The first formalization of an animal model
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Eray Ozkural
Jan 3, 2017, 3:48:36 PM1/3/17
to ai-phi...@yahoogroups.com, magic...@googlegroups.com, Ben Goertzel, David Dowe
Greetings fellow AI researchers,
I wonder if the researchers on these two lists, ai-philosophy and magic-list, know the first complete and satisfactory mathematical formalization of an animal that can be regarded a scientific model? Can you tell me who wrote it, which paper, and when, please? I am writing a review article about this, and I am curious if I have missed anything. I do not believe I missed any important reference, but consider this a puzzling question.
Often, new researchers miss or forget old research and reinvent it, like reinventing the wheel. I realized that most AI researchers aren't well read on mathematical literature as they are usually more empirically minded or come from a cognitive science/psychology background, so I thought I would initiate this discussion with a simple question. Of course, the earliest such reference matters, I am not really interested in later work that is semantically equivalent.
Kind Regards,
PS: Crossposted, please reply-all and subscribe to both lists if you have a good answer. I am sure there are people on ai-philosophy list who know the answer, because we discussed this around 2004-2005 I think, but I have the impression that people on the MAGIC-list are unaware of the history of this line of research. A few senior AI researchers had taught me about this, and there is a wealth of interesting scientific history around this matter as you might appreciate. Thanks!
--
PS: Crossposted, please reply-all and subscribe to both lists if you have a good answer. I am sure there are people on ai-philosophy list who know the answer, because we discussed this around 2004-2005 I think, but I have the impression that people on the MAGIC-list are unaware of the history of this line of research. A few senior AI researchers had taught me about this, and there is a wealth of interesting scientific history around this matter as you might appreciate. Thanks!
Eray Ozkural, PhD. Computer Scientist
Founder, Gok Us Sibernetik Ar&Ge Ltd.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ai-philosophy
Founder, Gok Us Sibernetik Ar&Ge Ltd.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ai-philosophy
Eray Ozkural
Jan 6, 2017, 8:00:14 PM1/6/17
to ai-phi...@yahoogroups.com, magic...@googlegroups.com
Greetings Michael,
Thanks for the reply, but I am not asking for a complete simulator of a lifeform, although that is certainly interesting for theoreticians. I am asking for the historically first sufficiently complete (general) formalization of an animal, i.e., a mathematical model. When/whom do you think? I assume that you would be one of the few pre-idiocracy era researchers who would know the exact reference. This question is, in my ever so humble opinion, important, as there seems to be some redundancy in the multitude of such definitions proposed in the AI literature. Excuse me if my language sounds a bit opaque. I have been trying to practice the vernacular for some time, but perhaps it is best to stick to formal philosophical language to avoid misunderstandings.
Kind Regards,
Eray
Positivist
On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 12:24 AM, Michael Olea ol...@sbcglobal.net [ai-philosophy] <ai-phi...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
There is an E Coli simulator (Dennis Bray and many others) that might qualify. I don't have references here (at the movies, before the trailers have started) but I think you can find it on Bray's website.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 3, 2017, at 12:48 PM, Eray Ozkural er...@cs.bilkent.edu.tr [ai-philosophy] <ai-phi...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Greetings fellow AI researchers,I wonder if the researchers on these two lists, ai-philosophy and magic-list, know the first complete and satisfactory mathematical formalization of an animal that can be regarded a scientific model? Can you tell me who wrote it, which paper, and when, please? I am writing a review article about this, and I am curious if I have missed anything. I do not believe I missed any important reference, but consider this a puzzling question.
Often, new researchers miss or forget old research and reinvent it, like reinventing the wheel. I realized that most AI researchers aren't well read on mathematical literature as they are usually more empirically minded or come from a cognitive science/psychology background, so I thought I would initiate this discussion with a simple question. Of course, the earliest such reference matters, I am not really interested in later work that is semanti cally equivalent.
Kind Regards,
PS: Crossposted, please reply-all and subscribe to both lists if you have a good answer. I am sure there are people on ai-philosophy list who know the answer, because we discussed this around 2004-2005 I think, but I have the impression that people on the MAGIC-list are unaware of the history of this line of research. A few senior AI researchers had taught me about this, and there is a wealth of interesting scientific history around this matter as you might appreciate. Thanks!--Eray Ozkural, PhD. Computer Scientist
Founder, Gok Us Sibernetik Ar&Ge Ltd.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ai-philosophy
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Eray Ozkural
Jan 6, 2017, 8:02:12 PM1/6/17
to ai-phi...@yahoogroups.com, magic...@googlegroups.com
Yes, I am well aware of the Chaitin paper from 70's, I must have read a lot of his papers and books. However, that is about an abstract definition of life, which later turned out to be wrong. I think I cited it a few times. And it certainly does not formalize an animal sufficiently.
Best Wishes,
On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Tarik ÖZKANLI tozkan...@gmail.com [ai-philosophy] <ai-phi...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Hi Eray,I think you are well aware with the Algortihmic Information theory's (AIT) "mutual information" concept whcih can be used to partition the world in to separate living beings according to Chatin.Best.
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Vaibhav Gavane
Jan 7, 2017, 2:48:35 AM1/7/17
to magic...@googlegroups.com
Can you explain what do you mean by an "animal"? If you don't want a
DNA-based definition/model of an "animal" then what do you want?
DNA-based definition/model of an "animal" then what do you want?
Eray Ozkural
Jan 7, 2017, 5:59:39 AM1/7/17
to magic...@googlegroups.com
An abstract, general, formal model of what any animal does of course. We are not on a biology list, therefore it should also cover artificial animals. DNA based sounds wholly irrelevant to my query.
Best Regards,
On Jan 7, 2017 9:48 AM, "Vaibhav Gavane" <vaibhav...@gmail.com> wrote:
Can you explain what do you mean by an "animal"? If you don't want a
DNA-based definition/model of an "animal" then what do you want?
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Vaibhav Gavane
Jan 7, 2017, 6:51:19 AM1/7/17
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All animals *reproduce*, and therefore, any "abstract, general, formal
model" of an animal must take this into account. Otherwise, you are
*not* modeling animals at all.
On 1/7/17, Eray Ozkural <exama...@gmail.com> wrote:
> An abstract, general, formal model of what any animal does of course. We
> are not on a biology list, therefore it should also cover artificial
> animals. DNA based sounds wholly irrelevant to my query.
>
> Best Regards,
> On Jan 7, 2017 9:48 AM, "Vaibhav Gavane" <vaibhav...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Can you explain what do you mean by an "animal"? If you don't want a
>> DNA-based definition/model of an "animal" then what do you want?
>>
>> --
>> Before posting, please read this: https://groups.google.com/
>> forum/#!topic/magic-list/_nC7PGmCAE4
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>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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model" of an animal must take this into account. Otherwise, you are
*not* modeling animals at all.
On 1/7/17, Eray Ozkural <exama...@gmail.com> wrote:
> An abstract, general, formal model of what any animal does of course. We
> are not on a biology list, therefore it should also cover artificial
> animals. DNA based sounds wholly irrelevant to my query.
>
> Best Regards,
> On Jan 7, 2017 9:48 AM, "Vaibhav Gavane" <vaibhav...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Can you explain what do you mean by an "animal"? If you don't want a
>> DNA-based definition/model of an "animal" then what do you want?
>>
>> --
>> Before posting, please read this: https://groups.google.com/
>> forum/#!topic/magic-list/_nC7PGmCAE4
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Eray Ozkural
Jan 7, 2017, 7:06:41 AM1/7/17
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That is probably some modelling at the biology level, let us say from a cognitive science/AI perspective, just to clarify. You can also model reproduction or replication of course, but obviously I am referring to a single specimen's behavior, not reproduction, or group behavior, so it is truly irrelevant here. Let us try to engage our common sense, too.
Best Wishes,
On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 2:51 PM, Vaibhav Gavane <vaibhav...@gmail.com> wrote:
All animals *reproduce*, and therefore, any "abstract, general, formal
model" of an animal must take this into account. Otherwise, you are
*not* modeling animals at all.
On 1/7/17, Eray Ozkural <exama...@gmail.com> wrote:
> An abstract, general, formal model of what any animal does of course. We
> are not on a biology list, therefore it should also cover artificial
> animals. DNA based sounds wholly irrelevant to my query.
>
> Best Regards,
> On Jan 7, 2017 9:48 AM, "Vaibhav Gavane" <vaibhav...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Can you explain what do you mean by an "animal"? If you don't want a
>> DNA-based definition/model of an "animal" then what do you want?
>>
>> --
>> Before posting, please read this: https://groups.google.com/
>> forum/#!topic/magic-list/_nC7PGmCAE4
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>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/magic-list.
>>
>
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Gabriel Leuenberger
Jan 7, 2017, 7:16:07 AM1/7/17
to MAGIC
What would such an animal model have to provide other than simply being an agent?
mobility? survival instincts? getting food? having a cortex?
On Saturday, 7 January 2017 13:06:41 UTC+1, Eray Özkural wrote:
That is probably some modelling at the biology level, let us say from a cognitive science/AI perspective, just to clarify. You can also model reproduction or replication of course, but obviously I am referring to a single specimen's behavior, not reproduction, or group behavior, so it is truly irrelevant here. Let us try to engage our common sense, too.Best Wishes,
On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 2:51 PM, Vaibhav Gavane <vaibhav...@gmail.com> wrote:
All animals *reproduce*, and therefore, any "abstract, general, formal
model" of an animal must take this into account. Otherwise, you are
*not* modeling animals at all.
On 1/7/17, Eray Ozkural <exama...@gmail.com> wrote:
> An abstract, general, formal model of what any animal does of course. We
> are not on a biology list, therefore it should also cover artificial
> animals. DNA based sounds wholly irrelevant to my query.
>
> Best Regards,
> On Jan 7, 2017 9:48 AM, "Vaibhav Gavane" <vaibhav...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Can you explain what do you mean by an "animal"? If you don't want a
>> DNA-based definition/model of an "animal" then what do you want?
>>
>> --
>> Before posting, please read this: https://groups.google.com/
>> forum/#!topic/magic-list/_nC7PGmCAE4
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Vaibhav Gavane
Jan 7, 2017, 7:17:04 AM1/7/17
to magic...@googlegroups.com
Reproduction has several consequences on the *behavior* of animals,
whether you consider a single specimen's behavior, or group behavior.
So it is by no means irrelevant; rather I think it is quite central.
>> >> email to magic-list+...@googlegroups.com.
whether you consider a single specimen's behavior, or group behavior.
So it is by no means irrelevant; rather I think it is quite central.
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>
>
>
> --
> Eray Ozkural, PhD. Computer Scientist
> Founder, Gok Us Sibernetik Ar&Ge Ltd.
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ai-philosophy
>
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/magic-list.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Eray Ozkural, PhD. Computer Scientist
> Founder, Gok Us Sibernetik Ar&Ge Ltd.
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ai-philosophy
>
> --
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Eray Ozkural
Jan 7, 2017, 8:29:08 AM1/7/17
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Regardless of what you think, that is false, and I will not debate that insignificant point any longer.
Thanks,
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>
>
>
> --
> Eray Ozkural, PhD. Computer Scientist
> Founder, Gok Us Sibernetik Ar&Ge Ltd.
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ai-philosophy
>
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Eray Ozkural
Jan 9, 2017, 8:32:03 AM1/9/17
to ai-phi...@yahoogroups.com, magic...@googlegroups.com, Ben Goertzel, David Dowe
Since there was some interest in this matter, here is a book written on the history of cybernetics/AI research. It looks quite scholarly, and possibly contains the answer to my query.
What if we had a remarkably intelligent research survey system which would retrieve all semantically relative citations? That would save us a lot of work!
I will make some more concrete remarks later. Google books is searchable, please take a look.
With regards to suggestions about biocentric definitions, I suppose we could do that, but that would be beyond our purpose. I do subscribe to a physicalist/positivist/reductionist philosophy, however, even such a "restrictive" philosophy should not mean we cannot make mathematical generalizations independent of biology. That is why "artificial" in "Artificial Intelligence" is not quite dispensable, we are interested in synthetic animals as much as biological ones. Biological animals do share many common traits and functions, an engineering/simulation model of an animal would have to cover respiratory, circulatory, digestive, reproductive systems in much detail, however, let us restrict our attention to the main control apparatus, i.e., the nervous system and its immediate interfaces, and let us assume that the precious bodily fluids and proteins have been sufficiently modeled elsewhere. All simulation work, however, exudes much cognitive significance and we must not dismiss any such work; for instance, detailed biochemical simulation models of eukaryotic cells exist, that is an active research area.
Best Wishes,
Eray
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