has anyone come across any support for my conjecture?
Martin Stern
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joseph Kaplan <pen...@panix.com>
Date: Mon, Oct 3,2022 at 09:17 AM
Subject: Minhagei ta'ut?
One does not have to be a great talmid chacham or an expert in Hebrew poetry or
liturgy to realize that the way the vast majority of Orthodox shuls recite the
piyuttim on RH and YK does not seem to be the way they are written, as Martin
Stern points out (MJ 75#92). In fact I am far from either of those categories
- incredibly far - and I realized that decades ago as a teenager.
But I've also noticed something else in davening in many Orthodox shuls over the
decades in which many people who actual were great talmidim chachamim and
experts in Hebrew poetry and liturgy also davened and at times even led the
davening. They, knowing much more than me and probably as much as the several
commenters who have derided how the piyuttim are recited and how they tried to
recite them properly, continued to recite them in the way minhag yisrael
apparently has dictated. And I also noticed over the years that while there were
always a few in shul who would make it a point to say the piyuttim the correct
way, they, unsurprisingly, were in my category and not the ones of those who
really know.
I'm not exactly sure what this all means. But one thing it perhaps should mean
is that when we express dissent from minhagei yisrael we should do so with a bit
more modesty and realize that by noting this discrepancy we have not discovered
anything new.
Joseph
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin Stern <md.s...@ntlworld.com>
Date: Thu, Oct 6,2022 at 02:17 PM
Subject: Some machzor discrepancies
After Yom Kippur, one of my sons asked if I knew why certain passages after
kedushah in the machzor (Minhag Ashkenaz) were in differing orders in
shacharit, mussaf and minchah:
A) Chamol al ma'aasekha ...
B) B'ein meilitz yosher ...
C) Od yizkor lanu ...
D) Uvekhein yitkadash shimkha ...
E) Tusgav levadekha ...
The above is the order in shacharit and minchah, whereas in mussaf (also on Rosh
Hashanah) they are in the order:
A D C B E
One suggestion was that the piyut "Ha'ocheiz be yad midat mishpat, vekhol
ma'aminim ... " is inserted before E and whoever arranged the machzor wanted to
use the section B which ends "Vetzadekeinu bamishpat Hamelekh Hamishpat" as a
natural lead into it - in fact, the Maharil, rules that the chazan should say
these words without any gap between them and the beginning of that piyut in one
breath.
This would explain why B is pushed forward but does not explain why D and C are
reversed.
Does anyone know whether this is really the reason for the change or, if not, a
different, or additional, one.
Also my wife noticed that the Imru Lelokim piyut in musaf has the alef-bet
acrostic from alef to yod and then jumps to tav, unlike the one in shacharit
which has the complete alef-bet sequence (both the accompanying Ma'asei Elokeinu
piyutim do have the complete acrostic). Can anyone throw any light on this?
Martin Stern
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joseph Kaplan <pen...@panix.com>
Date: Mon, Oct 3,2022 at 10:17 AM
Subject: Something to think about before Yom Kippur
I wish Ari Tractenberg's understanding of the Akeidah (MJ 65#93) "that Abraham
failed the test" was the correct one. It would solve many, though not all, of
the problems in that story. Unfortunately, the Angel of God who stayed Abraham's
hand appears to disagree and said nothing about failing the test.
Rather: "For now I know that you fear God, since you did not withhold from me
your son, your only one" and then blessed Abraham because he obeyed God's command.
Doesn't sound like failure to me.
Joeeph
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin Stern <md.s...@ntlworld.com>
Date: Sat, Oct 1,2022 at 04:17 PM
Subject: Torah Reading on a Taanit Tzibbur
David Olivestone wrote (MJ 65#93):
> At minchah on Tzom Gedaliah I was given the third aliyah (which includes
> reading the haftarah). The Torah reading includes two instances where the
> congregants say some phrases aloud before the baal keriyah (Torah reader)
> reads them. Was I supposed to say them with the congregants or wait to read
> them along with the baal keriyah?
Originally the oleh would read the whole parashah himself but, so as to avoid
embarrassing those unable to do so, we now employ the baal keriyah to read it for
him. Strictly speaking, the oleh should read it together with him in an
undertone if he is able. Therefore I would think that he should also pause
together with the baal keriyah while the congregation says those phrases.
Martin Stern
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Yisrael Medad <yisrae...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Oct 3,2022 at 03:17 PM
Subject: Torah Reading on a Taanit Tzibbur
In response to David Olivestone (MJ 65#93):
What was done during the first aliyah?
--
Yisrael Medad
Shiloh
Israel
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Yisrael Medad <yisrae...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Oct 3,2022 at 03:17 PM
Subject: What is D'Oraita?
Despite my desire to discontinue the discussion I began, since Elazar asks two
direct questions of me (MJ 65#93), let me be clear: it was not my intention to
claim conversion is not a Torah-based concept or any other phraseology one can
choose.
I simply meant to point to an extremely important element in Jewish life -
accepting non-Jews into the community - which has been Halachically treated for
over 2000 years and appears in Tanach but not in the "Five Books of Moses"
whereas many other, what I would consider less important commandments are not
only stated but additional performance details are added. And I asked why.
C'est tout. I did not, in relation to other mitzvot, contend "that these
particulars, too, are not d'Oraita?" And I did not "contend that the prohibition
to do so is not d'Oraita?" I am perplexed and non-plussed as to why those people
asking these types of questions are doing so. Since all are well-read and
knowledgeable I can only assume it was my fault for not properly being clear
enough. Mea culpa. My fault. Forgive me.
--
Yisrael Medad
Shiloh
Israel
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Send submissions/responses for Mail-Jewish to:
m...@mj.bu.edu
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and request an invitation.
Information about the Mail-Jewish mailing list, its policies,
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Prior issues (through Volume 63) are available for on-line viewing at:
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while Volume 64 and subsequent issues are available at
https://groups.google.com/g/mail-jewish
End of mail-jewish Digest
**************************
--------
Volume 65 Number 94
Produced: Fri, 07 Oct 22 07:43:33 -0400
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Coughing and Sneezing
[Carl Singer]
Eating at other people' homes
[Joel Rich]
Eivah/Shalom
[Joel Rich]
Geography or Halacha?
[Yisrael Medad]
Minhagei ta'ut? (2)
[Martin Stern Joseph Kaplan]
Some machzor discrepancies
[Martin Stern]
Something to think about before Yom Kippur
[Joseph Kaplan]
Torah Reading on a Taanit Tzibbur (2)
[Martin Stern Yisrael Medad]
What is D'Oraita?
[Yisrael Medad]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Carl Singer <carl....@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Oct 6,2022 at 06:17 AM
Subject: Coughing and Sneezing
WHERE IS THE HETER TO GO TO SHUL WHEN YOU ARE COUGHING AND/OR SNEEZING?
1. This question is not Covid related,
2. I am aware of non-contagious situations that may manifest with coughing
and/or sneezing -- for example allergies.
Medical professionals if you wish to go on a tangential discussion try The
Lancet or the New England Journal ....
3. On Rosh Hashanah, and on Shabbos Shuvah when many from other congregations
join us for the Rabbi's droshah, we were crowded with many coughing / sneezing.
4. Perhaps a good metric would be the number of tissues consumed - or the
number of people consuming tissues.
5. On Yom Kippur since I was now coughing and sneezing I davened at home.
(Yes, I am one of the few who still wears a mask in shul.)
6. The chazan was MAGNIFICENT. He used all of the old tunes that I remembered
from my childhood / younger days.
7. My Great-Grandfather, "Froim Chazan", a Ger Chosid, was smiling down on me.
8. Kusevitsky was rolling over in his grave.
Wishing all a Happy & Healthy New Year.
*Carl A. Singer, Ph.D.Colonel, U.S. Army Retired*
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joel Rich <joeli...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Oct 3,2022 at 09:17 PM
Subject: Eating at other people' homes
What is your pulpit rabbis policy concerning eating at his parishioners homes?
What halachic considerations should go into such a policy?
GT
Joel Rich
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joel Rich <joeli...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Oct 6,2022 at 06:17 PM
Subject: Eivah/Shalom
Is anyone aware of any detailed analysis comparing the concepts of 'mishum eivah'
and 'darkei shalom'?
GT
Joel Rich
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Yisrael Medad <yisrae...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Oct 3,2022 at 03:17 PM
Subject: Geography or Halacha?
In his Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Shevitat Asor (1:3), the Rambam writes:
"It is permitted to trim a vegetable on the day of Yom Kippur from mid-afternoon
onward. What is meant by trimming a vegetable? To remove the wilted leaves, and
to cut the others [off] to prepare them for consumption [the after-fast meal].
Similarly, it is permitted to crack open nuts and to open pomegranates on Yom
Kippur from mid-afternoon onward. [These leniencies were granted] so that one
will not endure hardship [of waiting too long at the end of the fast]. When Yom
Kippur falls on the Sabbath, it is forbidden to trim vegetables and open nuts
and pomegranates the entire day. It has already become the universally accepted
custom in Babylon and in North Africa not to perform these activities during the
fast."
To my understanding, the difference in custom, at least at his time, seems to be
explained less on a Halachic analysis, which is not thrashed out or even pithily
stated, and more simply on where one lived.
Anyone know of any similar issues?
What would be the reason for the more stringent approach in Europe?
--
Yisrael Medad
Shiloh
Israel
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin Stern <md.s...@ntlworld.com>
Date: Sun, Oct 2,2022 at 06:17 AM
Subject: Minhagei ta'ut?
Michael Poppers wrote (MJ 65#93):
> Martin Stern wrote (MJ 65#92):
>
>> In the Altona machzor, it has "kol teru'ateinu" after the malkhiyot and "kol
>> teki'ateinu" after the zikhronot and shofarot.
>
> Ditto the Roedelheim machzor.
I checked in my wife's late grandfather's copy of the 1832 edition and also
found this. I then looked at her late grandmother's copy of the machzor with R.
Michael Sachs' German translation of 1898 (23rd printing, Breslau) and found the
same.
On the principle that copyists tend to 'smooth out' textual discrepancies, it
looks as if the original text was "kol teru'ateinu" after malkhiyot and so the
problem to be answered is why it should differ from the others. I suggested:
>> it might just be intentional and refer to the verse "Lo hibit ... Hashem
>> Elokav imo UTRU'AT MELEKH bo" (Bam.23:21), included in the malkhiyot
>> selection.
Has anyone come across any support for my conjecture?
Martin Stern
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joseph Kaplan <pen...@panix.com>
Date: Mon, Oct 3,2022 at 09:17 AM
Subject: Minhagei ta'ut?
One does not have to be a great talmid chacham or an expert in Hebrew poetry or
liturgy to realize that the way the vast majority of Orthodox shuls recite the
piyuttim on RH and YK does not seem to be the way they are written, as Martin
Stern points out (MJ 75#92). In fact I am far from either of those categories
- incredibly far - and I realized that decades ago as a teenager.
But I've also noticed something else in davening in many Orthodox shuls over the
decades in which many people who actual were great talmidim chachamim and
experts in Hebrew poetry and liturgy also davened and at times even led the
davening. They, knowing much more than me and probably as much as the several
commenters who have derided how the piyuttim are recited and how they tried to
recite them properly, continued to recite them in the way minhag yisrael
apparently has dictated. And I also noticed over the years that while there were
always a few in shul who would make it a point to say the piyuttim the correct
way, they, unsurprisingly, were in my category and not the ones of those who
really know.
I'm not exactly sure what this all means. But one thing it perhaps should mean
is that when we express dissent from minhagei yisrael we should do so with a bit
more modesty and realize that by noting this discrepancy we have not discovered
anything new.
Joseph
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin Stern <md.s...@ntlworld.com>
Date: Thu, Oct 6,2022 at 02:17 PM
Subject: Some machzor discrepancies
After Yom Kippur, one of my sons asked if I knew why certain passages after
kedushah in the machzor (Minhag Ashkenaz) were in differing orders in
shacharit, mussaf and minchah:
A) Chamol al ma'aasekha ...
B) B'ein meilitz yosher ...
C) Od yizkor lanu ...
D) Uvekhein yitkadash shimkha ...
E) Tusgav levadekha ...
The above is the order in shacharit and minchah, whereas in mussaf (also on Rosh
Hashanah) they are in the order:
A D C B E
One suggestion was that the piyut "Ha'ocheiz be yad midat mishpat, vekhol
ma'aminim ... " is inserted before E and whoever arranged the machzor wanted to
use the section B which ends "Vetzadekeinu bamishpat Hamelekh Hamishpat" as a
natural lead into it - in fact, the Maharil, rules that the chazan should say
these words without any gap between them and the beginning of that piyut in one
breath.
This would explain why B is pushed forward but does not explain why D and C are
reversed.
Does anyone know whether this is really the reason for the change or, if not, a
different, or additional, one.
Also my wife noticed that the Imru Lelokim piyut in musaf has the alef-bet
acrostic from alef to yod and then jumps to tav, unlike the one in shacharit
which has the complete alef-bet sequence (both the accompanying Ma'asei Elokeinu
piyutim do have the complete acrostic). Can anyone throw any light on this?
Martin Stern
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joseph Kaplan <pen...@panix.com>
Date: Mon, Oct 3,2022 at 10:17 AM
Subject: Something to think about before Yom Kippur
I wish Ari Tractenberg's understanding of the Akeidah (MJ 65#93) "that Abraham
failed the test" was the correct one. It would solve many, though not all, of
the problems in that story. Unfortunately, the Angel of God who stayed Abraham's
hand appears to disagree and said nothing about failing the test.
Rather: "For now I know that you fear God, since you did not withhold from me
your son, your only one" and then blessed Abraham because he obeyed God's command.
Doesn't sound like failure to me.
Joeeph
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin Stern <md.s...@ntlworld.com>
Date: Sat, Oct 1,2022 at 04:17 PM
Subject: Torah Reading on a Taanit Tzibbur
David Olivestone wrote (MJ 65#93):
> At minchah on Tzom Gedaliah I was given the third aliyah (which includes
> reading the haftarah). The Torah reading includes two instances where the
> congregants say some phrases aloud before the baal keriyah (Torah reader)
> reads them. Was I supposed to say them with the congregants or wait to read
> them along with the baal keriyah?
Originally the oleh would read the whole parashah himself but, so as to avoid
embarrassing those unable to do so, we now employ the baal keriyah to read it for
him. Strictly speaking, the oleh should read it together with him in an
undertone if he is able. Therefore I would think that he should also pause
together with the baal keriyah while the congregation says those phrases.
Martin Stern
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Yisrael Medad <yisrae...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Oct 3,2022 at 03:17 PM
Subject: Torah Reading on a Taanit Tzibbur
In response to David Olivestone (MJ 65#93):
What was done during the first aliyah?
--
Yisrael Medad
Shiloh
Israel
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Yisrael Medad <yisrae...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Oct 3,2022 at 03:17 PM
Subject: What is D'Oraita?
Despite my desire to discontinue the discussion I began, since Elazar asks two
direct questions of me (MJ 65#93), let me be clear: it was not my intention to
claim conversion is not a Torah-based concept or any other phraseology one can
choose.
I simply meant to point to an extremely important element in Jewish life -
accepting non-Jews into the community - which has been Halachically treated for
over 2000 years and appears in Tanach but not in the "Five Books of Moses"
whereas many other, what I would consider less important commandments are not
only stated but additional performance details are added. And I asked why.
C'est tout. I did not, in relation to other mitzvot, contend "that these
particulars, too, are not d'Oraita?" And I did not "contend that the prohibition
to do so is not d'Oraita?" I am perplexed and non-plussed as to why those people
asking these types of questions are doing so. Since all are well-read and
knowledgeable I can only assume it was my fault for not properly being clear
enough. Mea culpa. My fault. Forgive me.
--
Yisrael Medad
Shiloh
Israel
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Send submissions/responses for Mail-Jewish to:
m...@mj.bu.edu
If you are reading this in a paper version and would like to subscribe
electronically, please visit https://groups.google.com/g/mail-jewish
and request an invitation.
Information about the Mail-Jewish mailing list, its policies,
ground rules, and submission process, can be found on the
Mail-Jewish Home Page: http://mj.bu.edu
Prior issues (through Volume 63) are available for on-line viewing at:
http://www.emax.ca/mj_ht_arch/index.html
while Volume 64 and subsequent issues are available at
https://groups.google.com/g/mail-jewish
End of mail-jewish Digest
**************************
--------
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