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Re: BEE-L Digest - 12 Feb 2025 to 13 Feb 2025 (#2025-32)
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lin...@tds.net
Feb 14, 2025, 12:11:22 AMFeb 14
to Mark Gilberts, madbees, beekeepingmichael, holm7, Edward & Karin Strenski, phi...@raineshoneyfarm.com
fyi lot of news here Larry
----- Original Message -----
From: "BEE-L automatic digest system" <LIST...@COMMUNITY.LSOFT.COM>
To: BE...@COMMUNITY.LSOFT.COM
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2025 11:00:14 PM
Subject: BEE-L Digest - 12 Feb 2025 to 13 Feb 2025 (#2025-32)
There are 8 messages totaling 251 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Seeley's TF Experiment
2. Tropigeddon
3. From Project Apis m (4)
4. Oxalic acid in cellulose strips
5. The State of the Industry
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 05:33:19 -0800
From: Randy Oliver <ra...@RANDYOLIVER.COM>
Subject: Re: Seeley's TF Experiment
Has Dr Seeley posted an update?
Randy Oliver
Grass Valley, CA
530 277 4450
ScientificBeekeeping.com
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The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned
LISTSERV(R) list management software. For more information, go to:
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 06:45:02 -0800
From: Randy Oliver <ra...@RANDYOLIVER.COM>
Subject: Re: Tropigeddon
>Is there data backing it up and an explanation of the circumstances, or is
this just a preliminary hint at information that will be written up later.
The independent person who is running the trial shared their results to
date, and will be running those hives for a second season.
I do not know whether they will be publishing their study.
>In my opinion, the major and maybe only reason that we have not seen
widespread resistance develop in North America is the commercial business
of raising and transporting bees. if resistance develops, it is promptly
swamped by imported stock.
That's one reason. The main one is that the commercial queen producers
have no incentive to go to the effort to breed for resistant stock, since
the consumer does not demand them. Queen producers have no problem selling
every queen they produce in the spring. If consumers were willing to pay a
premium for resistant stock, or refused to buy non-resistant stock, the
suppliers would respond.
Randy Oliver
Grass Valley, CA
530 277 4450
ScientificBeekeeping.com
***********************************************
The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned
LISTSERV(R) list management software. For more information, go to:
http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:01:35 -0500
From: Deborah Hewitt <dach...@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: From Project Apis m
From the DoJ report that James linked -
>>The illegal use of amitraz puts adulterated honey in the marketplace and contributes to pest resistance threatening honeybee colonies vital for our food production.
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdca/pr/man-pleads-guilty-conspiring-smuggle-pesticides-united-states
https://tinyurl.com/bdfxkse8
Why does the industry turn a blind eye to off-label use? As with other drug smuggling, are they now cutting the product with even worse products?
Debbie Hewitt in Maryland
***********************************************
The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned
LISTSERV(R) list management software. For more information, go to:
http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 10:10:31 -0500
From: Gustav Palan <gusta...@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: From Project Apis m
How many officially reported amitraz poisonings from honey do you have in the US?
Gustav Palan
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 11:23:57 -0500
From: James Fischer <james....@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: From Project Apis m
> Why does the industry turn a blind eye to off-label use?
Let's make clear that this smuggling could NOT be the sole cause of the bee losses at issue - there is simply no way so many operations in the USA and Canada could have all be buying smuggled Taktic from the same guy, nor could the sudden lack of Taktic be the proximate cause of symptoms being reported. There has been work by Texas A&M grad students that found amitraz residue toxicity in combination with a fungicide or two. I hear that most amitraz is being applied via "shop towels", and the dose controlled by "mixing until it is pink", but I am not a first-hand witness, nor do I want to be.
But the blind eye stems from a viewpoint explained eloquently just days ago here on Bee-L - "... the expert beekeeper who is one step ahead of the authorities, understands all the parameters and makes measured judgments that may diverge from the recommendations."
But I am not sure of the level of satire that was intended in the quoted line, which is another layer of the onion to peel. I read it as dripping with sarcasm, but I am an optimist.
Perhaps the worst-case example of this kind of mindset was the 2005 incident where a beekeeper in North Dakota bought 2 110-pound drums of sodium cyanide (as it works really well to fumigate combs for wax moth... and all other living things within a few feet) but failed to secure them properly in the back of his truck, and did not notice when they fell off the truck during his drive home. He reported the loss to the local fire department, knowing that the stuff was dangerous, but (at least claiming to) having no clue that buying it from an industrial supply house did not make it "legal" for a "pesticidal use". It turned out that many larger operations were using cyanide from the same industrial supplier. Fines and consent decrees all around.
https://www.enn.com/articles/2224-epa-says-illegal-sodium-cyanide-sales-centered-in-north-dakota
https://tinyurl.com/4prffrwu
One need not be educated at all to grasp that cyanide is scary stuff, but times have changed - when I was a teenager, I used Methyl-Ethyl Ketone ("MEK" - something so toxic, they banned it for a while) to clean the grease off the gears and chain of my hard-earned Gitane 10-speed, and in summer, I made good money with a brace-and-bit and quarter-sticks of dynamite I bought at the Agway co-op, cracking apart and removing tree stumps. Of course they sold me the dynamite, my father came down with me the first time I bought any, and told them it was "OK".
Today, to a far, far lesser extent, I, along with thousands of others, am guilty of the same exact presumptuous arrogance in a far more trivial and de minimis way by buying and using pure Oxalic Acid from sources other than those who put EPA labels on the package for "bee use".
So, I am I any better than the fellows who bought smuggled Tactik? No, I might be just as guilty of the same offence in the eyes of the EPA, even if I make no errors in dosage, and follow the EPA guidelines and label instructions precisely. But, but, but - no one smuggled anything, the local ACE Hardware openly sells the stuff by the pound on 1st Ave in Manhattan, and my very solid basis for openly claiming "legal use" is that I use that Wood Bleach to keep my woodenware clean and in good shape, as I have yet to be able to teach my bees to wipe their little feet before entering the hive, and they make a mess.
The fact that Oxalic Acid also happens to be toxic to varroa is a real shame, but I do not keep varroa, I keep bees. (That's my story, and I am sticking to it.)
***********************************************
The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned
LISTSERV(R) list management software. For more information, go to:
http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 13:38:51 -0500
From: Jose Villa <cwca...@STARTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: From Project Apis m
Day old update from Blake Shook, beekeeper and rental colony broker in California.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PivipZgukUY
***********************************************
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LISTSERV(R) list management software. For more information, go to:
http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 17:16:13 -0500
From: Peter Borst <peterl...@ICLOUD.COM>
Subject: Oxalic acid in cellulose strips
> the spring OA application did not perform as expected. The intermediate level of efficacy found for the spring treatment could be related to the extent to which the cellulose strips have been nibbled away by the bees. Despite this nibble level was not measured in this study, it was visibly evident and much more accentuated in comparison to the winter and autumn applications. In this regard, previous studies performed by our group showed a statistically negative association between the nibble level and the OA treatment efficacy — Oxalic acid in cellulose strips, Apidologie (2025) 56:21
Dang the nibble level!
Pete
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LISTSERV(R) list management software. For more information, go to:
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 20:38:44 -0500
From: Peter Borst <peterl...@ICLOUD.COM>
Subject: The State of the Industry
normally, I'm not interested in youtube, but that's where this is happening
The State of the Industry with Charles Linder, Blake Shook, & Richard Coy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=dGxjbZPQExQ
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LISTSERV(R) list management software. For more information, go to:
http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html
------------------------------
End of BEE-L Digest - 12 Feb 2025 to 13 Feb 2025 (#2025-32)
***********************************************************
----- Original Message -----
From: "BEE-L automatic digest system" <LIST...@COMMUNITY.LSOFT.COM>
To: BE...@COMMUNITY.LSOFT.COM
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2025 11:00:14 PM
Subject: BEE-L Digest - 12 Feb 2025 to 13 Feb 2025 (#2025-32)
There are 8 messages totaling 251 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Seeley's TF Experiment
2. Tropigeddon
3. From Project Apis m (4)
4. Oxalic acid in cellulose strips
5. The State of the Industry
***********************************************
The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned
LISTSERV(R) list management software. For more information, go to:
http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 05:33:19 -0800
From: Randy Oliver <ra...@RANDYOLIVER.COM>
Subject: Re: Seeley's TF Experiment
Has Dr Seeley posted an update?
Randy Oliver
Grass Valley, CA
530 277 4450
ScientificBeekeeping.com
***********************************************
The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned
LISTSERV(R) list management software. For more information, go to:
http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 06:45:02 -0800
From: Randy Oliver <ra...@RANDYOLIVER.COM>
Subject: Re: Tropigeddon
>Is there data backing it up and an explanation of the circumstances, or is
this just a preliminary hint at information that will be written up later.
The independent person who is running the trial shared their results to
date, and will be running those hives for a second season.
I do not know whether they will be publishing their study.
>In my opinion, the major and maybe only reason that we have not seen
widespread resistance develop in North America is the commercial business
of raising and transporting bees. if resistance develops, it is promptly
swamped by imported stock.
That's one reason. The main one is that the commercial queen producers
have no incentive to go to the effort to breed for resistant stock, since
the consumer does not demand them. Queen producers have no problem selling
every queen they produce in the spring. If consumers were willing to pay a
premium for resistant stock, or refused to buy non-resistant stock, the
suppliers would respond.
Randy Oliver
Grass Valley, CA
530 277 4450
ScientificBeekeeping.com
***********************************************
The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned
LISTSERV(R) list management software. For more information, go to:
http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:01:35 -0500
From: Deborah Hewitt <dach...@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: From Project Apis m
From the DoJ report that James linked -
>>The illegal use of amitraz puts adulterated honey in the marketplace and contributes to pest resistance threatening honeybee colonies vital for our food production.
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdca/pr/man-pleads-guilty-conspiring-smuggle-pesticides-united-states
https://tinyurl.com/bdfxkse8
Why does the industry turn a blind eye to off-label use? As with other drug smuggling, are they now cutting the product with even worse products?
Debbie Hewitt in Maryland
***********************************************
The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned
LISTSERV(R) list management software. For more information, go to:
http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 10:10:31 -0500
From: Gustav Palan <gusta...@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: From Project Apis m
How many officially reported amitraz poisonings from honey do you have in the US?
Gustav Palan
***********************************************
The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned
LISTSERV(R) list management software. For more information, go to:
http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 11:23:57 -0500
From: James Fischer <james....@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: From Project Apis m
> Why does the industry turn a blind eye to off-label use?
Let's make clear that this smuggling could NOT be the sole cause of the bee losses at issue - there is simply no way so many operations in the USA and Canada could have all be buying smuggled Taktic from the same guy, nor could the sudden lack of Taktic be the proximate cause of symptoms being reported. There has been work by Texas A&M grad students that found amitraz residue toxicity in combination with a fungicide or two. I hear that most amitraz is being applied via "shop towels", and the dose controlled by "mixing until it is pink", but I am not a first-hand witness, nor do I want to be.
But the blind eye stems from a viewpoint explained eloquently just days ago here on Bee-L - "... the expert beekeeper who is one step ahead of the authorities, understands all the parameters and makes measured judgments that may diverge from the recommendations."
But I am not sure of the level of satire that was intended in the quoted line, which is another layer of the onion to peel. I read it as dripping with sarcasm, but I am an optimist.
Perhaps the worst-case example of this kind of mindset was the 2005 incident where a beekeeper in North Dakota bought 2 110-pound drums of sodium cyanide (as it works really well to fumigate combs for wax moth... and all other living things within a few feet) but failed to secure them properly in the back of his truck, and did not notice when they fell off the truck during his drive home. He reported the loss to the local fire department, knowing that the stuff was dangerous, but (at least claiming to) having no clue that buying it from an industrial supply house did not make it "legal" for a "pesticidal use". It turned out that many larger operations were using cyanide from the same industrial supplier. Fines and consent decrees all around.
https://www.enn.com/articles/2224-epa-says-illegal-sodium-cyanide-sales-centered-in-north-dakota
https://tinyurl.com/4prffrwu
One need not be educated at all to grasp that cyanide is scary stuff, but times have changed - when I was a teenager, I used Methyl-Ethyl Ketone ("MEK" - something so toxic, they banned it for a while) to clean the grease off the gears and chain of my hard-earned Gitane 10-speed, and in summer, I made good money with a brace-and-bit and quarter-sticks of dynamite I bought at the Agway co-op, cracking apart and removing tree stumps. Of course they sold me the dynamite, my father came down with me the first time I bought any, and told them it was "OK".
Today, to a far, far lesser extent, I, along with thousands of others, am guilty of the same exact presumptuous arrogance in a far more trivial and de minimis way by buying and using pure Oxalic Acid from sources other than those who put EPA labels on the package for "bee use".
So, I am I any better than the fellows who bought smuggled Tactik? No, I might be just as guilty of the same offence in the eyes of the EPA, even if I make no errors in dosage, and follow the EPA guidelines and label instructions precisely. But, but, but - no one smuggled anything, the local ACE Hardware openly sells the stuff by the pound on 1st Ave in Manhattan, and my very solid basis for openly claiming "legal use" is that I use that Wood Bleach to keep my woodenware clean and in good shape, as I have yet to be able to teach my bees to wipe their little feet before entering the hive, and they make a mess.
The fact that Oxalic Acid also happens to be toxic to varroa is a real shame, but I do not keep varroa, I keep bees. (That's my story, and I am sticking to it.)
***********************************************
The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned
LISTSERV(R) list management software. For more information, go to:
http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 13:38:51 -0500
From: Jose Villa <cwca...@STARTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: From Project Apis m
Day old update from Blake Shook, beekeeper and rental colony broker in California.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PivipZgukUY
***********************************************
The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned
LISTSERV(R) list management software. For more information, go to:
http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 17:16:13 -0500
From: Peter Borst <peterl...@ICLOUD.COM>
Subject: Oxalic acid in cellulose strips
> the spring OA application did not perform as expected. The intermediate level of efficacy found for the spring treatment could be related to the extent to which the cellulose strips have been nibbled away by the bees. Despite this nibble level was not measured in this study, it was visibly evident and much more accentuated in comparison to the winter and autumn applications. In this regard, previous studies performed by our group showed a statistically negative association between the nibble level and the OA treatment efficacy — Oxalic acid in cellulose strips, Apidologie (2025) 56:21
Dang the nibble level!
Pete
***********************************************
The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned
LISTSERV(R) list management software. For more information, go to:
http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 20:38:44 -0500
From: Peter Borst <peterl...@ICLOUD.COM>
Subject: The State of the Industry
normally, I'm not interested in youtube, but that's where this is happening
The State of the Industry with Charles Linder, Blake Shook, & Richard Coy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=dGxjbZPQExQ
***********************************************
The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned
LISTSERV(R) list management software. For more information, go to:
http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html
------------------------------
End of BEE-L Digest - 12 Feb 2025 to 13 Feb 2025 (#2025-32)
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