Queenless Hives

[Jeanne Hansen]

One of my larger hives went queenless early in the season.  It was bringing in plenty of spring honey, so I left it alone.  I am amazed at how well it is doing, without a queen.

Has anyone else left a hive queenless for an extended period?  What were your experiences??

JEANNE 

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Jeanne Hansen

824 Jacobson Ave

Madison,WI

608-244-7684 

[Greg V]

They do well until they run out of bees.

This being said - nothing wrong with using a colony for honey crop and then running it down.

Just have enough colonies and exploit them.

I made a few colonies to requeen themselves (same as temporarily queen-less) - just to set them up for the July crop.

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[Jeanne Hansen]

Thanks for your reply.

I'm wondering why, in my queenless hive, I have frames filled with capped brood in worker-sized cells.  The cappings are NOT humped up as they are supposed to be for cells containing drone larva.  Today, I found a capped queen cell!!  What is going on??

JEANNE

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[John Thompson]

Maybe you simply didn't spot the queen?

A small queen that mixed in with the others and they made her lay to supercede her? Just throwing stuff out there.

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[Paul Zelenski]

Yeah. You didn’t say how or why they were queenless or how long they were queenless. 

Is it possible that you checked while they were working on a secret queen and looked queenless? Possibly made a intercaste queen and now she’s getting replaced? Or they are swarming because they are crowded with all that honey? 

It’s also possible that with enough drone brood packed together it doesn’t look as domed as normal drone brood. Is it a good pattern or spotty or kinda weird looking or just good looking brood? 

Sounds like a fun little mystery to keep an eye on. 

On Jul 10, 2024, at 6:05 PM, John Thompson <johntho...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Greg V]

More than once I was not able to easily find a queen in such small hives as these pictured.

They would even hide in the entrance hole.

And then other queens are just black and small - go and find an unmarked one.

Imagine finding the same in a full size hive.

More often than not the "queenless" hives are not really that.

Virtually last weekend I pulled a test frame from a hive where the successfully introduced queen just would not start laying.

The test result reported - "queen-right" and I left them alone.

If not for that - it was just another "queenless" hive.

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[Paul Zelenski]

When in doubt, add a frame of eggs is always the best advice. 

On Jul 10, 2024, at 6:37 PM, Greg V <voro...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Jeanne Hansen]

Thanks for the input.  I guess I should keep on waiting and see what happens.

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[Jeanne Hansen]

Greg, you wrote " I pulled a test frame from a hive.

The test result reported - "queen-right"

This is so interesting.  What exactly was the test?  What was the test result??

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[Jeanne Hansen]

Paul, have you ever added a frame of eggs and the bees DID build a queen cell?

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[Greg V]

Why, this is the same old test discussed many times over - a frame that contains eggs and very young larvae.

Paul Z. just referred to it.

Desperate for a queen bees will start building queen cells on those eggs/larvae - negative "queen-right" test result

The queen-right bees - will not - positive "queen-right" test result.

That IS the entire test - nothing new.

One caveat - a colony with laying workers (if it gets to that stage) may think they are "queen-right".

This is a case of a false positive "queen-right" test result - though this does not happen often and the laying worker colonies are easily identified just by inspection.

Here is my test frame (picture) - just another good reason to always be running small nuclear colonies on a side.

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[Paul Zelenski]

Exactly this. 

And yeah. I’ve had numerous numerous hives make queen cells with the eggs. It’s especially helpful when I make my nucs in the spring. I used to wait extra time for the ones without brood to see if she was still on the way. This would sometimes result in a good (albeit slow) queen, sometimes laying workers and sometimes eggs for a new queen after I was sure they failed at their first attempt. Now I just out on eggs when they ‘should’ have brood. It doesn’t hurt anything if they have a queen and might even help centralize the brood eat and her laying around this frame of brood. If you’ve got the frames to spare, there really is no downside. Just another reason having more than one hive is beneficial. 

Another example. I had a failing queen so left them with all their queen cells. They decided to swarm. I checked a couple weeks later. Neither the swarm or the main hive had any eggs or brood. Did they swarm with the bad queen? Did both queens get eaten on their mating flights? Or did they swarm with a virgin and they both just needed more time. Well, I have them each a frame of eggs and went on vacation for a week with no worries. They’ll either be queen right when I get back or well underway raising a new queen (and the open larvae will stifle any laying workers and reset that clock). 

If there are laying workers, they often will not raise queens with the first frame because those laying workers are mimicking the pheromones of a queen. It’s the same reason you can’t just give them a caged queen. But, sometimes they will. And, if you really want to, you can add a new frame every few days or every week. Eventually the pheromones from the open brood will shut down the laying workers (it’s actually the brood pheromones, not the queen pheromones that suppresses the ovaries in workers) and they will begin raising a queen. Or once they do that you could introduce a queen. It’s resource intensive and time consuming, but eventually works every time. Might not be worth the effort depending on the hive and your goals, but it’s definitely a fun process to watch and learn some things. 

So, when in doubt, add some eggs :)

On Jul 11, 2024, at 9:02 AM, Greg V <voro...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Jeanne Hansen]

Ah ha!  Thanks for the clarification.  I didn't recognize your terminology.  

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[Jeanne Hansen]

Hmm, yes, resource intensive and time consuming!  I may just do like Gary baisa mentioned, in the future, and let the queenless hive bring in some honey for me.

Thanks for all the input.

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[Paul Zelenski]

Just be careful once robbing season starts. They will be the first to be robbed. 

On Jul 11, 2024, at 10:53 AM, Jeanne Hansen <jeanneh...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Greg V]

A truly queen-less colony (at this point) will run down to about nothing by the end of July.

At which point it should be decommissioned - honey harvested, remaining bees dumped, equipment reclaimed.

The end of it.

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[Jeanne Hansen]

OK, yes, good tips from both of you!!

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[Janelle Hillman]

I have had a perpetually confusing hive this season as well, which appears to be queenless at the moment, so this was a very helpful thread to read. Mine also switched into super productive foraging mode, it is fascinating that this can occur without a queen.  

 Mine does have a capped queen cell, but according to my time table it should have hatched by now. 

Has anyone ever experienced a dud capped queen cell? I'm considering requeening but maybe waiting another week if my time table was wrong or if weather may be delaying things.

Janelle

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[Tom Borchardt]

I do this all the time, with about 80% success rate.  Simplest and easiest way to fix a queenless hive.  I have even started a new colony with just a couple frames of eggs and bees, although this was an experiment and I do not recommend it as a standard practice.

Tom B

Virus-free.www.avast.com

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[Paul Zelenski]

Yes, ‘dud’ queen cells can happen. Especially if there is a brood disease or high mite load. Most things that can kill or damage other brood can kill or damage queens too. 

On Jul 11, 2024, at 12:20 PM, Janelle Hillman <januaryf...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[John Thompson]

Bees without brood have nothing better to do than forage. So that's your big surge in honey production. 

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[Greg V]

Dud capped queen cell - these happen more often than people may think, due to a variety of contexts.

However, IF the current colony is still populous and dense *around the cell* - probability of a dud cell is lower.

If your timeline has already expired - with every passing day now, the probability of your queen cell being empty or containing dead material is going up fast.

So again, you should run the "queen-right" test ASAP.

Based on that you'd know your next step.

I run plenty of available, locally-mated queens through the summer if there is a need.

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[Joseph Bessetti]

What a lot of people fail to recognize is that a capped queen cell in a hive with no capped worker brood is pretty much always a dud.  No amount of hoping will make these viable.

Bees will even make funky “queen” cells over a laying worker drone sometimes.

Joe

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 11, 2024, at 12:26 PM, Paul Zelenski <paulze...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Jeanne Hansen]

It sounds to me that adding a frame of brood and eggs only works if there are no eggs/brood from laying workers.  In other words, the moment the queen ought to be mated, by the calendar, stick in a frame of fresh brood.  By the time you see that the hive is queenless, it is too late.  Right?

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[Paul Zelenski]

It’s only too late if there are laying workers. As long as they still elective themselves to be queenless it will work fine. 

On Jul 12, 2024, at 5:59 PM, Jeanne Hansen <jeanneh...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Joseph Bessetti]

Sometimes they will start queen cells even if there are laying workers, though brood may have to be added a couple times.  

By the time you add four or so frames of brood to maybe get a queen and a decent restart to the hive, you can usually reflect and conclude that just making a good split would have been the better, and faster, strategy.  It all depends on whether you want another hive or just want to see if you can pull that laying worker hive back from the brink.

You can also make a spilt, and  in a week after the cells are capped put a frame with a couple capped queen cells into the laying worker hive. This way you don’t have to hope they make a cell themselves. Assuming the new queen gets mated and returns, she’ll start laying and the laying workers will eventually shut down.

Joe

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On Jul 12, 2024, at 11:18 PM, Paul Zelenski <paulze...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Jeanne Hansen]

Yes, it has been fun, and educational, playing around and fiddling around with a queenless hive like this.

I like Joe's suggestion of adding a frame with queen cells to a hive of laying workers.  As soon as I saw I had laying workers, I split a queenright hive, in order to get a new queen.  There were several frames with queen cells.  What a good use for them!

JEANNE

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[Greg V]

I routinely dump LWs hives and move on.

They are time sinks.

Got no time.

Time is best spent elsewhere.

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[BETSY TRUE]

How do you dump them. Won’t the LWs infect a neighboring hive? Or will they be reformed in a strongly queened hive? Or do you sacrifice them?

On Jul 13, 2024, at 6:51 PM, Greg V <voro...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Joseph Bessetti]

Their egg laying is inhibited by brood pheromone, so yeah you might call that “reformed”.  The workers in a queenright hive are also very good at removing laying worker eggs.  

When I started beekeeping I had a queenless hive with laying workers, but I had no idea what that was at the time.  I watched during a lengthy “inspection” as these odd- looking workers backed down into cells.  I’ve not seen it described anywhere, but there is a morphology difference that I observed, but they don’t look like queens at all.  A quick Google search and a frame of brood later the hive had a laying queen again.  

Joe

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 13, 2024, at 6:58 PM, 'BETSY TRUE' via madbees <mad...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

 How do you dump them. Won’t the LWs infect a neighboring hive? Or will they be reformed in a strongly queened hive? Or do you sacrifice them?

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[Greg V]

All these stories of LWs infecting other hives are overrated.

Whether the LWs get reformed I don't know and don't care.

As long as there is no damage to other hives - that's all that matters.

Still, you have to really try hard to do it - by doing everything possible wrong.

Virtually last night I checked on a tiny nuc - the plan was to boost it by a dumped stronger queen-less nuc.

All worked as planned - the tiny nuc is still queen-right but is much stronger now.

The weak queen-right and strong queen-less units were side-by-side.

How do you do it?

You securely plug the queen-less hive (important!).

Then you dump the bees anywhere (not important). I did not even bother walking away.

You do not remove the plugged hive (important!).

Might as well remove all the frames from the dumped hive, as you dump bees, and use the frames elsewhere as needed (optional).

The dumped queen-less bees return to their hive but they can not enter it - so they congregate on it and *cluster* - that is the goal, to nail them down temporarily and make them feel like homeless orphans.

Now you can walk away.

In a matter of 1-2 days the cluster will gradually, bee by bee, hop over into the neighboring queen-right hive and join them peacefully and behave well.

There will be no precipitous running over a weak colony where the queen is at risk.

Mission accomplished.

This is just one method.

You can slice and dice it many ways.

If no particular weak hive is standing by - this very method can still be used to gradually disperse a strong queen-less hive across the entire apiary of weak hives.

If the queen-less hive is itself weak, it does not matter - just dump them and walk away (the hive can be plugged or moved - does not matter).

If the neighboring hives are strong, it does not matter - just dump and walk away (the hive can be plugged or moved - does not matter).

If you dump a queen-less hive, it makes sense to spray them with oxalic acid while at it - to minimize the mite transfer.

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[Paul Zelenski]

I have dumped a strong LW nuc right in front of the neighboring weak queen right nuc and had them kill that queen. So, it is possible. But the LW was significantly stronger so they were able to take it over and it felt like home to them. 

I’ve also dumped LW bees in front of qr nucs and had the LW enter for awhile and lay side by side with the the queen for a time until the brood pheromones suppressed them. 

These are both very unusual and only happen when trying to add bees to quite weak nucs. A normal hive will allow the workers and nurse bees to enter and refuse entrance to the laying workers. Or they will remove the lw eggs. There was a paper recently that said all hives have some laying workers but the eggs get removed. I’ve definitely seen drone brood in supers above excluders or when it is unlikely the queen travelled all the way up there, suggesting some workers laid it. 

Nothing in beekeeping is as cut and dry as the boons would have you believe. 

On Jul 13, 2024, at 9:21 PM, Greg V <voro...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Jeanne Hansen]

Thank you Paul!  Yes, I dumped a large hive of laying workers, near a hive with a virgin queen that was not yet mated.  The laying workers over-whelmed that hive.

Here is another way to handle a laying worker hive, suggested by Liz Vanosky of the Rock Co Bee club:

Go ahead and buy a fresh queen.  When it arrives, set it aside.  Remove the queen from a second hive and immediately drop it into the laying worker hive.  That queen is fat and strong.  She has just finished laying an egg, and she is primed and ready to lay a lot more eggs.  She looks like a queen, acts like a queen, and best of all, smells like a queen.  The laying workers  accept her.

Then take your purchased queen and introduce her as usual to the second hive.  Liz claims this works as often as not.

Beekeeping is fun!!

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[Greg V]

......... I dumped a large hive of laying workers, near a hive with a virgin queen that was not yet mated.  The laying workers over-whelmed that hive..........

This is exactly the thing to NOT do.

I already offered you my methods.
They work.

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[Greg V]

Nothing is cut and dry - hence one needs to understand the logic behind every method offered and the context where it works (not blindly copy it).

On Sun, Jul 14, 2024 at 12:06 AM Paul Zelenski <paulze...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Jeanne Hansen]

Greg, you are so right about understanding the logic behind each method.  It sounds to me like Queenlessness would be an excellent topic for a meeting!!

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[Scott Mckay]

I have a gentleman in Avoca that has bees in his wall/ceiling.

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[Scott Mckay]

His name is Rich 608-234-1319. The barn/cabin is in Avoca, WI.

Here is the message he sent me.

Here are some pics. The bees are entering the barn at the roofline I believe and are coming down the wall and into the cabin by a window.

[Paul Zelenski]

Yup, that is always my advice. If you don’t understand why you’re doing something, the odds of making a mistake you don’t even realize is a mistake is high. Minor details such as location and strength of the different hives as well as timing and other factors can vary outcome’s significance. 

O had never thought about leaving the hive but closing it. That’s an interesting way to do it that has a lot of logic. Of course you’ll want to time it when we’re not going to have violent thunderstorms when they’re hanging outside th hive. 

On Jul 14, 2024, at 10:49 AM, Greg V <voro...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Greg V]

I would not even worry about the storm - clustered bees are hanging so tight, they need to be power-washed off if it comes to it.

They also can stuff themselves under the hive or between the hives.

In my recent case the homeless bees wedged themselves between the hives and I left them there to think about life (with predictable result - all gone in a couple of days).

If the hives are in the woods or behind strategically placed wind breaks - the storms matter little.

Certainly, one needs to consider the exact hives' placement and go from there.

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[Tim Aure]

Another option is to put the queen in a push in cage in the hive that has LW's. She'll lay in that hive protected producing the necessary pheromones that will help her to be accepted. There are numerous alternatives but understanding the reasoning behind those alternatives gives wisdom as we endeavor to keep our hobby protected. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 14, 2024, at 10:09 PM, Greg V <voro...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Johnny Adams]

If they need a queen they will make one within 15 days. Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean it’s not there!