Combining a laying worker hive

[Mary R Williams]

Would like to hear folks' thoughts on the pros and cons of using the newspaper method to combine a laying worker hive with a split I made last month--to which I gave a new VHS queen and is doing very well.  I've tried twice to re-queen the laying worker hive with several frames of brood and nurse bees. But, all I have to show for the effort is a lot of workers and capped drones.  

Thoughts on whether to combine or just give it up and shake them out? 

Thanks,

Mary Rose

[Paul Zelenski]

I have never had any problem with combining laying workers with a queenright hive. Even when the queenright hive was a nuc and the laying workers were 2 deeps.  So, in my experience combining sounds like a great idea. That said, many others have had worse outcomes, so I will let them chime in.

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[Joseph Bessetti]

I would just shake them out in front of any reasonably strong hive.  Put the frames in any hive of your choosing and remove the hive and stand.   The shook bees are homeless and will take up residence somewhere else, usually the hive you shake them in front of.     
 
The newspaper method works too, but if you want the bees in one hive and the frames in another this will achieve it.
 
Joe
 

 

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From: paulze...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [madbees] Combining a laying worker hive
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2016 15:19:12 -0500
To: mad...@googlegroups.com

[Matthew Hennek]

I had a bad experience with a queen killing nuc this year.  Every queen I put in there they balled/killed.  The nuc was not queen right.  I even tried putting a full frame of bees with a queen in there and they balled her (i pulled her before they could kill her).  

I got tired of them (i was a bit upset at this point), shook them out into an empty nuc box, sprayed them down with sugar water and put on the ground in front of a hive and let them crawl back .  This time it worked.

I would not try to combine them and shake them out as Joe recommended.

[jeanne hansen]

Give it up, shake the bees out in your apiary (where you won't step on them) and take away completely their old hive, so they have no more familiar home.  When they have all found new homes in other hives after a few days - THEN take a frame of brood from each viable hive and give it to the nuc.  When you have numbers of hives, it is too much effort to try and save one laying worker hive.  

You wanted opinions, right??

 

Thanks!
Jeanne Hansen
824 Jacobson Ave
Madison, WI 53714
608-244-5094

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From: Mary R Williams <will...@uwplatt.edu>
To: madbees <mad...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 2:58 PM
Subject: [madbees] Combining a laying worker hive

[jeanne hansen]

If combining hives is so easy, what is all the talk about newspaper combines???

It sounds like you just chuck them together, in any ratio of bees, and it works fine.

How do you explain the enthusiasm for newspaper??  Is it all just a cozy idea with no proof??

 

Thanks!
Jeanne Hansen
824 Jacobson Ave
Madison, WI 53714
608-244-5094

---

From: Paul Zelenski <paulze...@gmail.com>
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: [madbees] Combining a laying worker hive

[Paul Zelenski]

When I said making combines is easy, I meant newspaper combines. I always do newspaper combines. Although, I have started to wonder how long it really takes them to chew away the paper in the summer when it's warm. I think it is hours rather than days, but whatever it is, it is enough time to make a successful combine. 

[Joseph Bessetti]

And with few exceptions, it works.   Though I'm starting to feel that bees are more amenable to combining than most beekeepers think they are.  Perhaps some of the time we could leave the newspaper out and just slap them together and achieve the same result.  But why risk it? 
 
Maybe the newspaper is part of the process just to give the beekeeper the confidence that it will work?
 
Joe
 

---

From: paulze...@gmail.com

Subject: Re: [madbees] Combining a laying worker hive

Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 08:17:46 -0500
To: mad...@googlegroups.com

When I said making combines is easy, I meant newspaper combines. I always do newspaper combines. Although, I have started to wonder how long it really takes them to chew away the paper in the summer when it's warm. I think it is hours rather than days, but whatever it is, it is enough time to make a successful combine. 

On Jul 14, 2016, at 8:43 PM, 'jeanne hansen' via madbees <mad...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

If combining hives is so easy, what is all the talk about newspaper combines???

It sounds like you just chuck them together, in any ratio of bees, and it works fine.

How do you explain the enthusiasm for newspaper??  Is it all just a cozy idea with no proof??

 

Thanks!
Jeanne Hansen
824 Jacobson Ave
Madison, WI 53714

608-244-5094

[James]

Laying worker hives, like queens, have variable levels of attachment to what they percieve to be the queen.  Some laying worker hives you can flip, others not.  (Especially if you catch them early).  The fact that you tried to flip this one twice and failed tells me they're pretty attached to what they're doing.  So I wouldn't waste something as valuable as a VHS split on them.  That can be built up this year and will be a dandy hive for going into next winter and beyond.  I'd take the laying hive a couple of hundred yards out and shake them out, freeze the frames and take the loss.

[James]

I don't think its a cozy, unproven idea at all.  It's a nice slow introduction controlled at the bees comfort level.  Sometimes they do it real quick, other times slower.  I've never had it fail.  But if you just plop a box of bees on another, it's generally mayhem.  Why gamble?

[jeanne hansen]

Paul Oliphant says bees are  more amenable to combining than most beekeepers think.  If you add a tiny amount of bees to a big hive, they can be seen as foreigners, but if you take a frame covered with bees from each of 5 hives, for example, and stick them all together in one box, there will be such confusion that no fighting will happen.  The message is, similar amounts of bees can be mixed together, especially on the nuc scale.  

Perhaps adding one large hive to the top of another large hive isn't advisable, I've always used newspaper there.

 

Thanks!
Jeanne Hansen
824 Jacobson Ave
Madison, WI 53714
608-244-5094

---

From: Joseph Bessetti <jbes...@hotmail.com>
To: "mad...@googlegroups.com" <mad...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2016 8:46 AM
Subject: RE: [madbees] Combining a laying worker hive

And with few exceptions, it works.   Though I'm starting to feel that bees are more amenable to combining than most beekeepers think they are.  Perhaps some of the time we could leave the newspaper out and just slap them together and achieve the same result.  But why risk it? 
 
Maybe the newspaper is part of the process just to give the beekeeper the confidence that it will work?
 
Joe
 

---

From: paulze...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [madbees] Combining a laying worker hive
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 08:17:46 -0500
To: mad...@googlegroups.com

When I said making combines is easy, I meant newspaper combines. I always do newspaper combines. Although, I have started to wonder how long it really takes them to chew away the paper in the summer when it's warm. I think it is hours rather than days, but whatever it is, it is enough time to make a successful combine. 

On Jul 14, 2016, at 8:43 PM, 'jeanne hansen' via madbees <mad...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

If combining hives is so easy, what is all the talk about newspaper combines???

It sounds like you just chuck them together, in any ratio of bees, and it works fine.

How do you explain the enthusiasm for newspaper??  Is it all just a cozy idea with no proof??

 

Thanks!
Jeanne Hansen
824 Jacobson Ave
Madison, WI 53714

608-244-5094

[Joseph Bessetti]

Yep.  I think confusion/chaos is part of what helps make it work.  Also, smoke.  Just as smoke masks smells that keep the bees from attacking the beekeeper, I think it keeps the bees from distinguishing each other temporarily too.  By the time the "smoke clears" the hives are combined and the battle lines have been lost.  The bees simply reorganize based on the new state they find themselves in.
 
As I read many of the older books on beekeeping I always find valuable little nuggets of information on topics like this and many others.
 
Joe
 

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Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 14:34:48 +0000
From: mad...@googlegroups.com
To: mad...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [madbees] Combining a laying worker hive

Paul Oliphant says bees are  more amenable to combining than most beekeepers think.  If you add a tiny amount of bees to a big hive, they can be seen as foreigners, but if you take a frame covered with bees from each of 5 hives, for example, and stick them all together in one box, there will be such confusion that no fighting will happen.  The message is, similar amounts of bees can be mixed together, especially on the nuc scale.  

Perhaps adding one large hive to the top of another large hive isn't advisable, I've always used newspaper there.

 

Thanks!
Jeanne Hansen
824 Jacobson Ave
Madison, WI 53714

608-244-5094

---

From: Joseph Bessetti <jbes...@hotmail.com>
To: "mad...@googlegroups.com" <mad...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2016 8:46 AM
Subject: RE: [madbees] Combining a laying worker hive

And with few exceptions, it works.   Though I'm starting to feel that bees are more amenable to combining than most beekeepers think they are.  Perhaps some of the time we could leave the newspaper out and just slap them together and achieve the same result.  But why risk it? 
 
Maybe the newspaper is part of the process just to give the beekeeper the confidence that it will work?
 
Joe
 

---

From: paulze...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [madbees] Combining a laying worker hive
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 08:17:46 -0500
To: mad...@googlegroups.com

When I said making combines is easy, I meant newspaper combines. I always do newspaper combines. Although, I have started to wonder how long it really takes them to chew away the paper in the summer when it's warm. I think it is hours rather than days, but whatever it is, it is enough time to make a successful combine. 

On Jul 14, 2016, at 8:43 PM, 'jeanne hansen' via madbees <mad...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

If combining hives is so easy, what is all the talk about newspaper combines???

It sounds like you just chuck them together, in any ratio of bees, and it works fine.

How do you explain the enthusiasm for newspaper??  Is it all just a cozy idea with no proof??

 

Thanks!
Jeanne Hansen
824 Jacobson Ave
Madison, WI 53714

608-244-5094

[Mary R Williams]

Thanks all for your input. I'll take the consensus advice and shake them out rather than trying to combine. 

I appreciate your help.

Mary Rose

---

From: James <hendri...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2016 8:53 AM
To: madbees
Cc: Mary R Williams
Subject: Re: Combining a laying worker hive

 

[Juli and Chris McGuire]

I've been storing unused hive boxes with drawn-out frames in my house to
avoid wax moths. This year it didn't work: 4-5 brood boxes are a
complete mess. I have frames with plastic foundation. Can I save and
reuse them if I scrape off all the debris or shall I destine them to the
burn pile?
How do people store their unused hive boxes to avoid this problem?

Thank you!
Juli McGuire
Belmont, WI

[Tom Borchardt]

I have tried combining with and without newspaper.  Both seem to work, however, there is a lot of fighting when combining without using newspaper, so now I just always use a single sheet of newspaper with a few slits poked in with my hive tool.  This technique has worked for me when combining a small laying worker colony with another fairly weak colony that was in need of more bees.  The resulting combined colony is now a good strong honey producing colony.  So two "troubled" colonies became one healthy productive colony.

I would be reluctant to combine a laying worker colony with a good strong existing colony, since there is really nothing to gain. 

Tom B.

[harold steinberg]

I keep mine sealed in a plastic bag. I fold it over nicely and seal it with packing tape.

I HATE THOSE ^%%$$## MOTHS!!!! I burn wood and they even hatched out and ate my wax based fire starters that I keep out in the garage. ARGH!

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H. Adam Steinberg
7904 Bowman Rd
Lodi, WI 53555
608/592-2366

[Tim Aure]

I also think transferring  frames during a honey flow vs a nectar dearth affects the defensiveness and territorial  protection of the hive🤔

Tim

Sent from my iPhone

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[jeanne hansen]

The wax moths lay their eggs in the combs during the summer.  I store my unused boxes with drawn-out combs out of doors during a period of extreme cold during, which kills most of the moth eggs.   Then I bring them inside.  About this time of year, there is sometimes one or two eggs still viable, which hatch and make a mess.

In general, you can give those combs to the bees, and they will clean them up faster than drawing out new combs.

 

Thanks!
Jeanne Hansen
824 Jacobson Ave
Madison, WI 53714
608-244-5094

---

From: Juli and Chris McGuire <juli...@lagrant.net>
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2016 2:26 PM
Subject: [madbees] Wax moth

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[lin...@tds.net]

I lost about 20 boxes to wax moth. I burned them. They were totally wrecked. Larry

----- Original Message -----
From: "Juli and Chris McGuire" <juli...@lagrant.net>
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2016 2:26:52 PM
Subject: [madbees] Wax moth

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