mail-jewish Vol.66 #37 Digest

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Volume 66 Number 37
Produced: Wed, 17 May 23 15:31:47 -0400


Subjects Discussed In This Issue:

AI
[Joel Rich]
Bracha rishona (2)
[Chaim Casper Alexander Seinfeld]
First to minyan?
[Joel Rich]
Gedolim
[Joel Rich]
Halachic derivation rules
[Joel Rich]
Mesora?
[Joel Rich]
Nusach hatfila
[Joel Rich]
Red heifer
[Joel Rich]
Sfira bracha
[Joel Rich]
Shower shiur
[Joel Rich]



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From: Joel Rich <joeli...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, May 16,2023 at 11:17 PM
Subject: AI

I was going to write a letter to Jewish Action concerning the artificial
intelligence section, but realized it would be long enough for an article, for
which I have no credentials. I just wanted to share two thoughts for your
consideration

There is certainly a permanent spiritual argument that artificial intelligence
could never becoming a poseik. In short, it would not have siyata dshmaya.
However, the arguments of not having shimush or a mesora seem to me to be more
short-term practical arguments. They seem to be based on the fact that AI has no
access to this data because it is not part of the written corpus. That is true,
but the data is being transmitted from generation to generation somehow, and so,
in theory, it could be transmitted to the AI as well.

It seems this is a subset of the great debate in the outside world concerning
creativity, the hard problem of consciousness (and what it's like to be a bat),
the existence of free will, and can AI have consciousness without a body or be
sentient. (The creativity issue is an interesting one, because from what I
understand, alpha go revealed strategies which humans hadn't discovered).
Perhaps the challenge is to either develop objective external measures which we
can use to settle these debates (the Turing test seems to have fallen by the
wayside) or to simply say these debates cant be settled (non-overlapping
magisteria or something like that). It seems to me that at some point klal
yisrael will paskin (similarly to Rabbi Google)

Thoughts?

Kt

Joel Rich

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From: Chaim Casper <in...@surfflorist.com>
Date: Sun, Apr 2,2023 at 09:17 PM
Subject: Bracha rishona

Joel Rich (MJ 66#35) asks:

> If a society always eats dessert as part of a meal, do they make a bracha
> rishona on the dessert before birchat hamazon?

The Biur Halakhah (aka, the scholarly version of the Mishneh Brurah) on this
question concludes with the Rashba that safek brakhot l'hakel (i.e. in questions
of making a brakhah, if in doubt, do without). He does not require a brakhah be
said over dessert.

The Arukh Hashulhan points out that in the time of the gemara, everyone ate from
their own trays. When the food on the tray was finished, the tray would be taken
away and that would be the end of the meal. So, if someone brought extra food to
the table, it would require an extra brakhah (i.e. "bracha rishona") as it was
not part of the meal. Nowadays, we don't have these trays, so all the food
brought to the table is part of the meal and hence does not need an additional
brakhah. So, he, too, does not require a brakhah be said over dessert.

At least according to these two poskim (final halakhic deciders), no "bracha
rishona" is needed.

As a follow up note, this is a discussion I have had with one of my sons without
much success. He insists on making a "bracha rishona" whenever dessert is served!

B'virkat Torah,
Chaim Casper
North Miami Beach, FL
Neve Mikhael, Israel

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From: Alexander Seinfeld <sein...@jsli.org>
Date: Sun, Apr 2,2023 at 10:17 PM
Subject: Bracha rishona

Micha Berger wrote (MJ 66#36):

> Joel Rich wrote (MJ 66#35):
>
>> If a society always eats dessert as part of a meal, do they make a bracha
>> rishona on the dessert before birchat hamazon?
>
> You've hit a trigger for me. Because I am still wondering about a more
> fundamental version of the question:
>
> If a society no longer eat the majority of their food by using flatbread as
> "cutlery", why does HaMotzi cover all the foods in the meal that would
> otherwise have gotten other berakhos?
>
> The whole concept of meat being "liftan" is not how we eat today.
>
> The reason why deserts are different is not because they are optional, but
> because they were not typically eaten on bread. Same thing with that fruit you
> had as appetizer. Parperes is only included if you actually do force its
> icludion by eating it on bread. But liftan is included by default based on
> norms.
>
> We altogether aren't qov'in se'udah the way the gemara assumes. So every time
> questions like this one are raised on list, I need to back up the
> conversation a step ...
>
> Tell me how do the rules work nowadays if at all. When do we follow the
> gemara's rulings, and when do we follow the sevara that led to them. Because
> my understanding is that today's metzi'us doesn't get you from that sevara to
> the whole idea of HaMotzi covering core of the meal.
>
> And then I could participate in a search to see how deserts that are a
> taken-for-granted part of the meal should be treated.

Why should liftan mean necessarily eaten in the same bite as the bread? It's
something you eat along with bread. You think they didn't have spoons and only
ate their soup by sopping it up with bread? According to you, even water
wouldn't be covered by Hamotzi. Desserts are different not because they're not
eating on bread but because at that point in the meal most people have ceased
eaten with bread; ergo, if a sweet mezonos-type dish (such as sweet apple kugel)
could go either way, depending on when it's served, while a pure treat (candy or
ice cream) which is never served during the main course would never be covered
by Hamotzi. (For me, sweet kugel is 100% dessert but my family disagree.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joel Rich <joeli...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Apr 4,2023 at 11:17 PM
Subject: First to minyan?

If one has a choice of being one of the first 10 to the minyan or putting on
taalit and tfillin in the entrance hallway of the building that has the shul,
which gets priority?

KT
Joel Rich

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From: Joel Rich <joeli...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Apr 4,2023 at 11:17 PM
Subject: Gedolim

This was posted in the Tzarich Iyun blog:

> 1. When Gedolim speak and the public ignores them, the result is disgrace for
> Torah and its greatest carriers. I assume that this is often a reason for the
> silence of Gedolim. But still, in difficult times, when the entire community
> is confused, we can only look to our Sages for advice, hoping to fulfill the
> Torah instruction You shall do all you are instructed to do. To do so, we
> need instruction. We need to hear the voice of the Torah.
>
> 2. Although our own government does not necessarily provide justice, honesty,
> goodness, and charity, and is certainly not adored by Charedi Jews living
> under its rule, it still provides order, ensures compliance with laws, and
> does much good besides (including massive support of Torah story).
>
> 3. In the meantime, our public cry must continue until we see the whole
> community "fixers", politicians, and even talmidei chachamim and Rabbis joining
> the cause and working to mend that which requires mending in our public life.

There's just so much to discuss on this, but I'll limit myself to these 3 points
I imagine the response might be that if we were to speak out not only would
Torah be defamed by our being ignored but we would also have lost the ability to
make change where it is possible (halacha in practice IMHO is a delicate dance
between the leadership and the community (see R Henkin's hy"d taaroch l'fanai
shulchan on this element of the aruch hashulchan's psak.) In the outside world
personal issues would also be an issue in positions of authority. Who do the
gedolim turn to for help with human blinds spots?

2.We live in a time of public extremes - in practice, either you are unserer or
not. Unfortunately, real life is more nuanced and this is one of the prices paid.

3.In the outside world you hear very similar calls in totalitarian states (e.g.
China, Iran) Perhaps it takes a supermajority of brave folks to bring change


KT
Joel Rich

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From: Joel Rich <joeli...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Apr 14,2023 at 10:17 AM
Subject: Halachic derivation rules

A number of times when the Talmud is ping-ponging back-and-forth trying to
determine the underlying reason for a difference of opinion, it will state that
one of the parties learned a din from a particular textual source, which the
other party did not (lo mishma lei)

These seem to come in a number of different flavors such as a possible extra
letter (e.g. megillah 17b dvarim/hadvarim) or an extra word (eg bava metzia 27b
mimenu).

I was thinking that in other circumstances where such a letter or word appeared,
there is no debate, and the derivation is accepted by all.

I was wondering if anybody had seen anything which indicated that a particular
rabbi tended to (or not to) use such a source as a general rule and/or is it
possible that the decision as to whether to use or not you such a rule was
dependent on what that Rabbi already believed was the pre-existing halacha that
needed to be obtained?

KT
Joel Rich

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From: Joel Rich <joeli...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, May 10,2023 at 12:17 PM
Subject: Mesora?

One of the basic limitations of interpreting ancient text, lies on comprehending
the cultural references. When it comes to the meaning of physical gestures,
biblical interpreters engage in a good deal of speculation, most of which means
unsubstantiated.

This is a footnote in Dr. Yael Zieglers book on Lamentations (Iyov), but to me
it's a comment that reflects our everyday learning of both commentaries on Tanach
and Halacha throughout the generations. When is it a tradition and when is it
intelligent people looking at texts, and making their best guess based on their
total life study and experience?

KT
Joel Rich

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From: Joel Rich <joeli...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, May 2,2023 at 11:17 PM
Subject: Nusach hatfila

Have you ever been in an Ashkenazi synagogue where a Sfardi insisted on saying
Sfardi kaddish on an ongoing basis? If so, what was the rabbi's/gabbai's
response, if any (and why)?

Kt
Joel Rich

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From: Joel Rich <joeli...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Apr 10,2023 at 07:17 AM
Subject: Red heifer

The gemara tells us that the red heifer can be redeemed if one finds another one
which is naah heimena (more pleasing?). Given that the red heifer is not eaten
and the requirements for it seems to be that it is fully red and not used for
any other purpose, how would one define a more pleasing one?

KT
Joel Rich

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From: Joel Rich <joeli...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, May 16,2023 at 11:17 PM
Subject: Sfira bracha

Given that the kahal says the bracha for sfira/hallel after the shatz/rabbi,
does your kahal answer Baruch hu uvaruch shmo to the shatz's/rabbi's bracha?

Kt
Joel Rich

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From: Joel Rich <joeli...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 26,2023 at 12:17 AM
Subject: Shower shiur

Listening to a shiur in the shower recommended, permitted or forbidden?

Kt

Joel Rich

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