Fake wax

[Greg V]

Back in June I melted off some "wax" off the plastic foundation cut-outs before I tossed them.

Well, some of that "wax" ran around my catching container and cooled off in the corners of my solar melter.
(Note to myself - I have contaminated bars of wax I made back in June.)

Today, as I was cleaning up yet another melted wax spill - I noticed the stark difference between my real wax and that "wax" off the plastic that was still in the corners.

Here they are - the real wax is on the right - the junk wax is on the left.
The junk wax feels greasy and similar to the non-natural candle materials derived from oil and such (e.g. paraffin).

As I am well aware of the fake "wax" issues in the Russian/Ukrainian markets - I am not surprised.

What I am surprised about that the issue is not talked about in the US market.

No wonder the bees hate the plastic foundations - I can only guess how much of that foundation is waxed by paraffin and similar junk.

And another clue - a common advice to wax the plastic foundation at home because the manufacturers "don't put enough wax on them" (even though they claim otherwise).
The real issue maybe that the manufacturers put fake wax onto the plastic OR (as you may guess) import the junk from China (a common issue on the East-Euro markets).

This is NOT bees wax, folks.
This is some oil-derived junk you don't want in your hives.
Bees don't want it, if you have not noticed yet.

If you are on plastic frames - I suggest sacrifice some of those (new ones!!!!) to melt off the "wax coating" and see what you really have on them.
Maybe there is even a way to test what that stuff is (I did not research).

[Greg V]

I also noticed that the real wax and the fake wax don't mix too well - you see on the pictures that the real wax (yellow) is standing out in separate clumps.
Not entirely water and oil - but somewhat similar.

[Paul Zelenski]

Very interesting. I have been talking with a new beekeeper that bought a nuc from me. He got the nuc and 5 frames that I had waxed with my beeswax. The bees drew that comb very quickly and expanded well. He then put on a second box and the bees wouldn’t draw comb.  I told him that he needed to wax the frames. He said he ordered “white beeswax” online and used that to wax the frames. He even started feeding to encourage them, but they’ve been very slow. I’ve always been suspicious of what gets sold online as beeswax. Especially the white or colored stuff. Your evidence would definitely support my theory about why he’s having so many problems. 

On Aug 23, 2024, at 2:39 PM, Greg V <voro...@gmail.com> wrote:

 I also noticed that the real wax and the fake wax don't mix too well - you see on the pictures that the real wax (yellow) is standing out in separate clumps.

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[John Thompson]

I always put a fresh coat on my plastic foundation, no matter how old or new. 

While I'm moving away from plastic, I don't mind using it for supers until I run out of them. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/madbees/82AB6963-0151-45EB-BF34-929444E69B3C%40gmail.com.

[Jack Rademacher]

I haven’t purchased plastic frames or foundation for years but I still have some old plastic frames. This spring I cleaned some of the old deep plastic frames that had very old, dark comb. Just pressure washing doesn’t do the trick. I ended up soaking them in dawn/bleach solution for 3 weeks and then it was still a freaking mess trying to get them cleaned up. I then applied fresh wax to all foundations and installed them near the center of brood boxes. I also used quite a few new frames with full wax foundation. It’s pretty obvious that the bees know the difference and highly prefer the wax foundation. They only fabled at the plastic foundation into the wax foundation was full when they were basically forced to draw it out. I also noticed the plastic supers are not always drawn out thick whereas in the same box most of the wax foundation frames are drawn out way beyond the width of the wood frames. So the moral to the story, buy what the bees prefer. Also, when removing old drawn brood wax (should be done every 4-5 yrs), it’s so much simpler and a lot less messy to just scrape and replace wax foundation. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/madbees/CALTujN-OPvHuWAVicL0d6XeiHxw1HU2R7d1PurneQ3MzyoPJHg%40mail.gmail.com.

[John Thompson]

Hmm. I did notice that the new plastic foundation I used only got drawn out to a uniform depth in most cases. I attributed that to being newly drawn out in many cases. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/madbees/CACjiAXnKOMs1LjjztGbEan6Fouqx9-sBvtUNOayNvpE-FbTZXg%40mail.gmail.com.

[jrad...@gmail.com]

I think most new beekeepers end up with plastic only because that’s what comes with the hive kit they buy and then they can’t figure out why the bees “resist” drawing it out.  Once it’s fully drawn out and if their aren’t any other options for the bees to use they seem to use it.  I’ve been trying to locate all of my drawn plastic where the spring buildup is most likely to occur so I can sell it with nucs. If their new hive is full of plastic, I find the bees are actually more likely to work the plastic.  It’s a slow process to get rid of the plastic but I’m also an ethical nuc seller and try not to sell nucs with old (possibly contaminated) foundation.  I really want the new beekeepers to be successful.  I offer to mentor each nuc buyer and even go to their apiary to help them.  Success isn’t selling the nuc.  Success is hearing that the bees survived the winter!

 

My opinion is obvious;

Plastic foundation – Bad

Natural wax foundation – GOOD!!!

 

From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of John Thompson
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2024 8:13 AM
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [madbees] Re: Fake wax

 

Hmm. I did notice that the new plastic foundation I used only got drawn out to a uniform depth in most cases. I attributed that to being newly drawn out in many cases. 

 

On Sat, Aug 24, 2024, 9:01 AM Jack Rademacher <jrad...@gmail.com> wrote:

I haven’t purchased plastic frames or foundation for years but I still have some old plastic frames. This spring I cleaned some of the old deep plastic frames that had very old, dark comb. Just pressure washing doesn’t do the trick. I ended up soaking them in dawn/bleach solution for 3 weeks and then it was still a freaking mess trying to get them cleaned up. I then applied fresh wax to all foundations and installed them near the center of brood boxes. I also used quite a few new frames with full wax foundation. It’s pretty obvious that the bees know the difference and highly prefer the wax foundation. They only fabled at the plastic foundation into the wax foundation was full when they were basically forced to draw it out. I also noticed the plastic supers are not always drawn out thick whereas in the same box most of the wax foundation frames are drawn out way beyond the width of the wood frames. So the moral to the story, buy what the bees prefer. Also, when removing old drawn brood wax (should be done every 4-5 yrs), it’s so much simpler and a lot less messy to just scrape and replace wax foundation. 

On Fri, Aug 23, 2024 at 7:12 PM John Thompson <johntho...@gmail.com> wrote:

I always put a fresh coat on my plastic foundation, no matter how old or new. 

 

While I'm moving away from plastic, I don't mind using it for supers until I run out of them. 

 

On Fri, Aug 23, 2024, 8:07 PM Paul Zelenski <paulze...@gmail.com> wrote:

Very interesting. I have been talking with a new beekeeper that bought a nuc from me. He got the nuc and 5 frames that I had waxed with my beeswax. The bees drew that comb very quickly and expanded well. He then put on a second box and the bees wouldn’t draw comb.  I told him that he needed to wax the frames. He said he ordered “white beeswax” online and used that to wax the frames. He even started feeding to encourage them, but they’ve been very slow. I’ve always been suspicious of what gets sold online as beeswax. Especially the white or colored stuff. Your evidence would definitely support my theory about why he’s having so many problems. 

On Aug 23, 2024, at 2:39 PM, Greg V <voro...@gmail.com> wrote:

 I also noticed that the real wax and the fake wax don't mix too well - you see on the pictures that the real wax (yellow) is standing out in separate clumps.
Not entirely water and oil - but somewhat similar.

On Friday, August 23, 2024 at 2:36:26 PM UTC-5 Greg V wrote:

Back in June I melted off some "wax" off the plastic foundation cut-outs before I tossed them.

Well, some of that "wax" ran around my catching container and cooled off in the corners of my solar melter.
(Note to myself - I have contaminated bars of wax I made back in June.)

Today, as I was cleaning up yet another melted wax spill - I noticed the stark difference between my real wax and that "wax" off the plastic that was still in the corners.

Here they are - the real wax is on the right - the junk wax is on the left.
The junk wax feels greasy and similar to the non-natural candle materials derived from oil and such (e.g. paraffin).

As I am well aware of the fake "wax" issues in the Russian/Ukrainian markets - I am not surprised.

What I am surprised about that the issue is not talked about in the US market.

No wonder the bees hate the plastic foundations - I can only guess how much of that foundation is waxed by paraffin and similar junk.

And another clue - a common advice to wax the plastic foundation at home because the manufacturers "don't put enough wax on them" (even though they claim otherwise).
The real issue maybe that the manufacturers put fake wax onto the plastic OR (as you may guess) import the junk from China (a common issue on the East-Euro markets).

This is NOT bees wax, folks.
This is some oil-derived junk you don't want in your hives.
Bees don't want it, if you have not noticed yet.

If you are on plastic frames - I suggest sacrifice some of those (new ones!!!!) to melt off the "wax coating" and see what you really have on them.
Maybe there is even a way to test what that stuff is (I did not research).

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[Greg V]

While keeping in mind - the ***commercial*** wax foundation can be just as bad and contaminated - examples are many.

What they sell as 100% pure beeswax is a mix of whatever - happens way too often.
Remember, lots of "pure" wax nowadays is sourced from China.

Your own foundation (yes, you can make it) or foundation-less is the best and presents no doubts.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/madbees/010c01daf62e%24780bf8f0%246823ead0%24%40gmail.com.

[BETSY TRUE]

Do dealers sell foundation rollers? At stonefield village they had on display, a foundation roller. How would you make the sheets to impress?

On Aug 24, 2024, at 12:44 PM, Greg V <voro...@gmail.com> wrote:



<~WRD0000.jpg>

Well, some of that "wax" ran around my catching container and cooled off in the corners of my solar melter.
(Note to myself - I have contaminated bars of wax I made back in June.)

Today, as I was cleaning up yet another melted wax spill - I noticed the stark difference between my real wax and that "wax" off the plastic that was still in the corners.

Here they are - the real wax is on the right - the junk wax is on the left.
The junk wax feels greasy and similar to the non-natural candle materials derived from oil and such (e.g. paraffin).

<~WRD0000.jpg>

As I am well aware of the fake "wax" issues in the Russian/Ukrainian markets - I am not surprised.

What I am surprised about that the issue is not talked about in the US market.

No wonder the bees hate the plastic foundations - I can only guess how much of that foundation is waxed by paraffin and similar junk.

And another clue - a common advice to wax the plastic foundation at home because the manufacturers "don't put enough wax on them" (even though they claim otherwise).
The real issue maybe that the manufacturers put fake wax onto the plastic OR (as you may guess) import the junk from China (a common issue on the East-Euro markets).

This is NOT bees wax, folks.
This is some oil-derived junk you don't want in your hives.
Bees don't want it, if you have not noticed yet.

If you are on plastic frames - I suggest sacrifice some of those (new ones!!!!) to melt off the "wax coating" and see what you really have on them.
Maybe there is even a way to test what that stuff is (I did not research).

<~WRD0000.jpg>

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/madbees/CABg%3DAC403ncEQiKM%2BrHidokYkUb7%3DtCgN_%3Dmif1kMsueB2WRZg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Greg V]

This gizmo right here is plenty good for the hobbyists.

Many choices to review.

No need at all to spend thousands of bucks for the rollers.

https://www.amazon.com/Luqeeg-Silicone-Foundation-Beekeeping-Accessory/dp/B0B1VGJDLL/ref=asc_df_B0B1VGJDLL/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=692875362841&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14412025824353442043&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9051947&hvtargid=pla-2281435177818&psc=1&mcid=87778b1b5b2533188f08e409842fdb9e&hvocijid=14412025824353442043-B0B1VGJDLL-&hvexpln=73&gad_source=1

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[John Thompson]

The reviews say that mold is drone cell size. 

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[Greg V]

Like I said - Many choices to review.

Obviously, the worker size sets are available in many choices too.

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[Greg V]

I even got myself a UV light today from Menards.
The paraffin will glow in dark room when illuminated by the UV.
The natural wax will NOT glow (but any contamination in it, including the surface contamination will glow).

In all, the UV test confirmed my fake wax sample to be - fake wax.

[Lloyd St. Bees]

Thank you for sharing this very cool observation. Do you have photos of the wax under the UV light? I am also interested in knowing what manufacturer the foundation came from.

There are a few comments here about plastic foundation and frames. I want to say that we see no issues with the bees utilizing all plastic frames in our operation. We use all plastic frames with heavy wax straight from the manufacturer in about 95% of our colonies with no issues. Reasons for why colonies refuse to draw frames centers around their population, temperature, need, management and resources. We always encourage folks to feed their bees aggressively if they are trying to draw many frames of foundation. Colonies that have received a deep box of 10 frames of foundation at this point in the season are using 6 to 8 gallons of light syrup to draw the frames. Don't fear the plastic, embrace it.

Trevor

Lloyd St Bees

[Greg V]

I don't know the exact source - no markings on the frames.

These were hand downs to me.

As far as the UV glow - my phone did not capture well what actually observed the glow caused by the UV illumination.

The ball is the fake wax on this picture, included.

It is very obvious when you actually look at it (a UV light is a mere $10-20 investment).

The issue is not the plastic per se - more general issue is that commercially available wax (including the very wax foundation) will often be contaminated or be just the fake wax outright.

We ought to know the facts - then up to the beekeeper about any action to pursue or not.

I suppose once you are at 100% plastic - that gives bees no choice.

Since I am 80-90% natural comb I can tell - the bees will always take the natural option first and I prefer it this way.

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[John Thompson]

Greg, bring the wax and light to the next meeting if you can. 

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[Greg V]

Sure.

The UV testing does require a dark room.

But yes - it is pretty cool to see - the UV testing has many more applications to it, not just wax.
Most any organic contamination will show.

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[Greg V]

I have a piece of some commercially sold foundation here.
It is pretty clear this is NOT pure wax.
Question is rather what % of real wax is present in this "wax"?

See how the never used once cell bottoms of this "wax foundation" glow.

[Greg V]

And to compare, the bottoms of never used natural comb do not glow.

[Greg V]

Got a hold of good quality wax foundation from a reliable source* (imported from Euro).

Should be visually obvious which is which - commonly sold US sample vs. the imported sample.
Judge for yourself.
Make informed decisions.

*the reliable source (love it or hate it - I am being objective and the credit is due where it belongs):

Swarm Traps For Sale | Horizontal Hives

www.horizontalhive.com

[Jack Rademacher]

I’ve never seen wax foundation that light color. Almost looks transparent 

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[Paul Zelenski]

There are different ‘grades’ of foundation too. The stuff designed for comb honey is ultra thin. I wonder if that’s what that is. 

On Sep 20, 2024, at 12:04 PM, Jack Rademacher <jrad...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Greg V]

Actually - it makes sense to me.

Those light samples I have very well could be the "comb honey foundation".

Very well the low thickness of that foundation (and the low strength) can be a reason for the additives.

If so, this makes it even worse - artificial stuff in the wax one is supposed to chew on.

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