Indian and Norse Comparisons II: Indian/Germanic Correspondences.
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Chris Travers
Sep 9, 2009, 2:16:07 PM9/9/09
to mahabharata...@googlegroups.com
I was going to write a piece concerning theories relating to Germanic peoples and Iranian counterparts, but after carefully considering things, I have concluded that the attempts to trace Germanic horse-back-riding and clothing types to Iranian tribes is somewhat flawed. There are both time and distribution problems with these theories but it doesn't preclude some contact. Furthermore, the near-total abandonment of chariots by the Germanic peoples (reserving them only for ceremonial purposes) suggests to my mind a local rather than imported development probably closely based on geographic necessities as this pattern was not observed among Scythians or others. Remember that Iranian languages (Avestan and decendants like Pashtu, Farsee, etc) are very closely related to the Indian languages. The old name for Iran was "Aryanam" which is almost decypherable in Sanscrit.
Thus I would be more inclined to promote Germanic/Indo-Iranian connections to first-class comparative elements rather than the second-class I have given then before. Theories relating Iranian contact to the development of Germanic peoples is also not sufficiently widely accepted academically to treat it as reliable at this time.
So instead I will jump to mythological correspondences.
Indra/Thorr is the most obvious correspondence.
Yama/Ymir is also well supported both functionally and linguistically.
However, from here things become difficult. Dumezil saw Mitra and Tyr as comparable, and Varuna as comparable to Odhinn. Certainly there are clear structures in common in these cases, but I am not entirely sure that these gods are one to one equivalents. More likely we have mythological structures which are in common but no immediately clear gods that are direct reflexes of eachother. In particular, Odhinn's role in sacrificing Ymir is quite comparable to Manu's role in sacrificing Yama.
Dumezil also drew attention to what I like to call the Trifunctional Formula, which is in iconography or poetry a specific functional grouping of god-names. Among the Romans, you see the First Capitoline Triad of Jupiter, Mars, and Quirinus, which also appears in Cato's Lustration of the Fields. Among the Norse, you have poetic invocations of Odhinn, Thorr, and Freyr in Skirnismal as a part of a cursing formula. He relates this to other groupings of Mitra/Varuna, Indra, and the Ahsvinns and to the placement of the castes in the Vedic coronation ritual. I would further relate it to Greek oath fomulas (usually Zeus, Apollo, and either Artemis or Demeter).
Dumezil's discovery of consistent elements in this model is important but remains somewhat controversial today, often because folk criticize where Dumezil took the model without going back and doing further comparative research on the structural elements that Dumezil identified. My own opinion is that both the supporters and opponents of Dumezil's theories have some valid points and in particular Dumezil spent too much time on sociological elements of the comparisons and not enough elsewhere.
I don't think that these formulas show direct correspondence between the gods. Certainly Odhinn and Jupiter have some elements in common (both are the fathers of their pantheons), but Jupiter and Zeus are more likely reflexes of Thorr and Indra. So one has to see the structure as something other than a very conservative and unchangng group of gods. Furthermore, we can observe very clear changes in sociological function between reasonably closely related groups, where the Irish In Dagda takes on more fertility and prosperity roles than does the Gaulish reflex Taranis.
So beyond the most blatant correspondences, I think one has to look at structures rather than figures. Some obvious examples include:
1) Spacial correspondences between Vedic coronation ceremonies and division of the kingdoms of Ireland. (In Ireland, Learning is placed in the west, warfare in the north, plenty in the east, music in the south, and kingship in the center. This compares well to the Brahmins in the west, Kshatriyas in the North, etc, though the comparison isn't exact.)
2) Color correspondences between the castes and between the three divisions of Norse society (White for the Earls, Red for the Karls, Black for the Thralls) mentioned in Rigsthula.
3) Bipartite division of fate based on a fairly complex set of structures. In Old Norse, there are two word for fate: Urdh ("That which has turned") and Orlog ("Primal Law/Lot"). This structure can be compared to Karma/Dharma with some accuracy, and there are Greek equivalents as well. In fact the correspondences of fate cosmology could be the subject of a book-length study..... (I am working on a "short" 20-page paper on that subject focusing mostly on Germanic models and comparisons to other Indo-European peoples.)
4) The significance of the horse is also quite comparable across cultures.
Anyway, next time, I will discuss the Slaying of Balder, Dumezil's attempt to find comparisons in the Mahabharata, and Polome's attempts to find Vedic correspondences.
Thus I would be more inclined to promote Germanic/Indo-Iranian connections to first-class comparative elements rather than the second-class I have given then before. Theories relating Iranian contact to the development of Germanic peoples is also not sufficiently widely accepted academically to treat it as reliable at this time.
So instead I will jump to mythological correspondences.
Indra/Thorr is the most obvious correspondence.
Yama/Ymir is also well supported both functionally and linguistically.
However, from here things become difficult. Dumezil saw Mitra and Tyr as comparable, and Varuna as comparable to Odhinn. Certainly there are clear structures in common in these cases, but I am not entirely sure that these gods are one to one equivalents. More likely we have mythological structures which are in common but no immediately clear gods that are direct reflexes of eachother. In particular, Odhinn's role in sacrificing Ymir is quite comparable to Manu's role in sacrificing Yama.
Dumezil also drew attention to what I like to call the Trifunctional Formula, which is in iconography or poetry a specific functional grouping of god-names. Among the Romans, you see the First Capitoline Triad of Jupiter, Mars, and Quirinus, which also appears in Cato's Lustration of the Fields. Among the Norse, you have poetic invocations of Odhinn, Thorr, and Freyr in Skirnismal as a part of a cursing formula. He relates this to other groupings of Mitra/Varuna, Indra, and the Ahsvinns and to the placement of the castes in the Vedic coronation ritual. I would further relate it to Greek oath fomulas (usually Zeus, Apollo, and either Artemis or Demeter).
Dumezil's discovery of consistent elements in this model is important but remains somewhat controversial today, often because folk criticize where Dumezil took the model without going back and doing further comparative research on the structural elements that Dumezil identified. My own opinion is that both the supporters and opponents of Dumezil's theories have some valid points and in particular Dumezil spent too much time on sociological elements of the comparisons and not enough elsewhere.
I don't think that these formulas show direct correspondence between the gods. Certainly Odhinn and Jupiter have some elements in common (both are the fathers of their pantheons), but Jupiter and Zeus are more likely reflexes of Thorr and Indra. So one has to see the structure as something other than a very conservative and unchangng group of gods. Furthermore, we can observe very clear changes in sociological function between reasonably closely related groups, where the Irish In Dagda takes on more fertility and prosperity roles than does the Gaulish reflex Taranis.
So beyond the most blatant correspondences, I think one has to look at structures rather than figures. Some obvious examples include:
1) Spacial correspondences between Vedic coronation ceremonies and division of the kingdoms of Ireland. (In Ireland, Learning is placed in the west, warfare in the north, plenty in the east, music in the south, and kingship in the center. This compares well to the Brahmins in the west, Kshatriyas in the North, etc, though the comparison isn't exact.)
2) Color correspondences between the castes and between the three divisions of Norse society (White for the Earls, Red for the Karls, Black for the Thralls) mentioned in Rigsthula.
3) Bipartite division of fate based on a fairly complex set of structures. In Old Norse, there are two word for fate: Urdh ("That which has turned") and Orlog ("Primal Law/Lot"). This structure can be compared to Karma/Dharma with some accuracy, and there are Greek equivalents as well. In fact the correspondences of fate cosmology could be the subject of a book-length study..... (I am working on a "short" 20-page paper on that subject focusing mostly on Germanic models and comparisons to other Indo-European peoples.)
4) The significance of the horse is also quite comparable across cultures.
Anyway, next time, I will discuss the Slaying of Balder, Dumezil's attempt to find comparisons in the Mahabharata, and Polome's attempts to find Vedic correspondences.
Anindya
Sep 10, 2009, 2:36:35 AM9/10/09
to Mahabharata Discussion
Yama/Ymir is also well supported both functionally and
linguistically.
However, from here things become difficult. Dumezil saw Mitra and Tyr
as
comparable, and Varuna as comparable to Odhinn. Certainly there are
clear
structures in common in these cases, but I am not entirely sure that
these
gods are one to one equivalents. More likely we have mythological
structures which are in common but no immediately clear gods that are
direct
reflexes of eachother. In particular, Odhinn's role in sacrificing
Ymir is
quite comparable to Manu's role in sacrificing Yama.
Hi Chris,
linguistically.
However, from here things become difficult. Dumezil saw Mitra and Tyr
as
comparable, and Varuna as comparable to Odhinn. Certainly there are
clear
structures in common in these cases, but I am not entirely sure that
these
gods are one to one equivalents. More likely we have mythological
structures which are in common but no immediately clear gods that are
direct
reflexes of eachother. In particular, Odhinn's role in sacrificing
Ymir is
quite comparable to Manu's role in sacrificing Yama.
The Yama/Ymir correspondence doesn't seem so clear to
me. Yama is lord of the dead, judge of the afterlife etc, while from
the little I know, Ymir is just a primeval giant who gets killed by
Odin and co. (Any reason in particular, or just for kicks ?)
Also, could you please point me to the Manu and Yama story ? Haven't
come across it and sounds intriguing.
Anindya
Dr. Bisakha Sen
Sep 11, 2009, 3:26:21 AM9/11/09
to Mahabharata Discussion
>
> Dumezil also drew attention to what I like to call the Trifunctional
> Formula, which is in iconography or poetry a specific functional grouping of
> god-names
I think the 'Trifunctional formula' I am most aware of in Hindu
> Dumezil also drew attention to what I like to call the Trifunctional
> Formula, which is in iconography or poetry a specific functional grouping of
> god-names
mythology is 'Brahma Vishnu Maheshwara' -- but of course, that's more
of the post Vedic period. I suppose the Vedic Trifunctional formula
that comes most readily to mind is 'Indra Agni and Vayu' (Rain, Fire,
Wind --- a nice ring :)).
BTW, talking parallels, I suppose the parallels between Freya and the
Indian Warrior Mother Goddess never really struck me till that
discussion on Slate FB where it was mentioned that Freya's chariot was
drawn by cats. The Warrior Goddess always rides some member of the
feline family, either a tiger or a lion, in her many 'forms'.
Looking forward to the Mahabharat parallels :)
Pia
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