mail-jewish Vol.66 #58 Digest

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Oct 22, 2023, 2:03:10 PM10/22/23
Mail.Jewish Mailing List
Volume 66 Number 58
Produced: Sun, 22 Oct 23 14:03:05 -0400

Subjects Discussed In This Issue:

Blowing chatzotzrot [trumpets] at this time of trouble for the people (2)
[David E Cohen Martin Stern]
Chezkat kashrut
[Joel Rich]
Delayed payment
[Ari Trachtenberg]
Timing of first selichot
[Orrin Tilevitz]
When may the shatz begin?
[Carl Singer]


From: David E Cohen <>
Date: Tue, Oct 17,2023 at 07:17 AM
Subject: Blowing chatzotzrot [trumpets] at this time of trouble for the people

R' David Ziants wrote (MJ 66#57), regarding the blowing of trumpets at the Kotel:

> I appreciate that the staunch Yekkes on this list are probably very against
> this sort of thing. What about the rest of us? They justify it by quoting the
> Rambam - but I always understood that this was reserved for the Bet
> haMikdash [Temple].

Even without having to resort to the Rambam's position that the entire city
of Jerusalem has the status of "Mikdash" for certain purposes ...

The beraita brought by the Gemara on Rosh Hashana 27a explicitly says that in
contrast with the Mikdash, where the blowing of chatzotzrot (trumpets) is
accompanied by the blowing of shafarot, when chatzotzrot are blown "bigvulin"
(i.e. outside the Mikdash), they are blown without such accompaniment.

The Maggid Mishneh on the first halacha in Hilchot Taaniyot writes explicitly
that the Rambam holds that the mitzvah of blowing chatzotzrot applies only in
the Mikdash when it comes to blowing them while the korbanot (sacrifices) are
being offered, but applies everywhere when it comes to blowing them in a time of
trouble (and a time of war in particular, as mentioned in the pausk). This
seems apparent from the Rambam's presentation in Sefer Mitzvot (aseh 59) as well.

That being said, see the Ritva on Taanit 14a, and the discussion of it in Igrot
Moshe OC1: 169 for a more narrower view of the parameters of the mitzvah to blow
chatzotzrot in a time of trouble or war. But still, I don't see any reason to
oppose the blowing of trumpets at the Kotel, as, at least according to certain
Rishonim, it is probably a fulfillment of the mitzvah from the Torah. The
current situation of "when war come to your land" is one that was not relevant
during most of the centuries that have elapsed since the churban, so our ability
to look to the precedent of minhag here is limited.

May our tefilot be accepted and may we see the fulfillment of the second half of
the pasuk: "And you will be remembered before Hashem your God, and you will be
saved from your enemies."

-- D.C.


From: Martin Stern <>
Date: Wed, Oct 18,2023 at 11:17 AM
Subject: Blowing chatzotzrot [trumpets] at this time of trouble for the people

R' David Ziants wrote (MJ 66#57), regarding the blowing of trumpets at the

> I appreciate that the staunch Yekkes on this list are probably very against
> this sort of thing.

As a "staunch Yekke", I cannot understand what David is trying to imply but,
from his phraseology, it would appear to be derogatory. I would urge him to
explain what he meant.

Martin Stern


From: Joel Rich <>
Date: Tue, Oct 17,2023 at 11:17 PM
Subject: Chezkat kashrut

In Moscow in 1936 Rav Moshe was asked (YD 1:54) concerning a situation where
non-religious children were the only source of food for their religious parents.
Could such children be relied upon concerning the kosher status of the food
provided. He was mechadeish that while such individuals don't have ne'emanut
(halachic credibility), if the parents knew that the children would not lie to
them on this issue, they could be relied upon in a case of great need. A yedia
brura (clear knowledge?), based on actual experience would be required as well
as an underlying theory as to why the child would not do such a thing.

It occurred to me that, even if a rabbi gave such a ruling, the ruling would be
conditional on the parents judgment as to whether he had yedia brura, rather
than the rabbis evaluation of the knowledge. Quite a burden to put on somebody
who will certainly be impacted by the result, any thoughts appreciated.

Any thoughts?

Hashem Oz Lamo Yiten Hashem Yvarech Et Amo Bashalom

Joel Rich


From: Ari Trachtenberg <>
Date: Thu, Oct 19,2023 at 11:17 AM
Subject: Delayed payment

(submitted on behalf of an anonymous reader)

I have been a teacher for many years, and part of my core parnassa is working
for Jewish institutions. Can someone explain to me why some of these employers
delay payment and consider it a reasonable thing to do?

Two weeks ago, I invoiced a local hareidi institution for less than $100, and
they are giving me the runaround, claiming that it will take more than six weeks
to pay me. This is real money to me, as in I will be using it for food and
electricity. I was under the impression that timely payment of independent
Jewish laborers was not only a kiddush hashem but also a mitzvah d'oreita, as
stated in D'varim 24.


From: Orrin Tilevitz <>
Date: Mon, Oct 16,2023 at 05:17 PM
Subject: Timing of first selichot

In response to my query about how best to reschedule a 1 A.M. selichot that
can't get a minyan, and my suggestions of three non-ideal options, Yisrael Medad
(MJ 66#57) writes:

> Could there be a fourth one?
> That Selichot could be said, at least the piyutim, while the Kaddish and other
> elements that (may) require a minyan be simply skipped?

That is an option if you believe that if a shul can't get a minyan and there are
other shuls around, a justifiable option is to tell everyone "just show up and
we'll skip kaddish, layning, barchu, and chazarat hashatz, and we'll finish a
lot faster."


From: Carl Singer <>
Date: Mon, Oct 16,2023 at 05:17 PM
Subject: When may the shatz begin?

Joel Rich wrote (MJ 66#57):

> The SA (OC 55:6) discusses what to do if you have a minyan of exactly ten and
> nine of them are waiting for the tenth to finish his amida so as to start
> chazarat hashatz. While it's encouraged to wait, in a case of need the shatz
> may begin his chazara. I didn't notice anyone saying that the singleton should
> consider speeding up so as not to hold the minyan back.

I have no sources -- but the minhag that I see and have seen for over six
decades is that the Gabbai looks around and once he determines
that SIX have completed their amida he signals the shatz to begin.

Carl Singer

70 Howard Avenue
Passaic, NJ


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