Bitcoin backers need to be made square by Maidsafe.

[drawin...@gmail.com]

I recommend that the Maidsafe team double the amount of MaidSafecoin offered to every bitcoin backer.

See:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=579797.msg6533760#msg6533760

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=579797.msg6517601#msg6517601

http://safecointalk.org/index.php/topic,42.0.html

Basically, The Mastercoins raised are such a large amount of the Mastercoin market that they are useless.

In addition, only holders of Mastercoin BEFORE the announcement made a good deal, you couldn't just buy Mastercoin with Bitcoin because the price rose too quick.

This IPO allowed Mastercoin holders to cash out essentially.

Also the Bitcoins are being used by Maidsafe for development not Mastercoin because the Mastercoin side is almost valueless.

It's arguable that the bitcoin backers should of got a even better deal than Mastercoin backers because the only value really is in the Bitcoins.

Please try to sell the 20% of all Mastercoins Maidsafe holds. The price will plummet to several cents.

The bitcoin backers should at least be paid 100% more MaidSafecoin immediately. If not I will request an allowance that bitcoins backers be allowed to send their MaidSafecoin back to Maidsafe for a full refund of their bitcoin.

If either request is denied, legal action may be the only other alternative, the pricing structure was clear fraud as the Mastercoin "experts" designed this as a giant pump at the expense of the Bitcoin backers.

Now Maidsafe holds so much Mastercoin that it's impractical to use so the only utility comes from Bitcoin, yet the bitcoin backers are several times worse off.

It's simple, allow a refund mechanism or pay 100% more the bitcoin backers.

Thanks.

[Crypto Guy]

 I bought with bitcoin, and have no complaints. Don't act like you represent all bitcoin backers. Any complaining you do is on your own behalf.

I'm really getting sick of all the whining from daytraders.  Anyone who believes in this project and is holding for the long term should have no issues. 

[Crypto Guy]

And to quote "zorgo" on the first link you listed....

"I'm sorry guys but there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of how free markets work. The payment methods and price in bitcoin and mastercoin were known well in advance. If anyone bothered to pull out a calculator they would have seen the advantage of paying in mastercoin and with little effort they could have bought msc to buy Maidsafecoin.

Asking others to pay for your investment decision is not the way to go. If you had a problem with the pricing structure you should have been complaining way before now. "

[inf...@gmail.com]

I find it tedious to keep hearing people whinging about getting a raw deal and the whole msc thing. Terms were published well ahead and if any of these people bothered to do any research, they would have taken advantage of the terms as others did. David Irvine has held his hands up that mistakes were made (probably kicking himself for using the "magic number" of 0.2 to be honest). I think this should be the end of the matter though and its ridiculous to claim redress in this way, which could only move any "unfairness" onto others who did their homework. Various prices were paid in effect, some got a massive bargain (those buying msc at 0.8), others less so - I paid 1.7 and others bought with btc. Learn your life lessons, do your research next time, stop crying, grow up and shut the fu.....basically

[drawin...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, May 4, 2014 12:55:46 PM UTC+8, Crypto Guy wrote:
>  I bought with bitcoin, and have no complaints. Don't act like you represent all bitcoin backers. Any complaining you do is on your own behalf.
>
> I'm really getting sick of all the whining from daytraders.  Anyone who believes in this project and is holding for the long term should have no issues. 

First I am not a day trader and two, well I am voicing the opinion of a huge amount of people on the Bitcointalk forums, I do not speak only for myself.

Fact: Mastercoin backers got 2 - 3 times the coin for the same value and that Mastercoin isn't even that useful compared to the Bitcoin being held.

[drawin...@gmail.com]

Not sure why you're swearing at me, did I hit a nerve?

The price of Mastercoin started to rise as soon as these terms were made public, that means my friend, only people who held Mastercoin prior to the terms being made were able to make bank and a few lucky ones getting in early.

So the majority of bitcoin backers couldn't 'research' and take advantage because this forced the price of Mastercoin up very quickly, essentially only the holders of Mastercoin benifited from the IPO, being able to offload large amounts into MaidSafecoin.

[inf...@gmail.com]

Obviously I just missed the end of my sentence off - meant to say "shut the fud down". lol.. Look, I agtee with you, as I said "some got a massive bargain ai 0.8". Where we differ is in how to deal with this situation - I say move on, you shout "unfair". I didn't gain a big advantage either (as I said I paid 1.7).
Your reasoning:

"So the majority of bitcoin backers couldn't 'research' and take advantage because this forced the price of Mastercoin up very quickly"

This was exactly the reasoning behind why msc price was set at 0.2 - because it was expected to rise. Unfortunately this plan backfired to an extent and a number of msc holders were able to "cash out" by trading for msafe coins and then selling off gradually on masterxchange.It is not known how many people we are talking about here as they are mixed in with all the others who bought msc purely to buy msafe.
Some people got a better deal than you or me, I say live with it. How on Earth would you compensate me for example , having bought with msc at 1.7, when others got it for 0.8 - why just give btc buyers a bonus?
It is striking how many people complaining on "bitcointalk", also appear to have no clue as to what maidsafe actually is or does, yet they chucked money at it. this shows that the IPO was just the latest pump and dump scheme to jump aboard in the minds of the trolls - pure speculation without any research. Most people who invested, I would suggest bought out of a desire to change the world in some way - people who grasp the concepts,goals and potential rewards for humanity, rather than making a quick buck. Some things went wrong,not out of malice but naivete at worst: lets move on, give the guys a break and let them get on with the job. Negative fud and arguments can only devalue your investment anyway, so why not get behind the team and noost your prospects of future reward? Sorry for being harsh, but this conversation really belongs on forum from whence it has migrated.

[drawin...@gmail.com]

Well due to what I see as an unfairness due to the rising Mastercoin price, I would like an offer for a refund.

[inf...@gmail.com]

Sell them on masterxchange then, problem solved. So you only bought to profit then and bought knowing full well that you were foing to complain about the terms afterwards....right? You must have done if you read the terms first, its the only logical progression. My question is....why? What kind of investing muppetry is this?

[Lynda]

You mean a bailout.

It wasn't unfair.  You had access to the same information as everyone else.  You could have gone the other route, but you didn't.  If you had, you wouldn't be complaining now, you'd be laughing.  And if anyone asked you to fork over to bail out some other players, you'd tell them exactly where they could stick it.

Yep, seems to me you're asking for a bailout.

[Erick Lavoie]

I do not understand your intention with this post. Did you actually buy
MaidSafeCoins with bitcoins? Did you do this because you believed the
long term value will eventually reflect the actual usefulness of the
system? If so, you should be rewarded with a value increase that should
be significant and I do not understand the rest of your argument.

However, your post reads more much like an attempt to crash the price of
Mastercoins and/or
bring down the level of bitcoin holding of MaidSafe under the threat of
legal action. You are walking a very fine line, if so, and this is no
place for that kind of manipulation.

I would recommend you clarify your personal intention and position as an
investor rather than advising on how MaidSafe should handle their holdings.

Erick

[drawin...@gmail.com]

Disclosure: I bought MaidSafecoin with bitcoin. The mastercoin price had already balloned by the time I invested and didn't fully realize the extent of the Mastercoin involvment. Once I became aware of the fact that 20% of the entire supply of Mastercoin changed hands I became concerned about the situation.

[drawin...@gmail.com]

Disclosure: I bought MaidSafecoin with bitcoin. The mastercoin price had already balloned by the time I invested and didn't fully realize the extent of the Mastercoin involvment. Once I became aware of the fact that 20% of the entire supply of Mastercoin changed hands I became concerned about the situation.

Anyway, it seems I am against the tide here so there isn't much left to do.

I originally hoped to start a discuission as there were lots of concerned people on the Bitcointalk forums. However it seems I am on my own at this point and to be honest, when it's one person against many it normally means the one is in the wrong.

So for now I am going to stop dicussing this, I expected concerned people from the forum to also post their concerns but that's obviously no longer the case.

[Benjamin Bollen]

To me the reason why you’re not getting a big response is simple. People on this list have only so much energy in a single day. I think the majority prefers building the system we’re all rooting for, regardless of how the Maidsafecoins got divided. The biggest promise the Maidsafe team and community have to deliver on is getting the system running. For if we don’t, every MaidSafecoin is without any value.

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[drawin...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, May 4, 2014 8:25:34 PM UTC+8, Benjamin Bollen wrote:
> To me the reason why you’re not getting a big response is simple. People on this list have only so much energy in a single day. I think the majority prefers building the system we’re all rooting for, regardless of how the Maidsafecoins got divided. The biggest promise the Maidsafe team and community have to deliver on is getting the system running. For if we don’t, every MaidSafecoin is without any value.
>
>
>

You're right.

I was on the Bitcointalk forum and a lot of people were complaining about the situation so I figured I would try to move the conversation here because it seemed none of the MaidSafe team were reading the thread anymore.

If I knew in advance that I would be on my own here being a loud minority I would never have posted. I actually thought I was in the majority but it seems I was wrong.

[inf...@gmail.com]

Look mate, you don't sound like a bad chap and it's easy to understand being caught up all the bitcointalk trolling and conspiracy theories and get carried along by it. Being in a minority of one however does not mean you are definitely wrong by the way. This is flawed thinking. Many people in a number of countries are the religious majority for example: this doesn't mean they are right and all kinds of mumbo jumbo is true. The laws of physics and the nature of reality don't change just because most people are ignorant of science.
Anyway, Maidsafe is not just another altcoin and these are exciting times. I'm sorry for berating you and would honestly advise you to keep hold and read up a bit more on Maidsafe and become part of the community.
All views, opinions and constructive criticisms are welcome and encourage debate and stimulate new ideas...... never give up just because you are in the minority though. Just try to form opinions based on research and rationality and whether popular or not, the truth is the truth.

[Erick Lavoie]

I agree with Ben. You are certainly welcomed and encouraged to
contribute to the effort, it is the surest way of making sure the
investment you made will yield fruits. The rest is speculation, from
which unfortunately some may profit more than what would seem fair, but
I don't think it will matter that much in the long run.

I am glad to see that your post was not yet another trolling attempt,
which this list already had plenty of and distracted us from actually
building the system.

I hope we will see you again around!

Erick

[David Irvine]

On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 3:14 PM, Erick Lavoie <erick....@gmail.com> wrote:

I am glad to see that your post was not yet another trolling attempt, which this list already had plenty of and distracted us from actually building the system.

I hope we will see you again around!

+1 from me to. 

I have stopped even trying to answer bitcointalk forums etc. One of the main trolls there was on this list under a different name and now quotes himself as though it is another person on that list. He admits to trying to manipulate prices etc. He initially posted we were screwing MSC holders and now it's btc holders, there is no way to win there and there is not supposed to be in that game. It is a mad place at times and there is no point in any discussions when there are no facts at all being discussed. Note the bitcoin core devs, mastercoin, ethereum and many other projects have stopped trying to help out on that forum.

I am glad you are here and hope you enjoy it, we are trying to build something amazing and the community spirit is exceptional as you have seen. This is not going to be a normal project or a normal outcome. This is something we all care deeply about on the list and the maidsafe staff have been caring about for years (all of them btc investors in the project). 

So welcome, join in and do your part to make a positive difference, be ready for the nonsense that will be flung about, it's not nice to watch but gets easier to ignore by the second.  Here you will get facts and be able to see first hand the reality of what we are doing. 

Have a great time here and help us keep the list clean and full of facts and conjecture about making a better place and a better Internet.

--

David Irvine

Secure email and chat: dir...@unseen.is

twitter: @metaquestions

blog:  http://metaquestions.me

[drawin...@gmail.com]

Thanks guys. I'll hold on and see what happens.

[Al Kafir]

nice one

[luckyb...@gmail.com]

The argument I made on the Safeforum was that most of the $ value received and used by the MaidSafe team is coming from the BTC side. MaidSafe as a team got tricked into accepting MSC. This would have been fine if the MSC could have been spent, but there is no MSC to fiat exchange is there? That should have been an indication right there that MSC would have to be sold for BTC so why was MSC used at all?

But I also gave a very fair solution. We don't want to pit BTC holders vs MSC holders. We don't want to blame anyone. What we should do as a community is come together and make it right.

This does not require that you give BTC sends more MaidSafe coin. I don't want more MaidSafe coin because that just inflates and dilutes the number of total coins in a way which probably isn't a good idea and also it's at the expense of the MSC senders, some of which who probably did nothing wrong.

My post for a resolution is here: http://safecointalk.org/index.php/topic,42.msg150.html#msg150

But ignoring the BTC community when it feels it has suffered an injustice is the worst move. You can promise to gift rewards or benefits later on to the BTC addresses associated with the crowd sale which don't have to be Safecoins.

For example if you look at how the Bitshares community does things with the social consensus then you have some clues about how you can resolve this without damaging any other community. Simple create a sort of "mailing list" out of the addresses who sent BTC to the crowdsale address. They've received Safecoins at these addresses but there is nothing stopping MaidSafe and the overall BTC community from sending additional benefits to these addresses.

Airdrops may be an option. Litigation is not an option and to do that could threaten not just the MaidSafe community but the entire altcoin and Bitcoin community. It will result in scrutiny which could potentially ruin the long term potential of the SAFE Project and I think you underestimate the long term importance of this project.

[luckyb...@gmail.com]

We don't have to "move on". We should do something about it. Anyone can fork the MaidSafe project and reverse it so that BTC holders get percentage ownership of Safecoin2 based not on the amount of coins, but the actual dollar value.

Additionally you could also airdrop according to different donation patterns. Small donors could receive large airdrops from certain projects and developers. This would allow a fresh start.

But I'd rather there not have to be a fork. I'd rather MaidSafe as a team get on board with an airdrop solution. It does not have to be an airdrop of Safecoins because I understand a deal is a deal. Nothing stops the MaidSafe team from developing some other sort of project and giving the coins exclusively to the BTC holders as a way of saying thanks.

MaidSafe would have no money to spend right now if not for BTC donors. MaidSafe has no contractual obligation to BTC donors but they do have an obligation if they want to maintain BTC community support in the long term.

To maintain that support in the long term the MaidSafe team has to take care of the people who took care of it. The MSC donors aren't the people who are currently funding MaidSafe which means the MSC donors are set to get something for nothing, and while this might not be intentional, I don't see why the MSC donors should get the vast majority of benefits when their funds aren't the funds which can be spent. If BTC is being spent then MSC was used only to test the smart property feature.

This could have been accomplished with Counterparty just as easily. So while Mastercoin is important and MSC donors should get what was promised, it does not make the Mastercoin community look good to be selfish about this situation.

[David Irvine]

On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 9:20 PM, <luckyb...@gmail.com> wrote:

the $ value received and used by the MaidSafe team is coming from the BTC side.

Can I just re-iterate again we raised this for the community to pass project SAFE to the community. Me and all my friends and people on the list I know of used BTC to make this happen. If the MSC price had shot up should we pay them? I feel what we did as a company was outstanding to give this away like we did and raise cash to try and get the community up and running and hopefully the foundation to. It is unlikely we can get the foundation going with any strength now.  

Can we please stop this, it is not launching the project and taking precious time. I have explained all I can in my blog. It is amazing so many people backed the project and the project will succeed by the community backing it.  

If we listen to all the MSC holders got screwed and then all BTC holders got screwed then we will get nowhere. This project was never about some short term speculation and I really wish I had a banner saying that right across the sale. 

We should not be talking of the MaidSafe teams lack of obligations we have worked our butts off for years and are trying to continue to do so. No point in attacking the Master Protocol either. We have been very open honest and up front. I am not going to take any more funds from the community pods etc. that we promised to set up. These are already underfunded due to our mistakes (unless BTC or MSC value increases, which they may), you are surely not suggesting we reduce what we can do there now are you? 

This list and community have been amazing, these distractions are dangerous and will put people off. If anything is going to reduce BTC or MSC value it is this kind of thought process and persecution. 

BTC was set at 17000, everyone got 23800 and now you think dollar value should have been paid? is that updated every minute on what exchange? etc. I do not know the BTC price in six months of the MSC price or liquidity, we will see. This makes no sense. Please stop. 

I hope I have not misunderstood your intent, if I have I apologise, but try to work on some complex logic and deal with this! We launch the networks or sit and dissect this for weeks. This is very damaging to everything we have worked for and continue to work for, we are all in MaidSafe doing 18 hour plus days just now. I am not asking for encouragement but I am asking we are focussed on increasing the value people have gotten from the sale and the best way is for us to now get our heads down and get this done.

[Al Kafir]

so why was MSC used at all?

This has been fully explained in a number of forums by the Maidsafe team on bitcointalk etc inc here:

http://metaquestions.me/2014/05/01/surviving-a-crowd-sale/

 

We don't want to pit BTC holders vs MSC holders

Then don’t

 

I don't want more MaidSafe coin

Eh?

 

You can promise to gift rewards or benefits later on

Erm….. no.

 

For example if you look at how the Bitshares community does things with the social consensus……

General community consensus appears to be, erm….no

 

 it does not make the Mastercoin community look good to be selfish about this situation.

Take this up with the Mastercoin community.

 

Airdrops may be an option. 

So may kissing my arse.

 

Litigation is not an option

Correct and neither is making idle threats.

 

 I think you underestimate the long term  importance of this project.

Just…..lol

 

Seriously, just do one and stop whining, you knew the terms before you bought…end of.

[Erick Lavoie]

On 2014-05-04 4:49 PM, David Irvine wrote:
> I am not asking for encouragement but I am asking we are focussed on
> increasing the value people have gotten from the sale and the best way
> is for us to now get our heads down and get this done.

Fully agree here. The reward all backers should be focused on is the
ability to participate in the early economy of the SAFE network, no more
no less.

It amazes me that in all those discussions, investors that *did receive*
their MaidSafeCoins according to the original terms are missing the
forest for the trees: the MaidSafe team chose to let go of their
priviledged position as the creators of the system to share a great (the
major!?) part of the wealth that is going to be created with early
adopters to ensure fast adoption and a democratic ownership of the
infrastructure. I am pretty sure they could have gone down the Venture
Capital route with their 8+ years of efforts in the system, raise more
money this way than they would have with the crowdsale, not bother
dealing with individual disgruntled individuals, and keep a much bigger
share of the eventual profits for themselves. But it would have run
counter to the whole decentralized ethos of the system. The asymmetry
between what bitcoiners got vs mastercoiners is, in my view, complety
dwarfed by what the MaidSafe team gave away vs what all investors will
get given their technical implication in the project *in the last 8 years*.

Also, much of the value of the coins will be derived from their usage on
the SAFE network, not from exchanges prior to the official launch. It is
therefore counter-productive, and ultimately against the self-interest
of early investors, to divert MaidSafe's small team and the nascent
community focus towards the perceived unfair reward of bitcoiners vs
mastercoiners, because it compromises the realization of the system by
sapping everyone's energy.

My personal view as a bitcoin investor is that I participated in a
KickStarter crowdfunding campaign, which might never materialize but
should it succeed, I will eventually get Safecoins in the end that I'll
be able to use on the SAFE network. I will do everything I can to make
that success happen, including eventual core technical contributions. I
also want to make sure that the day-to-day operation of the network
itself will be as democratic as possible and that the network will
reward in priority active contributions from participants and not just
passive holding of wealth. The early imbalances in the initial
distribution of coins should then not matter in the end. The major
advantage I get for being involved early beside some safecoins, is the
possibility to figure out how to be an efficient and useful active
contributor in the SAFE network from day one.

Cheers,

Erick

PS: I am glad to see other members of the community chiming in on those
issues to relieve the core MaidSafe team. As the wider world realizes
the disruptive nature of the proposition, we might have to do it more
and more...

PPS: Unless I am deeply mistaken, there seems to be a general consensus
that the MaidSafe team did stay true to their core values and did the
best they could of unforeseen events. Let's now focus on building the
system.

[Al Kafir]

+1 

[luckyb...@gmail.com]

The solution I proposed was to promote long term speculation by creating long term stakeholders.

It is up to the community to right the wrong, and if enough people feel they were wronged that is what will happen. The code belongs to everyone now, it's free, it's open, and really the whole point is to pay for the development of future code.

Any app developers who think what happened was unfair can bias in favor of the BTC community going into the future to correct the situation. I'm not advocating refunds, or changing the past as that is a waste of time.

[luckyb...@gmail.com]

I'm not whining at all nor making idle threats. The OP is the one who was whining and making threats. I simple stated that the community will come together to resolve the issue if enough people in the community feel they were wronged.

The reason is that I put the community first, not the profit of MSC holders or BTC holders, but the intention is to create long term stakeholders.

The idea to airdrop is to maintain long term community support. Any app developers who want long term support can easily get it by making decisions which help them to be perceived as more fair than their competitors.

For example if one altcoin is premined then another altcoin can compete by claiming it's not premined which gives it an advantage. Now support you have Mastercoin, well a lot of people thought the distribution was unfair so Counterparty was created. The point I'm making here is that from the community will emerge solutions from developers and entrepreneurs who believe in the general ideals of the Safe Project but who may not have agreed with certain aspects of the crowd fund.

If for example I'm a developer who sent BTC to receive Safecoins then I agree there is nothing I can do. I purchased and got what I was supposed to get. However if enough people say they are upset about it then I could satisfy the demands of these people as a developer by catering to these people through airdrops, special deals if I'm running a business, discounts, bonuses, gifts, or whatever else I want.

I have the capability to choose to give special discounts to any group I choose just as MaidSafe had this capability. I will stop paying attention to this subject for a while because my intentions and posts are being misinterpreted and I have made my point.

[David Irvine]

On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 11:23 PM, <luckyb...@gmail.com> wrote:

It is up to the community to right the wrong, and

BTC holders got what we said they would plus 40% this is not wrong it's exactly what was advertised and the reason we took action. Taking the action got us in a position to take a load of heat and now if we had not taken that action the BTC folks would have nothing. So we are somehow to blame for people getting what we said they would! 

If people feel wronged then I apologise, but I cannot see how, is it because MSC did not go up in value or perhaps BTC did not decrease in value after we set the 17000 price or some other reason. Either way I cannot see how BTC folks feel bad unless they are using some kind of hindsight calculations based on moving market prices that did not work in their favour from a certain angle.

I am not answering any more threads like this any more. We really must get the testnets out and this is just pure damage now. If an app dev wishes to favour BTC folks to right a wrong they feel may have happened at some time in the past then fine. 

If these places giving discount for BTC purchases got hounded by fiat paying people after the fact demanding retribution what do you think they would say? Next time make stuff cheaper for fiat people? 

This needs to finish now, it is stopping development and will make the devs feel sick and not concentrate on work. Its massively insulting.

I think we all need to stop with this thread its not productive and I think everyone is being taken out of context. 

[luckyb...@gmail.com]

I'm not blaming anyone for this. I didn't make my posts to make blame. I'm happy with the Safecoins I will get.

My posts were perhaps misinterpreted. I don't think you Dr.Irvine or the MaidSafe team has any further obligations. The crowdsale is finished and I'm not advocating people try to change the past.

I think there were be plenty of projects which can be built on top of MaidSafe which will be of value. I think there will be plenty of app developers who have different opinions on how to do things going into the future, and I believe in the community and in the ability of developers to determine what to do next.

I think long term community support is essential and that is why I gave my recommendations (I wasn't supposed to respond to that last post but I'll take a break starting now).

[David Irvine]

On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 11:47 PM, <luckyb...@gmail.com> wrote:

My posts were perhaps misinterpreted. I don't think you Dr.Irvine or the MaidSafe team has any further obligations. The crowdsale is finished and I'm not advocating people try to change the past.

No worries, but no need to promote me I am just David, not a Dr. :-) Thats Mahmoud and Qi no me. 

[David Irvine]

On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 11:49 PM, David Irvine <david....@maidsafe.net> wrote:

No worries, but no need to promote me I am just David, not a Dr. :-) Thats Mahmoud and Qi no me. 

Also not the boss either maidsafe.net/team

[Benjamin Bollen]

On 05 May 2014, at 00:52, David Irvine <david....@maidsafe.net> wrote:

On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 11:49 PM, David Irvine <david....@maidsafe.net> wrote:

No worries, but no need to promote me I am just David, not a Dr. :-) Thats Mahmoud and Qi no me. 

Also not the boss either maidsafe.net/team

No, the boss is “Logic;” I like the semi-colon Victoria Turk added in http://motherboard.vice.com/en_uk/read/bitcoin-internet-the-plan-for-a-decentralized-web-that-runs-on-cryptocurrency

It’s a nice touch :)))

--

David Irvine

Secure email and chat: dir...@unseen.is

twitter: @metaquestions

blog:  http://metaquestions.me

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[David Irvine]

On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 11:58 PM, Benjamin Bollen <benjami...@gmail.com> wrote:

It’s a nice touch :)))

+1

[swb...@hotmail.com]

David,
I find it shocking that this has been brushed aside and that you may be taking the sentiments of two community members (most likely from the MSC side) as a representation of the entire state of the community.

The majority of the BTC community is upset (those that have been informed of the situation). Many more have yet to discover what has happened. I found it disappointing that you decided to host this project as a MSC asset in the first place. Holding an IPO with a fixed rate in two separate currencies that are WILDLY SPECULATIVE can only be seen as a gross oversight of the industry.

Even having an IPO with a fixed price in just one currency with the potential for daily fluctuation that bitcoin has could be seen as foolish.
Rather I think a amount invested proportional to the total amount would have been a fairer scheme. Of course this wouldn't ensure you received the amount you were looking for. But you could have held it open until such a time as you received the requested amount (6 million). In this regard you would still receive the amount of funding you need but everyone would receive a proportional and fair share.


It still does not make sense to me why mastercoin was even involved with this process at all. Someone else mentioned that your reasoning on this had been stated but I have still not learned of a VALID reason as to why this was done. Even now I have done a bit of scouring to find the logic behind this but I can't. It almost seems as if you tried to find a shortcut to this situation.

Could you not have set up a website where people could sign up, enter an email and generate a deposit address? A simple system where the server compiles a list of email addresses, transactions and deposit amounts could be created and when it is time to issue maidsafecoins users could log in and enter their maidsafecoin address into their account and the server would then send it out and mark their account as "fulfilled".

This would have bypassed the entire need for Mastercoin at all.
Or am I oversimplifying thing?

As it stands you've created a system where a majority of investors aren't happy.
And just saying "you knew the rules" or "its over now so deal with it" is a really poor method of investor relations or appeasing the general public.
We might have known the rules but we had no choice. What were we supposed to do, just not invest because we knew it was unfair? Is that your reasoning? We should have just abstained from obtaining a stake in a project some of us have been following for years?

We had no choice. That is the bottom line. You created a system that was obviously going to slight one side or another, with no feedback or impartial consultation with the community beforehand.

What you should have done, rather than increasing the IPO amount of coins and reducing everyones stake was issued new coins from the remaining 90% pool (making the IPO 12% or 14% instead of 10%) to benefit the loss in value to BTC investors.

As it stands, in the future if the value of maidsafecoins reaches a certain price and I can sell one stake for $1000 profit, I know that those who invested via msc will be selling for $2000-$4000 profit.

Thats a huge loss. and telling people they are just crying or whining or bitching is fairly inconsiderate to the situation.

[Al Kafir]

I find it shocking that this has been brushed aside and that you may be taking the sentiments of two community members (most likely from the MSC side) as a representation of the entire state of the community

 

Whereas you and your cohorts are irrefutably representative of the majority of the btc community, just because you claim to be”?

I started wading through your post to try and pick the bones out a bit. It starts with mainly deriding the “foolish” dev team for various “gross oversights” around crowdsale etc. Helpfully though, (unfazed by the fact this subject has been talked and answered to death) you go on to tell us all what the team should have done. Anyway…….

 

 It almost seems as if you tried to find a shortcut to this situation.

What do you mean by this? 

 

This sentence:

We should have just abstained from obtaining a stake in a project some of us have been following for years?

And this sentence:

It still does not make sense to me why mastercoin was even involved with this process at all

are incompatible, do more research about the need for an intermediary coin linked to blockchain was necessary.

 

As it stands, in the future if the value of maidsafecoins reaches a certain price and I can sell one stake for $1000 profit, I know that those who invested via msc will be selling for $2000-$4000 profit. 

 

Says it all really, and yes,” just saying "you knew the rules" or "its over now so deal with it" will have to do you, ok because that’s just the bottom line and we would like the devs to be able to get on with their work, rather than keep answering the same things. Please take it to the forum if you need to..

 

Can’t be arsed answering anything else to be honest

[david...@gmail.com]

You're quite right but you're over complicating it actually.

Digital tokens are free to issue so you're right to be confused why Mastercoin got such a large stake (62%) for around $50k of investment in todays market.

There's only two systems for issuing digital tokens Mastercoin and Counterparty. Counterparty charge a one off fee of less than $1 to do the same thing Mastercoin did.

To tease David for giving a 62% stake of this proposition to Mastercoin at the expense of his investors, I sent him 456016401 MSAFE to the Bitcoin address on his twitter account 13YSCv8SLrBw27AdyRQY8adfsGa56viQcJ. These digital tokens were issued using Counterparty.

Both of these systems run on alpha quality software so I wouldn't have trusted either to hold investor funds. If you had to choose out of Counterparty's tested, working and almost free software vs the un-tested Mastercoin software with it's nonsensical business proposition then it's a no-brainer!

However the real elegant solution would have been to simply send bitcoins to a fundraiser address until such time as SPT could be issued on a system that was past alpha testing stage.

The Bitcoin Blockchain is a public ledger that stores all the information necessary to administrate this process.