First year hives - Splits and honey

[Barbara]

First year keeper here!  I have a nuc colony that is doing well - they have two full deeps, and I added a honey super.  They had a lot of nectar in the second deep before I got the super on, so I'm hopeful they fill it quickly.  What are people's preferences/opinions on splitting or harvesting from a first year hive?  Do you split based on signs of swarming?

I have a second hive I started from a package pretty late, so they got their second deep last weekend.

[Jeff Steinhauer]

Hey Barbara,
I'll get the responses started.  During my check on Friday, my queen was finally in the bottom box.  I move some frames of capped larva to the bottom box, and the nectar packed frames out of the brood nest. I found a couple empty queen cups on the edge of frames.  When I check again this week, I'll see if they have become populated.  If so, then I'll split the hive by taking my old queen and a couple frames of brood and food frames and place them in a five frame nuc box.  Depending on the number of queen cells and the size of my colony, I might make additional splits.  I hope this helps jump start additional responses.

I wouldn't worry about pulling honey yet.  You can always do that later, either by the box full or individual frames.  Please remember that honey is the bees preserves for the long cold winter months.  If you pull honey, you'll have to supplement their food.

Keep up the good work.
Best wishes,
Jeff S.

[Scott Johnson]

Hi Barbara,

Congrats on the strong hive your first year.

I'll jump on Jeff's beginning here.

I'd say split that strong hive. My first year, I had exactly the same thing: a nuc that filled two deep boxes. We had a presentation on OTS queen rearing at my local bee group and an old-timer leaned over to me and said he wished he had been doing that since his first year.

Here's what I did and would recommend: Remove the queen and two frames of capped brood from the original hive. Be sure to leave frames of eggs in the original hive. Shake a frame or two of nurse bees into the nuc, and give them two frames of honey and pollen. Set this elsewhere in the apiary and treat it as a nuc. All the field bees will fly back to the original hive. That hive is queenless and will raise a queen from the <36-hr-old larvae over the next two weeks. At about 10 days you can go in and cut down all but the best-looking two queen cells to reduce the likelihood of swarming. She'll emerge, mate, and start laying about four weeks after the date of the split. During this month, the hive will have less and less brood to care for and will therefore start to sock away honey, so keep an eye on the supers and add them as needed.

The only warning is that when you say you have a hive with two deeps full, does that mean of brood, honey, or a combo? If it is just brood, then split it but put a deep on top. When the new queen starts laying, you want to have at least one deep full of honey before you have them filling supers. You'll also want an empty deep on the bottom so she can fill it full of brood and repopulate the hive. So your arrangement of the hive would be (bottom to top):

Day 1 (split): Deep (brood), Deep (honey)*

Day 10: Deep (less brood), Deep (honey), Super (if one deep is full of honey)

As needed: More supers

Day 28 (or so): Deep (with drawn, empty combs), Deep (full of honey), Supers

*You might need to rearrange the hive to segregate empty frames of drawn comb and combs of honey.

Good luck!

========================================
Scott Johnson Ph.D.

Director
Low Technology Institute

========================================

Am Mi., 9. Juni 2021 um 12:47 Uhr schrieb Barbara <bver...@gmail.com>:

First year keeper here!  I have a nuc colony that is doing well - they have two full deeps, and I added a honey super.  They had a lot of nectar in the second deep before I got the super on, so I'm hopeful they fill it quickly.  What are people's preferences/opinions on splitting or harvesting from a first year hive?  Do you split based on signs of swarming?

I have a second hive I started from a package pretty late, so they got their second deep last weekend.

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[marvin]

The general recommendation is to not split first year hives.  You want them to build up strong for overwintering.  (seems like an odd thing to talk about right now in this heat).  If you have a boomer, give them a third brood box or just keep adding on supers.  As a first year beekeeper, I imagine you're putting on undrawn foundation.   That hive is a fantastic opportunity for you to develop an arsenal of drawn comb for future years.  Put the girls to work.   Harvesting, sure.  Just leave about 80-100libs on for winter.  Also keep in mind:  we're in a drought situation.  The current honey flow seems good now, but may fizzle out if the rain doesn't start coming through.  So your hive and honey growth may slow considerably as summer progresses.  

[Paul Zelenski]

The general recommendation is to not split or get honey, but …. The bees don’t always read the books.

If you have a hive now that is filling 2 deeps, it is possible to split them. I will sell 5 frame nucs to people until the beginning of July. After that I figure it is too late for them to build up before winter. Also, if you think your hive that is 1 D will be find for winter, it only makes sense that your hive of 2 deeps could become two hives of 1 D and be fine.

Of course, there is some risk and some amount of expertise needed to successfully make a split (Don’t be scared, it’s not that hard), so it really depends if you want to take that on your first year.

It also depends if you buy a queen for your split or expect them to raise their own. Trevor has some good queens available, so purchasing those will save your hive about of month of stagnation while they raise their own.

If you don’t split, you’ll just need to be add a lot of space to keep up with them so they don’t swarm, but you’ll almost certainly be able to harvest honey.

 

So, as with all beekeeping, there are a lot of decisions to make based on your goals and preferences. I think splitting or not splitting are both the right answer depending on what you want, how much risk you want to take, and how much you want to bite off your first year.

 

Good luck.

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[trex raptor]

I fall into the group of splitting them hard. If I had two productive colonies like that, then I would focus on getting them to draw frames until mid July and then split them down. By that point in the season, the parent colony has all the foragers they need to keep up with the flow and any bee emerging after that won't become a forager in time before the flow is over. Also, making splits on a flow is easier since robbing is at a minimum threat level. Two production colonies easily becomes 6 to go into winter if you feed them syrup and sub through mid-August and September. Going into winter with two colonies is a big disadvantage since it is a coin toss on whether they will survive or not. If by chance all 6 survive and you don't want that many colonies, sell a few in the spring and pay off all that woodenware and supplies. 

Have you considered how you plan to test and treat for varroa yet?

-Trevor

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[marvin]

The real question(s) on this is what level of support are you willing to provide to get splits up to speed for winter?  Like 1)  Do you have enough drawn comb for the new queen(s) to dig in?  2)  If not, are you willing to feed during the summer to get that comb drawn?  3) Especially if the drought really takes hold?  (you could be feeding alot!) 4) Are you willing to buy queens for the splits?  Those are all big decisions, (number three is getting into scary territory)  both in time and money.  The alternative is to let them rip as is, get them to draw out a supply of new comb, get them to overwinter (no small trick, I admit) and then do more traditional splits next May 1 having both adequate time and drawn comb to tilt towards success.   For a first year beekeeper, you're dancing with a tricky situation.   Tread carefully.  

[Joseph Bessetti]

I have to echo this advice.

First year beekeeper has enough challenges to navigate already.  People talk about big honey harvests, but in your first year you don't even know if your location will support good production.  The spring flow is often good everywhere, so it's not a good indicator of how the rest of the season will go.

Drawn comb is usually the biggest limiting factor for the new keeper.  When you make a split, the queenless half will totally stop drawing comb and the queenright half will be reduced enough in numbers that drawing of new comb will be reduced substantially.   There isn't much new comb drawn out past July unless you feed heavily.  If you're feeding heavily you don't learn much about your local flows the rest of the season and you will contaminate any honey they are producing.  

My rule of thumb is usually this:   Don't split your hives beyond their ability to completely draw out the frames needed to fully stock the winter hive configuration for both colonies with drawn comb!  If you aren't sure, don't split.   Your goal should be to get at least one hive through summer in good shape for winter.  I've watched a lot of beekeepers split hives in this situation and end up with few or none of their hives in good shape for winter.  Undrawn frames can't be used to store anything for winter, and there will be a point mid-summer where most colonies stop drawing new comb.  New beekeepers get excited about how great their colony is doing in May and June and make decisions based on the assumption that the rest of the summer will be the same.   It most likely won't be.

Joe

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Subject: Re: [madbees] First year hives - Splits and honey

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[Barbara]

Well, seems like I waited too long.  My bees swarmed this afternoon.  I located them, and they are about 20 - 30 feet up in a tree. My (very understanding) husband helped me suspend a nuc box near them, and I'll track them through this storm.  If they don't move into the nuc, we'll see if our ladder is sufficient!

(Swarm is framed by the hickory [or walnut?] leaves in photo)

[Joseph Bessetti]

One of those other challenges that the new beekeeper needs to navigate in their first years is managing to reduce or prevent swarming (if it's important to you) .  Splitting shouldn't be the only tool in your toolbox for this.

When you inspect your hive you may find that the super placed on it recently has been ignored or only partially filled and the broodnest is still plugged up with nectar.  Once space in the brood boxes got filled with nectar and the queen had less space to lay they were probably already destined to swarm on you, and you needed to insert empty combs or frames into the broodnest in order to disuade them from swarming.  It was already too late to simply add supers as the broodnest was already filling up with nectar.

Side note:  unless it is a small swarm, a nuc box probably won't attract them.   A larger box with some drawn comb and some lemongrass oil or swarm commander will usually attract them if they haven't already found another new home. (If they are still there tomorrow morning I could loan you a box.)

Regards,

Joe

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[Greg V]

These package bees are, indeed, often prone to explosive growth and quick swarming.

Last year I caught a swarm in June and they promptly swarmed on me in July.

So, the anti-swarming splitting is a good idea - even if they are to be combined back for the winter.

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[Barbara]

Hi Joe!

Thanks for the offer.  I scored quite a bit of used equipment not too long ago, so I will put another box nearby with some old drawn comb that came with the equipment.

I did notice A LOT of nectar in the upper brood box, so I probably got my super on too late.  Pulling those frames and adding empty comb probably would have helped, as I'm sure the queen was tight on space.  This is a great learning experience at least!  Fingers crossed I can catch them.

[Barbara]

Well, my swarm flew off that day, and not into one of my traps.  Anyone west of the Festge Park area, check your swarm traps!

I've had trouble getting my bees to draw on the supers; I think now that the swarm moved out, they aren't as eager to expand.

[John Thompson]

Try putting the super between the deeps for a short while. Get them drawing it out, and it's ok if the queen lays a few eggs in it 

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[jeanne hansen]

Plus, if there is no nectar flow going on, the bees won't draw out combs.  They only draw out comb to correspond with the amount of nectar coming into the hive.

Jeanne Hansen

824 Jacobson Ave

Madison, WI 53714

608-244-5094

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[Joseph Bessetti]

This hive just swarmed.  It's not going to draw comb even if there is a strong nectar flow.

Most of the bees of the right age to make wax left with the swarm, and with no laying queen they have plenty of space to store nectar, so they have no need for new comb right now.  

If they have enough new bees emerge and there the nectar flow continues you might see them draw some comb once your new queen gets laying, but probably not until then.

Joe

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[Jeff Steinhauer]

Barbara,

You can use your second hive to keep up with building wax.  Insert a frame at the edge of the brood nest, and they will draw it out.  You can then supplement your swarmed hive, add more boxes to move the frames up or pull them off for storage and use later.  I have a small box that I place in my chest freezer, so I don't have to worry about pests and such.

Best wishes,
Cheers,
Jeff S.