Electric heating for hives

[sbjoh...@aol.com]

Anyone have experience with heating their hives?  In my five years of hobby beekeeping my colonies have have had very low success getting through the winters.  Thus I am interested in helping them stay warm and dry, fight their diseases, and use less honey in the winter.  I also admit that I want to avoid the sadness and cost of these repeated deaths.

Last year I purchased some electric warming pads, temp sensors and a controller on eBay with the thought of providing gentle warmth in my several hives.  These parts operate on 12 volts dc reducing the issues of outdoor wiring.  My idea includes using a nearby shed to house the power supply (to convert the household AC power to 12vdc) and the temp controller (which reads the sensors in the hives and switches the heating pads on/off . 

Unfortunately I did not implement this system in time for this winter - hadn't yet run AC power to the shed.  In spite of several improvements to my windbreaks, moisture control, etc. the colonies again perished, so I feel a greater urgency to get this experiment going this year.  I figure a good time to install the heating pads and sensors will be early spring when I disassemble and clean out the hive bodies in readiness for the new bee packages.  I've ordered early packages, so perhaps getting it in operation right from the start might help in case of a cold snap, or at least help the bees get as early a buildup as possible. 

I think I will attach the warming pad on the underside of the screened bottom in the center so that the warmth can rise up into the hive through the screen. 
And perhaps put the sensor at the top of the lowest hive body (brood box) an inch of two from a corner, so I am measuring the ambient temp inside and not in the center which is more likely to warmed by the bees.  I'm thinking I will set the controller to turn on the heater whenever the sensor is at 55 deg F or less.

Anyone have any experience in this area?  Opinions on my design ideas?  Thank you.

Steve

sbjoh...@aol.com
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[Luke N.]

My dad and I built a bee barn, insulated it with styrofoam and heated it with a small ceramic heater.  He lives up in Superior where it gets a bit colder than here.  His bees survive the winter in the barn.  We moved the hives into the bee barn after the temperature stayed below 30 F.  Then took them out in the spring when it got into the 30s.  The bees did fine.  I'd be careful of keeping the temperature to high.  Around the mid 30s work well, the bees don't have to expend much energy to keep their cluster at 40 F and they also aren't thinking it's spring and raising brood and flying out where they would freeze to death. 

I would go with a space heater over a heating mat as it is easier to keep a shed a certain temperature than it would be with a mat.  Also if you didn't want to heat the entire shed you could partition a small part off and just heat that area.  You'd want to make sure they have proper ventilation or you would be adding problems, not taking them away. 

That's my experience with keeping bees up north.  Here in Madison my hives do fine outside. 

Luke

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[sbjoh...@aol.com]

Luke wrote:

Around the mid 30s work well, the bees don't have to expend much energy to keep their cluster at 40 F and they also aren't thinking it's spring and raising brood and flying out where they would freeze to death. 

Thank you for that excellent point.  Too warm would be a problem -  they still need to think it is winter.  Glad you raised that issue.

In my case the hives need to stay outside - the shed cannot accommodate them.

[N. Andersen]

I guess I'd like to know more about your disease prevention practices before commenting on heating.  Temperature means little if your approach to mites and nozema is ineffective.

[Paul Zelenski]

While I like the idea of giving your bees any advantage you can to help them through the winter, I'm not sure heating is worthwhile. From what I've read, cold doesn't kill bees other things do. And, we should keep in mind that bees do not heat their hive, they only heat the cluster. My understanding is that as long as the bees are healthy and have enough to eat, they can deal well with the cold. It might be worth looking at the health of hives going into winter, the ventilation, wind break, etc. to find the difficulty your bees are having. 

But, if you want to heat them, give it a try and let us know how it works. There are a few considerations to keep in mind as you make your plans. Is a heating pad under the screen the best place? Will the heat get to the bees, which will cluster farther and farther towards the top? Will it create odd drafts that might make things more awkward for the bees? Would the heatiing pad on the side of the hive be better to give them a warm side to cluster against? You will also want to consider the moisture level. Will it create too much moisture? Dry things too much? It will also be hard to place the temp sensor. What temp are you trying to measure? I guess you want the inside hive temp, but not close enough that it is reading the heat coming off the cluster. 

I guess I don't really have any good advice to add, but lots of questions if you do give it a try.

On a similar topic, when you put them in a barn, do you close the entrances, or just count on the cold temp to keep them clustered?

[sbjoh...@aol.com]

N. Anderson wrote:

>I guess I'd like to know more about your disease prevention practices before
>commenting on heating.  Temperature means little if your approach to mites and nozema is ineffective.

I treat for mites with powdered sugar and strips if the count gets high, and twice a year with fumagilin-B for nosema.  No other diseases have been visible upon inspection, but undoubtably the colony's relative health is a factor.  Naturally a strong, vigorous colony has a much better chance to survive the extremes of winter.  I feel I've done what I can with treatments and it has not been enough - the colonies are not proving strong enough to make it through the winter.  

Since the bees are only dying in late winter, in dry hives with spite of lots of food remaining, it seems to me that the cold is an important variable.  And it is one I can help control.

[sbjoh...@aol.com]

Paul wrote:

>But, if you want to heat them, give it a try and let us know how it works.

I appreciate your open views on the idea.  I've just fielded several direct emails that weren't so accepting of my experiment and said rather harshly that my idea is wrong-headed.  To quote one of them, "if your bees are dying then you should quit until you know what you are doing."  I really doubt I am the only person struggling with this problem.  And naturally I think I do know what I am doing, but will certainly admit there is a huge amount I have yet to learn. 

You mention wind breaks and ventilation... my hives are each surrounded on three sides and the top by a rectangular enclosure made of styrofoam.  The front of the enclosure (south) is open.  Ventilation seems good at this point.. screened bottom about half open, moisture absorbing cover with air passages out to the edges.  You could feel warm air moving through, up and out of the hives when it first got cold in the fall.  And later when I opened the hives to see why no bees were flying that warmer day it got up above freezing, the bee bodies were lining the bottom or in still in place in the cluster.  All this with food nearby and no signs of condensation.

I've concluded that in spite of my best efforts my bees have just not been strong enough to get through the winter.  While doing all I can to help their health I figure why not also try and make the temperature more moderate?  If that doesn't do the trick then I think I'm done trying.

[lindhl tds.net]

Canadian wraps are used to cover 4 hives which are palletized.  This is a black blanket that absorbs heat.  It is a passive assist to heating the hives.  Even it will not work if the hives are well fed and healthy ie Low mite levels.  They cost about 70 dollars in quantity lots. 

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Larry Lindokken

[lindhl tds.net]

not well fed

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Larry Lindokken

[William Palmer]

Hi SB. This past August drought was the cause of a lot of problems.The lack of nectar coming in caused the Queen to stop laying.   The mite levels got high and most of us (including me) did not start feeding or treating for mites.

    The Golden Rod and fall Asters were light on nectar .  The queen got a late start on producing winter bees. That being said, we went into winter with a small number of winter bees. These winter bees are the survivors that get the hive through winter.  Too many bees and they eat up all the stores of food.  Too little bees and they can not generate enough heat to keep the colony warm.  

   In mid February the Queen starts to lay egg. The cluster must raise the temp to 98 degrees. This is the time they consume a lot of food.  Some times the cold weather makes moving to other frames of honey not possible. The hive dies of starvation, with lots of food close at hand.

     There was a beekeeper from Rock County who used light bulb for a heat source in his wintering attempts to keep bees alive.   I,m not sure how that worked out.

                   Good Luck         William Palmer       East Troy Honey. 

[N. Andersen]

Sorry that you got some nasty e-mails, but I have a couple of suggestions.  Some folks may totally disagree with me, but these are things you might want to try. 1)  I've never had good luck with powder sugar as a mite treatment.  Maybe be more aggressive in that battle.  2)  Close the screen bottom board completely.  Especially this year, the winds have been horrific.  Wind breaks, with adequate ventilation are usually good enough.  Some folks go a bit overboard on ventilation.  3)  Be careful with styrofoam.  A hive completely surrounded in styrofoam can sometimes retain moisture worse than one without.  Just suggestions.  You just have to keep experimenting.  

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 12:06:11 PM UTC-6, Steve wrote:

[Diane Packett]

I hate to hear that you've had some nasty emails, at least one of which said you didn't know what you were doing. I hope to start beekeeping this year, and this makes me very reluctant to post questions to the group. I can't speak for anyone, of course, but I was at a Dane County Beekeepers meeting last week, and many people reported bees dying. I do know from life experiences that you learn as much from failures as from successes, so I appreciate hearing your stories and the advice of other group members. My husband actually wanted to build a styrofoam sleeve for my hives (when I get them) for next winter, so it's good to hear people's opinions about how they might retain to much moisture, which was my thought. I wish I had some ideas for you, but I don't know what I'm doing, since I haven't done anything yet. Good luck!

 

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 12:06:11 PM UTC-6, Steve wrote:

[capitalbeesupply tds.net]

This winter I had a very small number colonies that I thought had the
best chance. They were (note were) very strong colonies, tested and
treated for mites, treated for nosema, fed from September on to get up
to make certain of winter weight, wrapped with NOD winter wraps,
ventilation fine with minimal to no condensation, granulated sugar on
top in a rim...about the best opportunity they could have I thought.
They were doing ok...I peeked at them on Sunday and 2 of these big
colonies had died out...still had big numbers of bees, plenty of
honey, but the cluster had fragmented/split in both hives. I don't
know exactly why. It was as if one half decided to move and the others
didn't go along or maybe the weather changed too fast in the process
and they chilled??? Very depressing to see these big hives done for.
The remaining one is also a big hive (meaning what is left between two
deep hive bodies there are bees clustered on the center 6
frames...cluster bigger than a football, smaller than a basketball).
This hive had been in three deeps. The third deep were full of honey
to start the winter. The second deep started winter full expect for a
small area in bottom of the middle 3 frames. The bees started and
stayed up in the third deep until two weeks ago and when they had
pretty much emptied the third deep and had taken some granulated sugar
too. When I checked them then I thought the hive died out since there
were a lot of dead bees in cells and between frames clustered in the
third now-empty deep. I pulled the empty third off and there I could
see bees were at the top of the first/bottom of the second deep which
is still fairly full of honey to my surprise. It seemed they too had
fragmented at one point and some bees were left behind and froze in
place right next to patches of capped honey left in the third box
(dead clusters about the size of two fists together) but the bulk had
moved to the lower deep, bottom of the second and were occupying that.
So we'll see what happens. The point is sometimes you can do
everything "right" (whatever that means) and still loose colonies.
There was research done by the USDA on various methods for heating
colonies in the 1940s-1950s (link to paper on Beesource below)

http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/electric-heating-of-honey-bee-hives/

>> sbjoh...@aol.com <javascript:>

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Rich Schneider
Capital Bee Supply, LLC
Manufacturers and Purveyors of Fine Beekeeping Equipment
201 Acacia Ln
Madison, WI 53716-3233
608-444-1493
www.capitalbeesupply.com

[Mary Celley]

The bees are just plain freezing to death this year. It has been so brutal! Many people are going to find their hives dead this year no matter what one did. It is depressing, hives that were alive two weeks ago are now frozen. It is just too long to maintain heat in a colony this winter.  Mary.....Beecharmer-Beekeeper.

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 12:06:11 PM UTC-6, Steve wrote:

[sbjoh...@aol.com]

Thanks, Diane. I'm now seeing that lots of bee colonies are dying in the winter, so that must mean no one knows what they are doing, right?  -grin-   I think that

 
My styrofoam windbreak is spaced about 6 inches from three sides and top of the hive.  The remaining side, the front of the hive facing south, is completely open - so ventilation should be excellent but winds from the north blocked.

My heating idea is really quite simple and will only require a few minutes of work for me to implement.  Unlike beekeeping, no one can claim I don't know what I am doing with electronics!    The heater element is a metal rectangle about 3"x4"x1/4".  Like this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-12V-Electric-Heater-for-bee-hives-save-up-to-15kg-honey-per-season-/320958631538

The controller can operate one or several heaters, turning them on/off together at a settable temperature like a thermostat, based on the reading on a remote sensor (similar to the one shown in the ebay offering).

I've now got the cable and parts necessary to bring AC power to the shed, and I've got the heating system set up on the bench to make sure everything is working as it should.  I should be ready to install it when the weather breaks in the spring when I clean out the hives in readiness for new packages of bees to arrive.

[sbjoh...@aol.com]

Thanks for the ideas.  I used powdered sugar and mite-strips to combat the mites.  I now regret leaving the bottom board partially open.  And my styrofoam windbreaks are spaced about 6 inches from three sides and top of the hive.  The remaining side, the front of the hive facing south, is completely open - so ventilation should be excellent but winds from the north blocked.

Steve

sbjoh...@aol.com
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-----Original Message-----
From: N. Andersen <elrodh...@gmail.com>
To: madbees <mad...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Feb 10, 2014 12:42 pm
Subject: [madbees] Re: Electric heating for hives

[sbjoh...@aol.com]

Interesting observations on the cluster separation.  Maybe this breakup happens right at the last moment when the bees realize they are failing to maintain the necessary temperature.

Thanks also for the link to information on the 1950s research on heating hives.

Steve

sbjoh...@aol.com

http://www.wd8das.net/
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-----Original Message-----
From: capitalbeesupply tds.net <capitalb...@tds.net>
To: madbees <mad...@googlegroups.com>

[Paul Zelenski]

I leave my sbb completely open all year and have had pretty good overwintering success. I am a bit worried about this year. I had lost 3 hives so far, but expected to lose those and a couple more because they were weak going into fall. 

[jeanne hansen]

Steve, 

Think of what happens to a screened bottom board in winter - the very first bees to die in late autumn fall down on it and cover over the screen.  So a screened bottom board really isn't an open window letting a huge draft up into the hive.  Rather, it is a way for moisture to seep out of the hive, and a way for that layer of dead bees to dry out rather than mold.  I don't believe you need to regret leaving your bottom board partially open.  

By the way, does anyone know of any research studies done on this subject??

 

Thanks!

Jeanne Hansen

824 Jacobson Ave

Madison, WI 53714

608-244-5094

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From: "sbjoh...@aol.com" <sbjoh...@aol.com>
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [madbees] Re: Electric heating for hives

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[jbessetti]

When were screened bottom boards "invented" and why?

Sent from my U.S. Cellular® Smartphone

[N. Andersen]

Jeanne's comment about dead bees brings up an interesting point.  Many people have both an upper and lower entrance.  But whatever your lower entrance is, it usually gets clogged with dead bees and ice, or snow, which means you really don't have the ventilation you thought you had.  Which is why I always have a 1" or so hole cut in all my brood boxes.  In other words, a lower, middle and upper entrance.  I also put a 2-3"shim at the top of each hive to accommodate feeding.  To be honest, the bees spend the entire winter in or immediately below the dead space at the top, and the lower brood box is relegated to mostly storing dead bees and little else.   I can't tell you that this is a superior plan to anything anyone else is doing, but the middle entrance has some logical appeal to it.  I wonder if the dead space may have an advantage too.  Anyways, something to think about for next winter.

[jeanne hansen]

Speaking of dead space below the cluster - Liz Vanoeski, with life-long beekeeping experience, has deeps for brood boxes, but she always has a medium of old, empty combs below them (right on the bottom board.)  The bees generally don't use that box - it is just dead space.  She feels her hives are better for that space.

I like the idea, but I have never implemented it, because it makes my hive that much taller and harder to manipulate.

 

Thanks!

Jeanne Hansen

824 Jacobson Ave

Madison, WI 53714

608-244-5094

---

From: N. Andersen <elrodh...@gmail.com>
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Cc: jeanne hansen <jeanniea...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 10:27 PM
Subject: [madbees] Re: screened bottom boards

Jeanne's comment about dead bees brings up an interesting point.  Many people have both an upper and lower entrance.  But whatever your lower entrance is, it usually gets clogged with dead bees and ice, or snow, which means you really don't have the ventilation you thought you had.  Which is why I always have a 1" or so hole cut in all my brood boxes.  In other words, a lower, middle and upper entrance.  I also put a 2-3"shim at the top of each hive to accommodate feeding.  To be honest, the bees spend the entire winter in or immediately below the dead space at the top, and the lower brood box is relegated to mostly storing dead bees and little else.   I can't tell you that this is a superior plan to anything anyone else is doing, but the middle entrance has some logical appeal to it.  I wonder if the dead space may have an advantage too.  Anyways, something to think about for next winter.

--

[Paul Zelenski]

My hives end up that way as well. I give my hives a medium and two deeps all summer as brood space. They usually fill the bottom medium with pollen, which they eat up in the fall. This leaves some empty space and draft protection during winter. I think it is especially good since I leave my sbb open all winter. I also put a 3" rim on top that has 10# of sugar, which leaves a fair amount of dead air on top as well. 

[Brad Krantz]

Do you wrap your boxes in the winter, & do you do anything to stop a direct wind into the upper entrances.

 

Thanks

 

Brad Krantz

U W Provision Company

2315 Pleasantview Road

Middleton WI 53562

800-832-0517

Brad....@uwprovision.com

You run with those that “Run with the Bulls”

[Josh Whitlock]

We wrapped with tar paper our first 2 years. This year I didn't get time to. But we always use straw bales to make a wind break. This year i put them on all 4 sides but left the front with the 3/4" top entrace uncovered (bale is lower than the entrance).

Josh

 

Josh Whitlock

bwa...@yahoo.com 
far...@WanderingPeacockFarm.com
www.WanderingPeacockFarm.com
Reeseville, WI 

---

From: Brad Krantz <Brad....@uwprovision.com>
To: "mad...@googlegroups.com" <mad...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 11:20 AM
Subject: RE: [madbees] Re: screened bottom boards

[jeanne hansen]

I for one do not wrap my hives.  Since my upper entrance is in the rim of the inner cover, it is covered by the outer cover hanging over it.  I push the outer cover forward so there is plenty of space for the bees to squeeze out.

 

Thanks!

Jeanne Hansen

824 Jacobson Ave

Madison, WI 53714

608-244-5094

From: Brad Krantz <Brad....@uwprovision.com>
To: "mad...@googlegroups.com" <mad...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 11:20 AM

Subject: RE: [madbees] Re: screened bottom boards